COH: Europe In Ruins

Edited to include math for morons 

At the moment there is a problem with side skirts. Their bonuses stack with other bonuses from vet and doctrinal abilities (mainly German Steel and Fatherland Defense). This makes a fully jacked up P4/Stug/StuH more resilient than a Tiger! Therefore I suggest a rather large change in the way that side skirts work:

Remove all damage/penetration modifiers from the side skirts since these are stackable bonuses. Instead give ALL the units with side skirts P4 front armor value as rear armor vs. handheld AT + immunity to buttoning and crits from stickys (not damage).  


This is what the suggestion would do in terms of numbers:

Sticky bombs:
This cost the axis player about the same as the sticky bombs. Allied player buys 4 sticky bombs. Axis player buys skirts on 4 tanks that become immune to the critical effect. The sticky bombs still does FULL damage (100-150)

Bazookas (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33%
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen – 66%

Piats: (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33%
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen – 66%

Recoilless Rifles: (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33% ( full pen)
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen +0% (full pen)

AT Guns (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Dam + 11%

Tanks (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Dam + 11%

The proposed side skirts ONLY GIVES PROTECTION VS REAR ARMOR HITS. Frontal hit on the suggested skirts will be exactly the same as an attack vs. a non skirted tank.  In terms of protection this will be a HUGE NERF to axis. Since the skirts no longer improve frontal armor it mainly hits the ones that excel in long distance combat - Blitz! On the other hand it now gives axis the same possibility as allies to use blitz tactics and skirmish fighting with tanks (still a risky and non advisable tactics if you want to keep your vet). This will be limited to the medium tanks and the allies will have a visual indicator (the skirts) on what units that have the break trough capabilities. Defense and Terror will be more durable in this role and whereas blitz will have “less armored” tanks that are better at getting in and out quick. 

Saint teh ninja  ;)    ;D

Except that its a right pain in the ass, its doable.

Then again, it would still get sticky raped.

Like and locking old topic due to this makes more sense and is an improvement


Edit:

Whate we can't lock? Damit!

Buttoning is essential to Brit gameplay, this is practically a buff.  There's definitely a problem with Blitz when all upgrades and vet are stacked on top of each other.  I think the sum total of side skirts, vet 3, improved barrels and heat rounds/german steel need looking at, maybe blitz needs less tank buffing abilties, replace some of them with new ones.  Maybe skirts just need a price increase.  Or maybe range buff needs removing from veterancy.  Doesn't need to be drastic, just toned down a bit.  I think one or two minor debuffs are in order here to bring them in line and see where it goes from there.

If it's not broken do not change it.

At the same time, they should nerf allied armor vet, its silly that with armor doctrine and vet a Sherman can penetrate a Panther reliably and have more HP as well, right? Hell, they can tear up Hetzers (a supposed AT unit with fantastic front armor) from the FRONT.

Oh its not?

Leave the tank doctrines to boosting tanks.

What are you doing here, arguing with yourself?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man

Anyway, as I've said in other posts, I wouldn't mind seeing some of the obviously superior allies and axis docs toned down a bit, together.  Gameplay over super units plz.

Why do Blitz players keep suggesting super buffs for their units?  You don't see players of other doctrines coming up with completely absurd I-Win buttons and then proposing them in complete seriousness...

If anything, you're giving axis a mega-buff if you change skirts to work like that.


P4s would only be reliable killable with 57 mm AT guns - and they would get circlestrafed due to no buttoning or stickies to stop the P4.

Frankly - bad idea.

I gotta say that this made my day.  :D

does pauli play allied too?

He plays them more often than you play Axis, if that answers your question ;)

i have a axis account, just nobody knows its name  ;)

Your grandads will kill you.

ya, but iam sure their grand daddys who were born east of berlin wouldnt  ;)

never seen pauli play axis i bet he is sooooo good

We need to quote more quotes, Quote more quotes!

No we don't! And you never mentioned those grand daddys! Tell me more!

Even tough it is of topic yes i do need to know wtf are these granddaddies=?

Both my Grand Dads where in ww2, western front...

one of their famailies migrated from prussia in early 1900s to us...

wow, lots of quoting quotes of quotes.

btw Pauli, horrid idea, another axis player trying to make their already amazing company better lol. I find it funny that some of the mots absurd ideas or allied whiners come from people who are actually pretty damn good.

QUOTE QUOTE QUOTE!
My granddaddy was in the Wehrmacht, first in the Eastern front then transferred to the Western front. He is like 89 right now and he doesnt enjoy talking about the war too much.

That made me think about many things. hmmm

Agreed!

+1 to Kolath's heart attack.

That's what they said about slavery, dick.
How about some constructive criticism with your racism?

I thought it sounded like a good idea, besides the inability to becoming buttoned.
The ability to slow a charging tank is pretty much the only thing the Brits have (which I do not play, ever.) 17 lbers don't even need to be circle-strafed. All P4's need to do is lock down behind one, and, unless the Brit is RE, then I don't think they will be able to turn fast enough before they get bloweded up.

Also, 17 lbers aren't used all that often at all, so this is pretty straw mannish.

damn.. lol.

I don't understand this

umm... k.. dont worry about it, you may hurt yourself.

Dang, you guys are quick. I threw in my own constructive criticism. ;D

Why did I know this would happen? I know it’s human nature to expect another to be selfish but could you morons please read the suggestion and do the math before you accuse me of anything. This is what the suggestion would do in terms of numbers:

Sticky bombs:
This cost the axis player about the same as the sticky bombs. Allied player buys 4 sticky bombs. Axis player buys skirts on 4 tanks that become immune to the critical effect. The sticky bombs still does FULL damage (100-150)

Bazookas (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33%
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen – 66%

Piats: (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33%
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen – 66%

Recoilless Rifles: (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Frontal Dam + 33%
Frontal Pen + 33% ( full pen)
Rear Dam +33%
Rear Pen +0% (full pen)

AT Guns (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Dam + 11%

Tanks (suggested skirts in comparison to current skirts)
Dam + 11%

The proposed side skirts gives ONLY GIVES PROTECTION VS REAR ARMOR HITS. Frontal hit on the suggested skirts will be exactly the same as an attack vs. a non skirted tank.  In terms of protection this will be a HUGE NERF to axis. Since the skirts no longer improve frontal armor it mainly hits the ones that excel in long distance combat - Blitz! On the other hand it now gives axis the same possibility as allies to use blitz tactics and skirmish fighting with tanks (still a risky and non advisable tactics if you want to keep your vet). Defense and Terror will be more durable in this role and where as blitz will have “less armored” tanks that are better at getting in and out quick.   

 Guderian came with a suggestion that would allow real blitz tactics to be applied to axis tank play in CoH. I have had a similar idea for a long time and have tried to improve on his suggestion. If you guys don’t like it fine. Please post why you don’t like it or try and correct some of the numbers or add ideas to improve the suggestion. Don’t post moronic comments about me. I’m trying to help with ideas that I think will help or add to the gameplay in this mod. 


Note: Could a MOD please clean up this tread.

The thing about stickies and button is they keep axis tanks from just driving straight into allied troops and overunning them, it makes the axis players wary and gives the allies a chance to fight them at range with at guns.  Nobody cares about sticky damage, it's the engine critical that counts.  It's not just removing buttoning and stickies crits but removing the percieved threat of them that will have more of an effect than you realize.  "blitz tactics" essentially comes down to just driving tanks into the other guys army and trying to run over as many guys as possible whilst circle strafing their at.  Any noob can do that, tanks don't need upgrades which encourage it's use.

..... lol p4s will get owned by zooks and rrs from the front with this change Mukip..

No one uses stickies to damage tank, you use stickies to crit tanks. And if you eliminate button, then you just give blitz a total run over of all brit players.

SaintPauli, you said immunity to button and sticky critics and p4 frontal armor as rear armor vs handheld at, common. There is a limit to every bias.

(http://wwii.ca/photos/france/elb_2.jpg)
It IS kinda dirty.

Similar to how now that Fausts dont crit worth a damn allied players are just running tanks in again.

Fausts damage tanks, cheaply you idiot.  Then there are shreks, and the occasional dual shrekker squad of do0m.  Not to mention paks, and any axis tank will beat a regular sherman...

So w/e, AmPm.

*thought GDWhite was really clever there*

Again, a BASIC Sherman is about the same as a P4, luck and who shoots first determines the win. Upgun Sherman will CONVINCINGLY beat a P4. M10 will cripple a P4 for much less cost, M18 can as well when used properly.

The issue is not tank vs tank balance, its that infantry on one side can be run over without concern (including schreks if you know how to make them dance), while on the other side you must stay away from enemy infantry at all times.

Since AT/AI abilities are basically equal across the field the only thing that stands out is one sides ability to run stuff over with AT vehicles (m10) or other armored units with no fear of being crippled.

Which is why paks have cloak anywhere, and the axis the always penetrating panzerhshrek?



It's rear Pen -83.1 percent. Yes, 6 times less penetration to the back with your suggestion. 6.5 times vs panther, 5 times vs stug.




It's rear pen -83.1 percent as well. Yes, 6 times less penetration to the back with your suggestion as well. 6.5 times vs panther, 5 times vs stug as well.


Oh really?

Immunity to engine damage from stickies - check. Means ability to squish squish riflemen with P4s/Panthers without any kind of worry.

Immunity to bazookas - check. Means ability to drive a panther(or 3 stugs) with it's rear armor facing at a ranger, squishing them easily, taking no damage due to easy breezy bouncing of zooks.

Immunity to PIATs and bren button - check. I don't think I have to explain what results removing 2/3rds of the brittish AT capabilities could yield, and that it really doesn't mean a nerf at all - oh no, it would be the biggest buff ever made to the wehrmacht.

Removal of rangers as an AT unit, nerfing the rifleman bazooka beyond any kind of reason - check. I don't think there would be a point to buy bazookas when the P4 your fighting would turn it's rear armor to fight you when low on health - less chance of make wreck/OOC critical that way.


Please try and crush a properly used shrek squad with an M10 with no fear of being crippled. Then try and do the same to a ranger squad with a panther. KKTHXBIE!

Are you a complete moron?

Yeah total run over Timmy! When this stacks with your tank reapers you Bazookas will have the following modifiers in comparison to normal Bazookas vs. current skirts. I can see how you get the short end of this deal… 
Frontal Dam + 60%
Frontal Pen + 77%
Rear Dam +60%
Rear Pen – 12%

Like allied tankers are doing now?


No. Your numbers are wrong. All allied handheld has full penetration vs. all skirted tanks from the rear = 100% pen. I proposed a value of 44% pen vs. skirts (P4 frontal armor). Hence the reduced penetration of 66%.

Axis use Paks and shrecks.  Allies use 57mm and stickies/button.  From what I've seen, allied tank rushes almost always do less damage than they cost themselves.

Because Panzer IVs are the only tanks with skirts right?  ::)

With this change, piats will have 15% chance to penetrate a panther.

Forget P4s, forget ostwinds, forget stuhs.  Panthers are now the most powerful anti-infantry in the game.   They can ignore stickies and button, bounce zooks and stickies 85+% of the time from all directions, and just charge in with their fast speed and start squishing.

Its so laughably overpowered there isn't really a point discussing this.

No but all handheld AT have 100% pen vs.  skirted tanks!

I suggested the P4 front armor since it would clearly not work with giving a Panther the same armor on front and rear. If you want you can argue the suggested 44% pen on Piats/Bazookas and 100% on RRs then pleas do so. Just don’t give me the other bullshit.
  
What are you talking about? The Piat will have the following stats against a Panther:

Suggested Changes:
Dam 144
Chance of frontal pen 15%
Chance of rear pen 44%  (equal to P4 front)

Current Stats:
DAM 108
Chance of frontal pen 11%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Be nice to each other folks, let's keep it civil. :-\

You weren't very clear in the OP.

No, piats don't get a penetration decrease against skirts.

Suggested Changes:
Dam 144
Chance of frontal pen 15%
Chance of rear pen 44%  (equal to P4 front)

Current Stats:
DAM 108
Chance of frontal pen 15%
Chance of rear pen 100%

How is this not a nerf?   The chance to penetrate from the from the negligible, you're more than halving your chance from the rear for 33% more damage?

This by itself is a huge nerf to piats.  Let alone the silly proposals regarding button and stickies.

Lets have a new upgrade for shermans, lets call it sandbags.   It gives shreks 33% MORE damage but now they only penetrate 44% of the time from all sides.

Now do you see how broken your proposal is?

You want to ignore stickies and button?  Fine, but then skirts will ONLY do that, no silly penetration debuffs for handheld AT.

incase you didn't know PIATs work on rear armour hits being a different kind of AT to the standard rocket launchers.  anything less than 50% for rear armour is kinda stupid, if it is meant to be the weakest point of armour.   with this only my ATG and Firfely can hit the panther effectively.  

However this change is trying to make things good, and i like it.  PIATs are obviosuly the one of the few problems arising from it.  I don't even though why they put skirts in the first place, i thought they should be a Vet2 bonus like i think they had in VCoH (or was that the MG gunner?)

Edit: Gamesguy's information below is more correct. Well, my information was incorrect...

Acker you forgot to take into account the 15% damage dealt on deflection.

Proposed, piats vs panther
21.6+18.36=39.96
63.36+12.0=75.46

Current
16.2+13.77=29.97
108*1=108

As you can see, you're gaining a mighty 10 more damage per hit from the front to lose 33 damage per hit from the rear.  Not to mention you will be critting less than half the time from the rear, so more chances for the panther to get away due to the fact that you need a penetrating hit to destroy it.

How this isnt a buff I don't know.

Ah, thanks. I thought I was doing something wrong...

You are looking at a single tank. You have to look at the whole picture. The current skirts are a huge buff to front armor. I’m proposing something that doesn’t improve front armor. Do I really have to do the calculations on all tanks:


Tanks and Artillery
+ 11% more damage in comparison to current skirts


Bazookas and Piats against P4:

No Skirts
Dam 120/144
Chance of frontal pen 44%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Suggested Skirts
Dam 120/144
Chance of frontal pen 44%
Chance of rear pen 44% 

Current skirts:
Dam 90/108
Chance of frontal pen 33%  (Piat 44%)
Chance of rear pen 100%


Bazookas and Piats against StuG and StuH:

No Skirts
Dam 75/90
Chance of frontal pen 33%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Suggested Skirts
Dam 75/90
Chance of frontal pen 33%
Chance of rear pen 44% 

Current skirts:
Dam 56/67.5
Chance of frontal pen 24%  (Piat 33%)
Chance of rear pen 100%


Bazookas and Piats against Panther:

No Skirts
Dam 112.5/133
Chance of frontal pen 15%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Suggested Skirts
Dam 112.5/133
Chance of frontal pen 15%
Chance of rear pen 44% 

Current skirts:
Dam 84/100
Chance of frontal pen 11% (Piat 15%)
Chance of rear pen 100%


Recoilless Rifles against P4, StuG and StuH:

No Skirts
Dam 62.5
Chance of frontal pen 100%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Suggested Skirts
Dam 62.5
Chance of frontal pen 100%
Chance of rear pen 100% 

Current skirts:
Dam 47
Chance of frontal pen 75% 
Chance of rear pen 75%


Recoilless Rifles against Panthers:

No Skirts
Dam 62.5
Chance of frontal pen 75%
Chance of rear pen 100%

Suggested Skirts
Dam 62.5
Chance of frontal pen 75%
Chance of rear pen 100% 

Current skirts:
Dam 47
Chance of frontal pen 56% 
Chance of rear pen 56%
(Current skirts on a panther are a HUGE bonus vs. Recoilless)

Modified to correct error on Piat penetration and AT-guns

1. ATGs don't get a damage reduction vs skirts, only tank guns and artillery.

2. Piats don't get a penetration reduction vs skirts, only a damage reduction.

3. Bazookas and piats don't get a damage bonus vs stugs/stuh.

4. This isn't going to happen so I dunno why I'm bothering.

1. I went with the assumption that current skirts reduce dam/pen by 25% vs. handheld as stated by the devs. The missing pen modifier on Piats isn’t mentioned anywhere.

2. I’m sorry if the 10% less dam on tanks/artillery doesn’t include AT guns. My bad.

3. I didn’t include a bonus dam against Stugs/Stuhs?

4. I seriously also don’t know why I bother….

1.  Its in the game target tables as well as coh stats.

3. Then whats this 75/90 stuff?

Bazooka dam 75
Piat Dam 90

Only error made was the Piat pen vs. current skirts and I honestly didn’t know it was different (applied the same 0,75 dam/pen modifier).

You have clearly no allies to stomp Pauli, lol.

Allied inf AT is fine as it is, why make it poopoo

EDIT: Actually....these numbers are...different. I'm not going to say they are worse or better, but different. Hmmm.  ::)
Still it would be weird shooting a Stug in the ass and having it deflect.

Thanks :D