COH: Europe In Ruins

So im trying to resist the urge to write up a nasty post on why Fortress Europe is so god damn overpowered, and if someone has a copy of the new Luftwaffe Doctrine rework sheet so i can see the new rendition of FE, that would save the fourms another "QQ balance this shit" thread, and alot of my time.

I would be absolved to keep my mouth shut if I knew that it was going to be changed.

It's not so much about FE being OP, it's about flakvierlings being OP from the get go.

They have little to no scatter, 50 percent accuracy at maximum range and they kill a guy in 3 shots.

Meaning that even if they HAD scatter, they'd kill two guys a burst(2 second burst, 6 rounds per second) at maximum range.

Add the immense suppression... And yeah.

Though I don't disagree that 61 range vet 3 FE vierlings are stupid.

They weren't OP to begin with, they are easily removed with an ATG. Its the extended range, like the extended range on anything that allows it to outrange its counters...

There is exactly 1 player in this mod actively using this T4.
Either way all range buffs that "change" units will be removed with the rework.

Don't you think that attempting that will usually lead to disaster, as vierlings are generally built around 88s, which have a habit of killing ATGs quite quickly indeed, or at least in a symbiotic bond with an MHT.

which is why I want this nipped in the ass before ppl catch on.

And how did you come to that conclusion?

Ok, so now they have a Flak36 and Flak38 and an MHT to keep you from mortaring both....darn, I mean 1 unit should obviously counter that combination...wait, artillery does...

wtf is fortress europe?  :-[

maybe you shouldnt have posted it here, i bet 99% people didnt know about this until now.

Imma get Fortress Europe right away, thanks for telling me how OP it is. Cya on the battlefield!

Exactly which unit other than the VET 3 flakvierling is op with fortress europe? lol

The insane range bonus is from its veterancy, +15 flat out range at vet 3 is sparta, madness.

Too bad it doesn't. Have you ever TRIED howitzering, or even worse - callioping a vierling?

Even the almighty creeping barrage is lackluster at killing vierlings, and that's being optimistic.

And yeah - more than one unit being used at a time by most people. That's just 18 popcap, with all three units - I'm fairly certain most people can spare that at the point they've got the battlefield control to set up an 88 and vierling.

The counter to the flakvierling, the flak 88, or both of them together.. is mortar smoke. Simple mortar smoke, either from offmaps or a mortar. If the area is completely open, you have to do like this:

Get 2 mortars
1: Mortar smoke position X within new mortar smoke range of 88/flakvierling
2: Move mortar 2 into position, pop mortar smoke on 88/flakvierling
3: Rush 88/flakvierling with RRs/piats/flamers/stickies/grenades

I seldom have problems handling a 88 if I know it is coming or learn that I am up against a doctrine with 88s early game.

I also think you get frustrated by airborne actually having problems with vehicles, groundfire. The 57mm is much more reliable in hitting stuff like armored cars, which you probably know.

If FE forces a AB player to use both 57mms (airdropper or not) to support his RR's instead of just RR's thats just good for the game. You wouldnt fight pumas en masse with 2 RR squads either.

Smokaz actually has a point there, my AB only use 4 RR squads now, and rely on 57mm's for main AT.

RR's are there to prevent flanking and protect my advances.

I don't tend to have too many issues with 36's or 88's. If I can't crack 'em, ignore 'em, they can only cover so much anyway. Also most players tend to bunch their stuff round them so just keep hammering away with artillery use a mortar. flank the 88 with a sherman, use a sniper smoke + flame engies. The mortar emplacement is great vs flak36's and 88's.

but yeai agree, the +15 range is just sick, id ont know why it wasn't taken out a long time ago along with the range buffs on the tanks.

RRs also are largely uneffected by smoke (ask Fallen, his soul was reborn into the light of the airborne spam when I told him) because of their scatter, meaning all you have to do be safe from anything axis have other than grenades, mortars and flames is to mortar smoke wherever you are doing your hit'n run.

Good tactics or too complicated? Take a pick.

Btw as sick as 15+ range is its the only thing that makes the flakvierling viable other than as a anti infantry guard next to the 88, without this range it has no independant role. Only SE has flamers meaning airborne covered by smoke cant by hit by most PE weapons.

Also a 88 next to a flakvierling is even more vulnerable to mortar smoke, allowing both weapons to die in the same attack, but being equally strong against people who feed into their strong points, direct defense.

Mortars, spotters, snipers.. field defense builders. Utility units. If your company lacks all of these unit types its pretty gimmicky. AB has no excuse to not field a mortar with their supply drop.

dunno why RR range hasnt been taken out aswell

The range bonus is going to be removed, like most range buffs that can cause trouble to their supposed counters, that doctrine isn't 100% done so I can't know what's going to happen with this T4...

OK, i retract and refine my statement. Fortress Europe is overpowered vs. Airborne compaines.

Ill tell you exactly what happens here...

You hit overdrive, phase through the defending RRs, circle the 57, then proceed to rape the airborne.

I did have a replay of exactly this, but that was like 2 days ago, and ive played games since then. All the other videos ive tried to record doesnt show this specific scenario, just my airborne getting raped.

THIS is my problem with FE, and that's the Armored Cars and to a lesser extent the ISTs.

Ive got a problem that a non doctrinal light vehicle with a little range and damage boost makes Airborne MELT.

That a 270mp 50 fuel AC can utterly destroy swaths of 280mp 180muni Airborne squads and mabey only take a few hits.

+15 range means that AC's medium range is 35m (RR range), at this distance, 20mm AC gun has a 0.75 range modifier.
There is NO acc. modifier for having airborne armor. It's 0.75 for everything else, but IST and AC is 1 aka no acc. modifer.
This is significant because moving doesnt improve airborne survivability vs. ACs, while getting hit 75% of the time from the AC's main gun.

out-of-the-box FE AC does 34.5 dmg per shot.
Airborne health is 90 per man/420 per squad.

3 hits from a FE AC kills an paratrooper + change, that's not including the 15% co-ax boost, or calcuating dmg that the ariborne already has. 1 burst quite readily kills 2 paratroopers.

2 ACs can kill a single Airborne squad in 3 bursts. That is SO OP. With Overdive and extra range, Airborne cant get away without serious damage to the squad.

It's like reintroducing OF release armored cars again. It's Broken.

It completely shuts down airborne companies.
It's T17 vs. Shrecks and a Pak, the T17 is gonna win most the time in a static enviorment.

FE armored cars are even worse than this because of phase armor, and Overdrive which gets the ACs out of the area before proper counters can be brought into place.

It counters airborne to a gross degree, and no doctrinal ability should be able to shut down an entire doctrine.

Dont give me that "keep a 57 with you" shit. I know how to play, and you know it's just that easy to take that combo out.

They'll tell you to keep a rifle instead of an RR squad next to your 57 lol.

You already got an answer to the OP btw.

Im not getting into "Theory of Heroes" anymore than I have to.

It's all situational. GL stickying an armored car, that's a joke.

Stay at med. range, outside of sticky range, considering there is no acc. difference between. med and short range for the 20mm AC gun.

Edit- annnd no, I didnt get an answer to the OP. If I had, id be looking at the doctrinal rework sheet right now.

Tbh, I dont know why we dont have all those posted up somewhere for everyone to see.

Yep, it does exactly what you want, it stays away from the rifle letting the 57 rape it, it's not theory crafting, just a simple combination of units that turn into hard-counters.

Because they're not meant to be public, if you have a chance to look at them it's just luck.


You did get an answer, it's going to be changed.

 ::)

Some units still keept their range increase in the vet rework, but only units that dont "change" how you use them like the american sniper for example. Or the IST which only gets 35 range now, so it cant kite handheld AT anymore like it is possible right now at vet 3.
Also, the pic Akranadas posted somewhere did show range increases.

Another amazing counter to them is...get this....an M10...or even a Skirted M8, or M18, or Sherman. All of those are available to AB, cost little Manpower, only a tiny amount of MU, and use Fuel which don't use for anything else but Jeeps.

There are a lot of counters to units in this mod, whether people want to use them is a different matter.

All im saying, is play against it. The damage is done in a matter of seconds. God help your paratroopers if your caught in red cover...
Airborne are statistically at a disadvantage vs. a unit that gets a significant buff against them. It's not like Airborne vs. pumas. That's tolerable.

God how I wish Raid assault helped me in this department to the same degree as FE does, but what good is 35% extra acc. when the shots go straight through the damn vehicle.

An airborne co. is supposed to use Airborne. Only way around that is to use riflemen... and i mean comon, rly?

The best those vehicles will do is scare them away.

Scaring them away works for me, it means they aren't shooting me.

AB Rifles can get stickies too =)

Sure if all you play is Tanteville or similar its going to suck, but thats the way the map is built. It hugely favors vehicle heavy long range builds.

AC only gets 15% range, not +15 range at vet 3. Thats the flakvierling.

I'm gonna have to go with "RRs are BS hit'n run perfection weapons" against anything else than a select few units, or much higher population counters (IST + g43 squad against a single airborne is 14 pop).

Groundfire is a good player but this complaint is retarded. Airborne companies get the arguably best handheld AT on a very survivable squad, they do not get "I dont need to use combined AT" card.

If your main AT in a company is nothing but airborne, you are walking a thin line of fail. Even Cam knows this, and mixes in hellcats (which are much better than rrs) against pumas and AC's. 57mms two-shot armored cars and can be recrewed. Bazookas are available through supply drops. Stickies keep them safe or at distance, in the worst case scenario. And if you still are mentally unprepared to use anything other than Airborne as your AT, there's the noobish airborne elite that breaks the airborne counter system and make them ridicolous. It is much better than raid in many instances.

AC's do not shut down the airborne doctrine, it shuts down airborne squads without ABE. Its more a weakness lof the current doctrines that nothing buffs the offensive power of pumas, or they'd be just as evil against AB (with raid).

QFT.  When I found out about RR's having perfect accuracy through mortar smoke, I had renewed conviction to play AB.  I no longer have to worry about getting hit by anything.

To start off let me give a quick summary of part of my company.  I only have 2 things that actually do any type of AT damage, and that is AB and 1 m10.  I run 7 AB squads with ABE, and with many games of practice I have learned to use them effectively.  The +18% range is the best thing about ABE because it lets me pretty much pick at tanks until they die.  Idc if they have armored cars or vehicles or whatever.  My AB plus whatever AT my teammates can muster up are enough to kill the AC's.  7 AB squads with ABE, that's a lot, especially when 5 of them are vet 3.  They aren't invincible, though, which is why the rest of my company is all about protecting my AB and giving them the most opportunities to rape.  Even though I have so many resources invested in AB I still have enough other units to consistently produce the top score on my team.

At first the vet 3 flakvierling was a problem.  I didn't know how to counter it.  The rumors are true: it eats you up even if you just get to the edge of its range.  That's what smoke is for though.  Smoke allows for you to get within range (which isn't even that far with ABE) and fire off a volley, usually getting the flakvierling by the second volley.  Then, you can send in the rest of the infantry or just back off with the AB and wait for the next smoke barrage.

It sounds stupid I know.  I thought it was stupid too when I heard Smokaz first talk about it.  Even Mudkipz told me Smokaz had no idea what he was talking about.  But he does actually.  Smoke is fricking epic.  Mortar smoke is now an integral part of both my AB and Inf companies.  Now it annoys me when my teammates have like 1 mortar in their entire companies.

While we're on the topic of mortar smoke, just keep in mind that only the AB players will be benefiting from the smoke.  Any nearby ATGs, tanks, or infantry will have pretty much 0 accuracy when shooting into the smoke, so if you're trying to ambush a tank with ATGs then it's best to send your AB to the flank and try to smoke the flank for a few volleys.  Last thing about mortar smoke: it's faster to smoke and nade an MG than to try to mortar it out.  This actually applies to everything, not just MGs.

Summary: combine your pro AB micro with some mortar smoke.

^

The faithful have spoken, believe in the mortar smoke you heretics.

oh sure, let me tell the armored cars to hold on and sit out of range for 30 seconds while I redirect my mortar and then the smoke hits in front of the AB.  Oh, and make sure to tell the AC's not to go around the smoke, thats cheating.

If the AC's want to charge my AB while my AB are sitting in cover then so be it.  I'll just let them shoot at me while my AB and the rest of my teammates' AT shoot the AC's.

Mortar smoke is best used offensively.  I wouldn't think of using it defensively because then my teammates' weapons would have sucky accuracy and my AB would be the only units actually getting hits off.

So your AB never get caught out of cover?  Have you played vs Smokaz's company?  How do you handle flanking vehicles?

by pressing T

his name isn't smokaz for nothing :D

smoke is not a proper defensive weapon when the armored cars dictate where the fight is going to happen and for how long it will last.

smoke is offensive. it will work against verlings, not against armored cars, who will just avoid you untill the smoke dissipates.

Idk, maybe it's just me, but play smokaz like 5-6 times in 2 days, in a row, you'll get an expediated idea of what it's like to have your mainline infantry beaten so badly. On average, even if we won those games, I took some 130 odd casulties playing against that co.

this is absolutely not normal for me. Go ahead and try it. the first game you lose all your airborne you go "oh shit, that's just bad luck", and by the 5th game you'll see FE ACs are as broken as zeal grens.

Well I remember my Crete company and it ATLEAST got 150+ infantry kills per game, I bet I could remake that and overshadow (http://img502.imageshack.us/img502/3956/relic00096.jpg) a FE company at AI duty.

A++ would buy again.

man, that's a different situation.

your ass would get croc'ed and strafed, and i could avoid you if all else fails.

PE deserves to have a "fuck Airborne" doctrine.  I think Smokaz company is heavy on AI and lacks AT aside from those 88's, it struggled against my armour account.  I don't think his FE Luft is any better than a decent Crete Vets account. 


The Flakvierlings amazing vet bonuses are unwarranted though.

Yeah, im severly low on AT. I mainly play 3v3s with the company where the multiple 88s can have a great effect and get much support. Of course, trying to bring down the 88 with infantry is going to be hard when I have 2 or more AC's out ready to defend it. If I started to encounter a lot of mortar smoke in my games, I'd have to regear my company to more mortar halftracks and maybe a Hotchkiss stuka.

Fought these supposed death cars the other day, all in all, not that hard to deal with.

Saying you actually fought them, is stretching the facts a bit. Nothing happened for 30 minutes.

Just because we were crawling our ATGs up under cover of everything else =p No reason to rush you as I said Smokaz, we had map control.

we worked very closely as a team that game. Slow and steady won the race.
We slowly picked off your AC spam and crawled along from there. Lots happened the first 30 minutes.....like your stuff dieing :)