COH: Europe In Ruins

I think I am alone with Tank Reapers, but I am not sure if its working right,

Right now, in my last game on crossroads. I killed a vet 3 Panzer IV,
With: 4 Bazooka shots from my 2 ranger squads (each ranger squad got 2 Zokas if I remember right) and 1 hit for a Allied At gun. (Mine also)

the rangers hitted the Panzer IV from the side (It had skirts) and my At gun hit it one time from front.
After I got my Tank Reapers, my Ranger squads just move around and kill any armor,

My vet 2 Allied at gun killed a Pe half tack in one shot (hit the side)

No AP rounds, can we have a cheek if this works like it should?
If it works like it should, I recommend to lower dmg from 20% to like 15% or lower.

Tank reapers:
20% more dmg
33% penetration
25% more accurate

sounds like penetration is super and damage is even better.

Duck, you may end up being right about this, but the only thing I would caution is that several other doctrine T4s are very powerful right now, and yet others seem like they might be very "blah" at best.

My point is, is it a question of bringing the "blah" ones up to the usefulness of the really good ones (Tank Reapers, Crete Veterans, Heat Rounds, Panzer Zeal, for example), or bringing the good ones down to be more "blah"?  Or perhaps more appropriately - some combination of both.

Although to be honest, one thing I would expect from Tank Reapers is a vet 2 ATG one-shotting a halftrack.  When they start one-shotting light armor vehicles I would be a bit more concerned.  And they already might be doing that with AP rounds for all I know.

an atg kills a halftrack in two shots. with 20% more damage it's hard that you oneshot halftracks, maybe you scored a critic?

150*1.5(modifier vs HT armor)*1.2(TR) = 270 DMG.
300 HP on a halftrack.
Theorethicaly - not possible until you get another 5 percent damage boost from vet ;P.

So vet 3 ATG, yes, vet 2 ATG, no?  Theoretically.  Duck's example must have been a critical?  Or it already had slight damage on it?  Or small arms fire coincided with the ATG shot?  In any event, its ballpark to one-shotting it.

How do you see if its a cirical or not?

I scouted with a jeep, the at auto shot (due the half track was in range) and boom, dead

I don't think that you can?  I think the only way is to rely on what the halftrack HP is, and how much damage the ATG is supposed to do after applying appropriate buffs.

As Mysthalin has shown, unless the stats are incorrect, it either had to be a critical or already damaged, or there was some other source of incoming damage not accounted for. 

hmmm. Well I make some replays then of games with Tank reapers, you judge yourslef :P

lowering it lower than 20 per would make it useless as a T4 considering some axis T4s out there...  so thats not good imho..

anyways, on just a base damage number..

TR zook would be 90 Damage?  90x4=360
TR 57mm would be 180 damage?   

360+180=540 damage points.

isnt a base mk4 600hp?  this of course doesnt take a vet3 mk4 buffs, or any silly modifiers that say a zook or 57mm would have against a mk4.. and vet3 rangers get 10per damage buff too..

I wouldn't mind seeing Tank Reapers and a couple axis T4's toned down a bit as long as it they were done together.

I wouldn't mind seeing Next Gen or a few armor T4's kicked up a notch...why don't we do a bit of both?

imho, all these doctirne unit buffs actually ruins the gameplay, but thats just me.. she allow doct to give you weapons, and let vet take care of some buffs.

Next Gen Vehicles will be undergoing a change.

Yay!

I can be a Next Gen fanboy again, then?  ;D

The Zooks have a 1.6 dam modifier against the P4. With the tank reaper ability each zook does 144 dam (Piats do a standard damage of 144 to P4s and shreks do 120 dam to Shermans). A flanking zook squad has always been very very deadly. People just don’t recognize that. 

1.6 against non skirted.. 1.2 against skirted. 

If it hits, and then if it penetrates heh..

okay, so now zooks are as good as schrecks? Sounds like fun :D I've almost got my t4 can't wait. Tanks will ph33r me again!

Zooks aren't as good as shreks, not by a long shot.  You have to get behind a tank, and close to it to actually do real damage.  Unlike shreks, which are more like a prototype of the US Javelin AT Missile system.

Not with TR freek.

More damage than schrecks,accuracy and penetration buffs.

I hate tank reapers. Always have, always will, ridiculous concept. It's an automatic win against half of a wehrmacht player's army.

I like tank reapers. Always have, always will, awesome concept. It's an automatic win against half of a wehrmacht player's army.

I didn't know that tank reapers affected atg as well? if so, combined with the ridiculous range on the american atg, thats kind of crazy. Can I get an upgrade to have a few more gears in reverse for my tanks? seems only fair...

I see what you did there.

Doesn't the Pak 38 have exactly the same range as the 57mm?

that's erroneous. it always feels like it has greater range, therefore it does. don't you see?

When I woke up this morning, I could have swear that my winy wee was 16 inches, It only measured 7 inches.

Sometimes it seems longer that it is, facts mates, facts

Err...hello?

It amuses me what he did there.  Let's act on his suggestion, not yours.

I like what Malevolence did there. Let's act on his suggestion, not yours.

I challenge you to a duel, sir!

Swords, guns, or Yu-Gi-Oh?

*Munches popcorn*

Pistols at dawn!

(Captain vs. Wehr Officer?  We can even use arty call-ins to make it even MORE fun!)

well PE HTs and Wehr tanks stand no chance anymore...back to the drawing  board for my company.

How dare you insult my honor you son of a Harlot! I accept your challenge!


(shotugn wehr officer)

You're on.  We should both just build a company with only an officer, or play a game where we can duel it out.  We'll see who wins.  8)

Deal, let me figure out how to give myself an LMG... err i mean Long barreld fully automatic luger

I will win because I'll use brad's big ass to crush both your officers.

I'll play fair.  My webley vs. whatever you can come up with.

FOO is just really big webley rounds from the sky, by the way...

After doing some hands-on research into this, here are my thoughts: Alright, never mind trying to attack with tanks against this, which is suicide faster than you can say wtf. 2 atg sniped 2 of my lmg gren squads down to 1 man each. I thought having german steel would help a little. Not at ALL. every single shot penetrated (front armor, even on a stug), and did huge amounts of hp damage. I would like to see either the tank reaper boost to penetration brought down to 15% (matching german steel) or german steel brought up to 33% less penetration (matching tank reapers). ATG creeps become unstoppable, since the allied player knows their atgs will never miss, or not penetrate. I imagine that anyone not having german steel would rage quit once they find out their tanks are little better than half tracks. I don't even want to mention what happened to my two PE allies and their already non-existent armor. Whoever made tank reapers do 33% more penetration would easily get a job on the vanilla coh reliq balance team...  ::)

dear Jinker,

Tank Reapers was in regular EIR as well.  It was only for AT guns then I believe.  Anyways, this is why you can't just rush P4's and whatnot into the front...use more infantry in your company.  Adjust, it is beatable, I promise.  Try a sniper or some mortars.

Simple answer to 'unstoppable' atg w/ tank reapers.

Axis mortar/nebel w/ infantry.  Done, finished, end of story.


You can occasionally beat atg's with a tank, it's just that tank reapers makes that a losing proposition more of the time.  Send your tanks around the atg's though... not at them lol.

L2play newb?

Oh, and I believe in old EiR it was something like 70% health, damage, and penetration... it truly lived up to it's name (kinda too well, but w/e).  So, TR has already been nerfed, and it's a t4 so it should be something *good* for allies.

so uh what about PE? Everyone keeps listing counters that are WM specific... It sounds like the paper-thin armor of the entire PE army is going to get buttfucked  :P

If you can dodge a ball, you can dodge a 57mm round?

Note

Tank reapers sux, if you charge with inf all the time.

captain we need MOAR phase-through!!!!  ;D

I do believe Jinker has at least a semblence of a point.

Tank Reapers needs to be brought in line with German Steel a bit better. They're both T4s, but Tank Reapers is clearly superior.

Tank Reapers buffs a very small portion of your army (anti tank units) wheras German Steel buffs a much more all-purpose part of your army (can go for panthers for AT or ostwinds for AI or p4's for a combination)

But what about PE?
We already have paper thin shit (except Panther and Jagd). Think about the little people, the PE people.
Vote for me!

yah, u get to see what its like driving around with shermans and m10s and stuff.

You mean the shit that's invulnerable to small arms fire? Play a different army if you hate it so much.

why try to ruin a good t4... iam spending freaking 100pp on it.. only effects AT of my army.. just means, maybe you will have to beat me by something other than a tank rush..

Agree with Mgallun74.
The only good T4 for US infantry doctrine and I'm spending my 100pp on it too.

wth are you talking about man? Shermans and M10s can survive 2 shots from AT guns, most of PE from the beginning to the end of this mod (hopefully not) dies from two hits maximum from AT guns, and goodgod our halftracks will die twice as fast now.
would you stop that plz, you said something like that in another post. All i am asking is for a little bit of survivability in the PE stuff. Can i get some PE back up here plz?

They are half tracks.. duh.  Don't charge atgs with them.  Charge an mg w/ inf and surprise you die.  Why the outcry about this?

Oh, and stop comparing halftracks to *tanks*.  Your pIV IST can survive quite a few atg shots, same w/ your panther. 

I have no problem w/ tank reapers keeping WM tank rushes in check (frankly I see too many ppl trying to use p4s alone and then bitching when they die). But for PE i don't want to see every vehicle i have get 1-2 shotted by tank reaper atgs.

And no shit, don't rush atgs head-on w/ HTs.....

I dont have a panther, and i am not asking HTs to survive AT shots. I am talking about the zooks that are gonna rape PE in 2 shots when they try to get away. Focus fire will be useless then because ranger squads will just run up to it while the ATHT is shoot at it and zook it in one barrage.
BTW, you do realize that we are limited to 2 PIV until we have to pay PP right? And if we do buy more PIV ISTs, we will most definitely have to sacrifice some Marders/MHT/ACs to get it right? That is not good because we need our marders for AT, our MHT for our light arty, and our ACs to just fuck around lol.

Crimson, it's PE.  They are THE DEFINITION OF GLASS CANNONS.  The way PE is played in this mod right now honestly is retarded...once people adapt, things will be fine.  Its just that with Tank Reapers, the completely stupid IHT rushes of doom aren't going to work anymore.  Use MHT's(outrange AT guns), use mp44/g43 squads, use flanking AC's...all of these things can clear a 57...its not rocket science.  Also, ATHT's are not front line troops...if the rangers can get to it, you're mis-using it.  Its designed to be used at MAX RANGE, behind a screen of infantry.  Works especially well with a g43 to slow the rangers.  Also, if you aren't using a panther, you should have a fuckload of fuel to use on p4ists....

The old TR would be fun against the PE tbh lol.

70 percent penetration and damage lol, actually i like this one better, for the zooks stuff.. makes vet3 rangers and rifles with zooks kinda mean.

You know what fine, just keep it.
My falls are better than your rangers.   8)

<---Armor Doctrine.

Also, ya, I have falls too.  They do alright against rangers in equal numbers and green cover...but mine aren't vet3 cool like yours

Actually i lost a vet 3 due to lag, but i will get it back in no time....i hope.

The bold part is whats important, the MHT has the same or less range than a 57mm depending on teh 57s vet level.

like that matters if the thing is behind a building or berm..

My poor poor Vet 3 Panzer.

I was really surprised by that. My biggest problem with the tank reapers is that it removes a lot of the strategy in attacking a tank. Suddenly, all you need to do is set up an anti-tank gun and rush some rangers in and a vet 3 panzer will be dead before you can even try to back it up.

You may say that its in line with HEAT rounds or the other T4, but I disagree. AT guns can be remanned and bazookas can be picked up. Hell, Heavy Weapons even gives Bazookas to all of your rifle squads if you see fit. Tank Reapers is a great idea, but since rifleman and AT guns are much more survivable than tanks in the current meta-game, I think the penetration or damage should be toned done a bit.



So then counters to 57mm for the PE are completely map dependent.

Indeed. PE should get an Offmap or onmap arty strike for removing hardpoints just like every other doctrine.

I suggest we find a model of a Panzerwerfer 42, and use that.

I think i found it!
http://img142.imageshack.us/i/pw42iy5.jpg/
Check the near the bottom of the relic forum thread here for more info:

http://forums.relicnews.com/showthread.php?t=209582&page=4

...really?  You can't be serious...

Just get the numbers in line with each other  :)

Heat Rounds: (Tanks)
+25% Damage
+15% Penetration

German Steel: (Tanks)
+25% Health
-15% Received penetration

Tank Reapers: (AT guns, Bazookas, Sticky Bombs)
+20% Damage
+33% Penetration
+25% Accuracy

Tank Reapers could be something like:

• +25% Damage + 20% Accuracy  
• +20% Damage + 20% Penetration  
• +15% Damage + 15% Penetration +15% Accuracy  

I am loving the axis "OP!!!" cries in this thread when their  precious tanks get penetrated every time by the at guns and at weapons. I wonder if they have ever played on the allied team, where penetrating shots on armor from anything bigger then a rifle are to be expected.

Except tank reapers only buff AT weapons, while heat rounds buff all tanks.   If tank reapers gave ATGs, rangers, and riflemen more damage, and accuracy your comparison would have a point.

Its not like Heat rounds only give damage bonus vs ATGs and rangers.  It gives dmg bonus vs everything.


Its called G43 slow.

At no point does a 57mm have the same range as a MHT.   MHT has 70 range, 57mm has 60 range, increasing to 65 range at vet 3.

In addition, MHT is by far the most efficient counter to support weapons in the game.  It can reliably one shot decrew an ATG within 5 seconds by using the incendiary shell.   Regular mortar barrages lands near the ATG once or twice and then your opponent pulls the ATG back 2 feet.

Does anyone know if tank reaper works for the British AT gun when purchased in the reinforcement package?

lols, Shermans are just as durable as a P4, actually, they have more HP too....

Then again, you might need to stop sitting in front of PAK guns to notice that.

hmmm 6pdr cloaked TR..

not hey are not listed as having it.

 

Axis at weapons, man packed or tank have higher penetration rrates vs allied tanks and you know it ampm stop instigating :p.

and yea, sux my 6pdrs can't use tank reapers :(

The only argument i can see forming agaisnt the TR here is maybe from the PE players but as stated before in this thread there are countless counters for Allied AT (seeing as thats all this is applied to).

Shermans, M10, M18 all suffer a 1 maybe 2 shots from an AT gun and before they can realy evade or pull back the next shots destroyed engine if not killed it.

The axis now have to worry about rushing there P4 and Panthers through a front line and because of this its OP?

PE can still use alot of there usual methods to counter this just have to take alittle more care in microing your HT's.

WM dont like this more then most (not tryna point fingers but it is those and i guess if i was used to steam roleing any AT defence i came across with a hand full of tanks ide feel the same way)

All i can say is if this doesnt get nerfed due to WM demand then mix up your companys more, i have had to do it countless times to counter axis vehicles/infantry.

I wonder if the allies who think it's perfectly alright have ever played on the axis team, where their armor is expensive and very limited while simultaneously being the core of their army?

I can't help but love all of you experts that are out there: yes, I know that tank reapers was in EiR, I played that as well.

Dear Crazy, thanks for the advise, but in case you forgot, I only run my company with 4 tanks in it. The rest revolves around assault infantry and a few support weapons. I have more than enough infantry. I use combined arms 100% of the time, except when I fill up my pop with the KT, which is basically when all other units have died.

Dear Freek, "L2play newb?" way to sound like a dick muffin. thanks for the insightful advice. oh wait, I am no newb and i did have a mortar on the field, what do you know! please don't post unless you take the time to think something other than "oh noes he might have a point, i dont want them to nerf something of the allies. nerf axis!! now!". thanks!!
 If you had taken the time to actually read the whole of my post, and not assume (yup you know what you made yourself by doing that) you might have noticed that my main point was this: I have German Steel (A t4, since you seem hooked on pointing those out) I had hoped it would be worth the same 100pp that tank reapers costs. It worked OK against regular AT. Against tank reapers, it was as if I had tanks worse than normal.

Also, I have an allied armor account, with nothing worth noting in the way of doctrine abilities. Anyways, Shermans deflect the same against paks from the front as p4s do against regular atgs. Some of you may try to give the sherman a much worse reputation than it should have, maybe in hopes of getting some oil to the squeaky wheel? M10s are glass cannons, much the same as a geschutzwagen, or marder. except m10s can circle strafe.

The main difference between Amer and Wehr AT is the pak will always hit and penetrate the first shot due to the first strike bonus, 57mm doesn't have that.

Between shreks/fausts and RR/zooks/stickies amer AT is a little weaker but not by much.

M10s really can't be compared to marders.  Marders are mobile ATGs and should be used a such, they have really high damage and 60 range.   Geschutzwagen is just a piece of shit, basically a more expensive marder without lockdown.

Mate not being funny but the only one crying about nerfing atm is you =/ and no one gives the sherman a "bad" reputation, unfortunatly it is our best tank so we have to deal with it (this is assumeing your talking about Infantry battalion)

If TR was implemented to balance out the lack of stopping power against axis vehicles then yeh its done its job pritty well, of course you dont like it your axis... just like we dont like being stomped by tanks that dont seem to want to die from our AT before it crushs past our guns (Pre-TR)

The way it seems is this allows a fair number of axis tanks to be vulnerable to the damage received that of allied tanks, the thought of it sucks doesnt it...

@Jink, l2playnewb was just a phrase not a personal attack.  I loose you somewhere around 'dickmuffin' and when you mention something about the logic of your previous post, which if it existed didn't transfer to your latest one. 

Oh, and next time, don't accuse me of being a 'nerf axis, not alliez!' in a thread all about 'nerf allies, not axis!' kk?

@AmPm, even if the sherman has the same hp etc of the pIV, it is not as survivable.  You forget the tendency they have to die to dual shreks, or take half+ damage from that cloaked pack before they can back up.

Now, someone in this thread mentioned something along the lines of 'allied handheld at [zooks/rrs/stickies] is only slightly subpar to axis'
Now, if we were considering all allied doctrines, I would tend to agree with you.  However, this thread is all about the inf doctrine.  W/o TR I'd rather buy my rangers w/o zooks.  Namely because they don't do much damage at range in front (or anywhere, at range, they miss a lot). 

IMHO.  TR merely bumps the infantry doctrines subpar AT to a place of superiority over most axis AT.  Considering the cost associated w/ T4's it should be so, and considering that TR has already been nerfed, this is really getting out of hand. 

Idk how many german doctrine abilities there are which make their already superior tanks into even MOAR superior ones, but I'm not crying.  TR merely makes it so I can't be totally stomped by a tank rush... until it gets behind my ATG's :sadface:

man.. I need to go to bed.  And b4 any more accusations of being a 'dickmuffin' I also play axis, not as much as allied ofc, but I found the game to be much easier that way.

enemy entrenched?->nebel->rush in with appropriate counter for support->entrench

^TR does nothing to hinder the axis counters to ATG's/zooks.  [Namely mortars, nebels, storms, and snipers, although reg inf work too if AT is unsupported.]
 

Shall we compare the costs?

The P4 cost 5 more MP and 15 more Fuel than Shermans. Hardly a ton.
The Stug costs slightly less than the M10(I would believe this would be a more proper comparison, than M10 with a Marder/Gesch).
The M18 is just a sorry piece of crap. Costs less than a Stug, for a good reason.
No equivilent to StuH, except for AVRE. AVRE costs more, it's shots come on a cooldown.
Allies have no such thing as a "panther", so no comparison.
Pershing vs Tiger - 20 less MP 10 less FU on the pershing.
No such thing as KT on allied side.

36 HP makes a hell of a difference, doesn't it?
The pak outDPS'es the 57 mm rather considerably, consistently gets two shots off at enemy armor before they manage to reverse out, and can cloak and thus attain a first shot bonus that makes it penetrate the front armor of even pershings all the time.

The shreck is also much better at killing tanks than the bazooka. The RR is also pretty sweet, but it can indeed be bounced, and it's damage is way lower than that of a panzershreck.

I played my armor company against a tank hunters player and he totally whupped my ass. I didn't get on the boards proclaiming "OP!!!" because of it. The majority of my muni and mp were put into armor so yea, its happened to me before. The thing is, now those heavy tank companies that used to roll over allied lines can't do it against reaper companies now.

I played a game last night where I had tons of stuff left over but I was matchless against a tiger and a king tiger on the field. The allies can't do anything like that. Now, if I had reapers, it might've been different cuz I certainly would've scared the shit outta him when my zooks started taking a good chuck out that ass along with my at guns. I play plenty of games where I face 4 p4's and a panther, or 4 pf's and a tiger, its no fun, especially when the whole time they dedicate themselves taking out every at guns i've got so they can roll over me later in the game. So now we finally have a counter to it.

Lastly, I see no allied thread about heat rounds which are incredibly effective and makes tigers obsolete cuz Panthers can now snipe infantry much more effectively. I lose whole squads of infantry to one shot from a p4, i'm not on here screaming OP but yet somehow everytime the allies get something strong, the axis players get on here and start whining cuz they're so used to just rolling us over. Like I've pointed out before, a lot of axis players have high win rates so i guess when things start getting even they can't take it., just like before EIR went down the allies were pla ying really well and the axis blamed it on bars...yea BARS but then later the axis started making a major push as they all got their T4's yet the allied players sucked it up and kept on playing and even while they were winning a lot of axis players were still whining about "allied OPness" so give me a break.

Stopped reading there. You say tank hunters are good against tanks?  :o :o ???

smart ass i was replying to this


There are currently no allied doctrines that are dedicated anti vehicle killers. If anything, thats the major weakness, so now, one out of the 6 allied docs can reliably kill tanks and you whine about it yet you have the most powerful anti tank weapons? Give me a break. Stop all that happy bullshit already.

Are you serious?

All Airborne is good for is taking out vehicles. I'm not saying that its overpowered, but to say that there aren't any Allied Doctrines that are dedicated vehicle killers is a fallacy.

As an Axis player, my only problem with the Tank Reapers doctrine is that it has a greater quantity and magnitude of bonuses than the majority of other T4's. You may say that HEAT rounds and German Steel affects EVERY tank, compared to Tank Reapers only affecting ATGs, stickies, and bazookas. However, consider that the maximum amount of tanks that an Axis player can realistically field is around 4 or 5 tanks (3-4 panzers and maybe a panther). I personally don't know the cost for giving bazookas to riflemen, but I do know that it isn't uncommon to see 6-8 squads of bazooka riflemen, with 3-4 AT guns, and maybe 4 rangers. Again, I don't know the specifics in a proper Tank Reaper company. Add to that the ability to pick of bazookas and ATGs and it becomes clear that the amount of units that are benefiting from Tank Reapers is substantial.

So I say tweak the numbers on Tank Reapers, so it is more in line with the other T4's and takes away the arcadey feeling that I get. I'm sorry and maybe it is just me, but I just find it ridiculous that an ATG shell and a barrage from 2 ranger squads, all to the front of a Vet 3 Panzer 3 should kill it from full health. Tank Reapers should make AT weapons formidable, but please don't make it so it almost completely changes game mechanics.

AT guns are not meant to be rushed with tanks.
Just use mortar and nebel to take them out.
I have deleted my stupid comment.  :)

Care to explain? You have obviously not played the last week.

I have played the last week.
Why nerf 1 good allied doctrine skill when axis got so many of those.
It is so tragic.

Volkgrenadiers are not meant to be rushed with tanks.
Just use BARed riflemen and commandos to take them out.

If you've played at all or even read a change log in the last week you wouldn't have made that comment, I suggest you go read the change log and modify your post before you lose all credibility in this and other threads.

Then just use mortar to take AT out.
I have read the changelog.

Just because something can be taken out by its hard counter doesn't mean its not overpowered.

This is probably when of the most common mistakes people make when discussing balance.

But I do not want to spend 100 pp on some cover skill or faster shooting riflemen.
I want Tank Reapers but I do not want it if they nerf it to 10% on everything.  :'(

Ah... Nice troll. I guess I did fall for it.  ;)

They wont nerf it,

They maybe gona buff the Allied HQ T4, it sux rabbit balls.

I love my Tank Reapers, Man those Panzer IV goes down fast,
Tigers die fast also

But the KT, wow, I run away, that bastard wont die, its so slow that it runs over my rangers lol

It is indeed just you.

Skirts in EiR grant 0.75 recieved damage and 0.75 recieved penetration from all weapons.

150 base damage on a 57 mm. 112.5 vs a skirted P4.
90 base damage on a bazooka vs a skirted P4.

If all shots hit and penetrated(way unlikely) a skirted vet-less P4 without tank reapers.
112.5 + 360 = 472.5 damage.

With tank reapers :
472.5 * 1.2 = 567 damage.

So, if ALL of the shots would hit and all of them would penetrate (point blank rear armor showing of the P4), then the vet-less skirted P4 would be put just outside 5 hp. It would not even have the chance of dieing.


On the more possible occasion that the P4 is showing it's front and is at medium range of all 4 bazookas and AT gun(tank reapers included) :
90*1.25*0.94 percent chance that the ATG will, hit. Definite hit at 105.75 percent.
60*1.25 percent chance that each of the bazookas will hit. 75 percent chance to hit with each bazooka, realisticaly - 3 bazookas will hit the P4.

Penetration :
The 57 mm shell will have a 0.755*0.75*0.9*1.33 = 0.67 percent to penetrate. 67 percent chance to do 135 damage, 33 percent do do 67.5 damage.

The 3 hitting bazooka shells will have a 0.337*1.33 = 0.448 chance to penetrate. On average, 1 bazooka will penetrate, 1 will not, the third one is a gamble.
So, it will be 108 damage + 16.2 damage (bounced shot dmg) + 45/55 percent chance to deal, respectively, 108 and 16.2 damage.

Best case scenario of both 57 shell and all 3 bazooka shells penetrating :
135+3*108 = 459 damage.

Good case scenario of 57 shell and 2 bazookas penetrating :
135 + 2*108 + 16.2 = 367.2 damage.

Worse case scenario of 57 shell and 1 bazooka penetrating :
135 + 108 + 2*16.2 = 275.4 damage

Worst case scenario of nothing penetrating :
67.5 + 3*16.2 = 116.1 damage

If you have neither skirts nor TR and all shots hit and penetrate :
150 damage + 4 *120 = 150 + 480 = 630 damage.


So what is OP, the T4 ability that, with luck, allows you to have the chance of nearly killing a skirted P4, or the non-doctrinal ability to buy skirts at 80(?) mu that allows you to survive through 350 + 660 = 990 MP, 110+160 = 270 MU and 16 popcap worth of pure AT even with a T4 if luck favors the T4 user completely?
Honestly, if you guys want Tank Reapers removed, please accept the removal of sideskirts from the game as well.

:clap: myst wit da math.

and while we're at it, lets list a few "OP" axis Tier 4's that are implemented.

Fatherland Defense (All units gain 20% HP)

so...axis units already have higher hit points than their allied counter parts and then we give them more? Wonderful. Add that to FTFL and you have units that can assault an hmg and barely get tickled.

HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)

okay, so they get 25% more damage and penetration which btw is just silly, basically it means every shot from an axis tank will penetrate allied armor and a panther can defeat a pershing 1v1.

Heavy Support (HMGs, mortars, snipers, ATGs have 25% more range, health & sight)

ooh...so they've already got more range and fire power add this to

Advanced munitions (Hmgs & Mortars deal 20% more damage and suppression)

and you've got seriously over powered support weapons.

I can go on and on. Point blank, all sides have powerful Tier 4's, just cuz one can well not even nullify axis armor but make you guys go and say "oh no...I have to actually be careful with my tanks now" instead of doing like a lot of you do and just rush on in with day 2-3 p4's and just wreck havoc doesnt mean things should change, means you should change tactics.

I said "dedicated" just because something is "good" at taking out something doesn't mean that they're dedicated tank killers.

and tank reapers is way in line with other t4's read them. Heck, Tank reapers is not even close to the most powerful t4.

Here are some axis ones that are more powerful (wont list allied cuz this is an obvious allies vs axis go ahead and choose some allied onces if you like i dont care)

Heavy Support (HMGs, mortars, snipers, ATGs have 25% more range, health & sight)
HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)
Conviction (Blitzkrieg lasts twice as long, no negative modifiers, grants 2 extra uses)
Camouflage Equipment (All non-heroic units in friendly territory remain camouflaged until they move or open fire, 1 use, max 2)
Fortress Europe (Flak88 & Flakvierling receive 20% more damage, 25% faster turn rate and 15% sight increase, flak36 can relocate)
Crete Veterans (FJs and Luftwaffe infantry gain 25% less received suppression, 20% more accuracy and 15% more damage)
Spirit of the Edelweiss (Grants Lieutenant like bonuses and Heroic Charge to FJ) - seriously?
Opening Barrage (When not defending, at start of game fires extensive barrage into the center of the map with fire effects lasting
Panzer Zeal (For every vehicle above 5 pop on the field your vehicles receive 15% less received damage and 15% increased accuracy, max 60%) (laughably overpowered)

Tym heavy support got nerfed to shit since then, the list is kinda outdated. :P

What makes you think opening barrage is good? only like every 1/3 game you get to attack.

Personally tier4's are best if they help your men in some way so they can get vet easier, killing enemies doesn't matter because once you have tier 4 you have level 8 and winning doesn't mean anything.

Well call it screening barrage and it gives you a call in ability.
You can put this anywhere around the map and a barrage will open up.

Ill thought idea but i think that we really should improved it.

it will be epic when we start the atk/def dude. I'm not talking about now, I'm thinking future. When scorched earth is attacking and they have that t4, they can wipe out a call in if thats any good

nerf TR anything below 20 per on any of the buffs would make it useless imho..

You play vs a PE player that you heard may be SE in the late war and are defending - you don't go to the middle till the timer runs out, heh.

Change the game mechanics? that is very very far fetched for something that is in all honesty (though the axis wont admit) evening the playing field, the good players that know how to use there axis units will know how to counter any of our AT because not many of them rush there soddin tanks into AT guns and ranger squads etc... why do people cry when something finaly brings the playing field on a reasonable level (yes you can try nick picking saying Airborne is GREAT against tanks you obviously havnt played them quite that well.

Airbornes best AT and i wont deniy it there pritty good is the RR the only other "unique" is there bombing run and the fact there 57s can be airdropped, theres bollox all realy different there so were this epic rawr rawr crap come from is behond me.

So i will agree this is the ONE doctrine ability that gives us a good and effective AT role if it gets nerfed from its current state then there is no point in the ability at all... it only affects ATguns, zooks, stickies ALL of these can be easy counterd by something called RANGE AT guns i see 24/7 like the pak can be counterd easy enough by re-routeing your attacking force duhhhhhhhhhh not infront of the soddin AT gun stickies have a very short throwing distance, you see it all the time enemy vehicle set in reverse and starts sipping there tea as the infantry failingly trys to keep up to throw there sticky fail.

And of course our all epic Zooks he shoots he scores! or not it missed by miles ... oh wait no course it didnt miss it didnt make the range =D

There is really no room to argue here the buff the ability gives is usefull ONLY if used correctly.

tank reapers will be getting audited very soon, working on something else atm though.

wow, I relay kicked my self on the nuts there

By the way, the inf doctrine is more about Riflemen, nothing about the rangers, exept get 4+ more rangers, eaven tho its not in yet. So the T4 is what bosts the rangers, there should be more too them.

And Tank Reapers, if it get changed, 100p thnx  :-*

omg, what do you plan on doing, i just spent 100pp last night on it.  If your gonna nerf too much might as well just go to carbines.

I be can sence Axis crying prevailed.

audit? why...there's nothing wrong with it. I just played a game, zooks still miss. The only reason it might seem "op" is because axis players bullrush their amor, and think you can't do a nything to them and then when you're c lose and you penetrate from the front, by that time its almost over. I still got my rifles and rangers raped by hmgs, mortars and fj's (which their docs need a debuff, they're way too good) matter of fact, of the 14 rifles i had, i only got out with 3 and 2 of them were my starting call in rifles.

TR as is now isn't a end all beat all. It'd probably still have issues vs tigers and king tigers. I'd be interested in what you want to "audit" though

I can't believe this BS.  A T4 that makes my AT actually *kill* what it's supposed to kill is being NERFED AGAIN?

FFS, you're gonna nerf the only good inf t4.  God, why do I even play as allies.

They're doing quite the same with AB xD

Oh, but it does change game mechanics. It felt more like C&C Generals when my vet 3 panzer (which wasn't "bumrushing" an AT as everyone likes to say) was insta-nuked from front armor. Granted I could have used my panzer more efficiently, by not putting it in a position to get snagged on a hedgerow. Regardless, the reason I say that it changes game mechanics is because it nearly nullifies armor and received penetration reductions, while still adding a substantial amount of damage and accuracy. Even with the ambush ability, two panzershreck stormtroopers can't hope to do as well against the front armor of a vet 3 sherman as those ranger squads did against the front armor of a vet 3 panzer.


I fail to see how I'm nitpicking, when the majority of Airborne abilities give a bonus to Airborne infantry and the effectiveness of their recoiless rifles. It's a shame that I have no sodding idea what the rest of your paragraph said, because it looks like it would be epic.


And we come back to the lovely recurring trend. I said this before in the thread, but I guess you didn't catch it. Here it is again:

A game mechanic can still be overpowered regardless of its vulnerability to a natural counter.

Let me give you an exaggerated example of this phenomenon. Let's say that in an alternative version of EIRR, double shrecked grenadiers would instantly kill all armor, except for the pershing. THAT is overpowered, but it is still possible for the Axis players to say, "What do you mean its overpowered? What are you doing rushing your sherman into anti-tank infantry? Use mortars and anti-infantry infantry."

All of the Allies think that


While there are some abilities in that list that should be tweaked (Panzer Zeal), I fail to see how Tank Reapers is inferior to all of them.

Tank Reapers: 20% more dmg, 33% penetration, 25% more accuracy for Bazookas, ATGs, and Stickies.

HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration) - I love to see the comparison between HEAT rounds and Tank Reapers. First off, the actual bonuses for Tank Reapers is substantially more than HEAT rounds. You have much more penetration, a little less damage, and the added bonus of accuracy to weapons that can be recrewed, reused, and healed at a triage center, indefinitely. HEAT rounds is a very effective T4, but I fail to see how it is superior to Tank Reapers.

Crete Veterans (FJs and Luftwaffe infantry gain 25% less received suppression, 20% more accuracy and 15% more damage) - Some of the most fragile infantry in the game get an suppression, accuracy, and damage bonus. Very effective T4, but once again, it isn't better than Tank Reapers.
 
Fortress Europe (Flak88 & Flakvierling receive 20% more damage, 25% faster turn rate and 15% sight increase, flak36 can relocate) - For something that costs a ton, is easily decrewed, and can only be used 2-3 times in a game, this T4 is not overpowered. I haven't seen it in action, so I can't say how effective it is. But it looks ridiculously situational.

So in general, I find it difficult to argue that Tank Reapers is inferior to most Axis T4 doctrines.


In that case, I really wish I saved the replay. Because it was indeed two ATG shots or another barrage from the two ranger squads, then I would have a little less of a problem with it.

It's just not possible that a vet 3 skirted P4 died to 2 penetrating ATG shots and 4 penetrating bazooka shots with TR.

(90*4+2*150)*1.2*0.75*0.85*0.9 = 454.41 Damage

The skirts alone would have likely(not always) saved the P4, and the vet damage reductions make it happen for sure.


I honestly should of stopped reading right after I read this part, but meh.

*sigh*

Table of weapon effectiveness vs their targets with all the included buffs and debuffs.

////////////////      TR Bazooka      WM Panzershreck
Damage                  82.62                    91.8
Acc. at M range        75%                     75%
Penetration              35.6%                  87.8%

You were saying something about the bazooka being horribly OP with tank reapers?

US AB? RRs too strong for the axis too now?

hope they dont hurt it too much.. lol.

To Atlanton:
Just wondering about that ATG hitting your vet 3 P4, was the ATG at vet 3? Because if it was it will do more damage per shot than  a KT, in fact, it will do more damage than a Vet 3 Panther w/ heat rounds.
So if it was vet 3 then your P4 was bound to die w/ a few hits.

Not RRs, but Paras were supposed to be given BARs for more AI firepower but that idea was scratched and most likely it will be replaced with some bullshit abillity (I still hope for some at least same awesome thing like this but God doesn't like me). Although this is a bit off-topic, so let's rather stay on it :P

150 * 1.2(TR) * 1.25(vet 3) = 225
137.5 * 1.2(vet 3) * 1.25(HR) = 206.25

Yeah, it'll do slightly more damage than a Panther because it gets the same boosts and the base damage is higher, but not by much.

If we count in skirts for the P4 :
225*0.75 = 168.75

If we also count in vet 3 for the P4.
168.75*0.9*0.85 = 129.1

it would still take 5 hits from a vet 3 ATG with TR to kill a vet 3 P4.

As for BARs on airborne, I would have rather had this :
M1A3 Carbines.
The M1 Carbine becomes an automatic weapon with these stats :

A 1-1.25 second burst of 6 rounds per second at 6 damage per round.
1.5 second cooldown.
3 bursts until reload.
2.5-3 second reload.
Standard M1 carbine accuracy(or maybe -10 percent).

It would be quite less powerful than the BAR, but it would give airborne a fair chance to at least beat volks squads.

God doesn't like me neither

You do realize that with more penetration w/ vet + tank reaper, skirts are not gonna matter. It cancels it out i am afraid so it will still do full damage.

You do realise that skirts in EiR give :
0.75 recieved damage
0.75 recieved penetration

Vs ALL units?

If the shell also had the indecency to bounce, it would be 64.55 damage from the vet 3, bouncing ATG. Less than standard vs standard, actualy.

Penetration chance of a TR vet 3 ATG vs vet 3 skirted P4.

0.755(base) * 0.75 (skirts) * 1.33 (TR) * 1.15 (vet 1 ATG) * 1.15 (vet 2 ATG) * 0.8 (vet 3 P4) = 79.68%  base chance to penetrate.

It varies on range, though :
Close : x1.25 = 99.6% (stil possible(not likely) deflection)
Medium : x0.9 = 71.712%
Long x0.85 = 67.728%

No. It’s only vs. Handheld AT weapons. It gives you 0.9 received dam against AT-guns and tanks.

Unless it's specifically been changed for EiR, the 57mm does 100% damage, even against skirts.

Well, as I said later in my post, I don't have the replay, so I don't know exactly what happened. All I am doing is quoting from the OP, since the Panzer IV in the OP is the one I am referring to.

So... if the situation was as DuckofDoom described in the OP, then on some level, I think the numbers need some looking into.

Examples out of this EIRR is pointless but for arguments sake i will go along with it.

lol please axis hand held anti tank half cripples practicaly all of our tanks and it doesnt take too long to take the pershing down this entire rant has begun because axis dont like that the allies will stand a chance with out blowin swet out there arses from micromanagement, im not arguing with you i see your point on things being situational based.

The point is if we went around everything crying that its OP cus it doesnt suit every single situation that is CURRENTLY used in, then shreks would do the same damage as zooks, have the same accuracy and such.
Shermans would be more durable and be a replica of the P4.
ETC... yadda yadda, its bull shit.

The only thing in question here is the ability to find counters to new things implemented the friggin allies have had to find it from day one with the bull shit of axis armour steam roleing the defences and cream crackerin poor old 57mm while he was sipping his tea shooting away, its not cricket.

When axis has new things implemented unless they are dog shit over powerd (which im yet to see something like the KT take a super dooper nerf) then we will most likey bite our tongue and wait out a few games till we finaly come up with a counter, you cant vehicle spam us now diddums mix and match.

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