COH: Europe In Ruins

EIR Main Forums => General Discussion => Topic started by: Calstifer on January 05, 2010, 05:27:23 pm



Title: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 05, 2010, 05:27:23 pm
Im sure this is going to gain some controversy,  but ill try it anyway.

There is alot of talk on how to nerf the Jag and the KT to make it fair for allied players. I propose that we remove it alltogether.

People might say then the Pershing would become the ace tank, but the tiger would still be a tank to match.

Discuss...


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Trishut on January 05, 2010, 05:30:23 pm
I would say remove or nerf the repairs on the super heavys.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Unkn0wn on January 05, 2010, 05:32:35 pm
We intend on limiting to one per company soon.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: RikiRude on January 05, 2010, 05:35:18 pm
Honestly I think as long as they are reduced to just 1 in a company things would be fine. tigers and pershings don't need a limit they are fine as is as far as i can tell. after getting stomped the other night, if you use heavy infantry it can really beat out heavy tank companies. you take out all the support, the heavies will fail pretty easy.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: AmPM on January 05, 2010, 06:21:15 pm
Haven't had any issues with them yet, perhaps learn to use your units?


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 05, 2010, 06:31:21 pm
even if its 1 per company, you  can still have  2,3 or 4 in a game.  One is tough to take down  with basic tank tactics and repair. A rush with 3 HT and some inf will anhileate any At defence... no matter how numerous


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: AmPM on January 05, 2010, 06:40:08 pm
Really? So you are suggesting is that 3 IHTs with Infantry in them or Wehr HTs with infantry (8 pop each for HT and Infantry) plus a super heavy will get into and beat 40 pop of AT and infantry? That's 4 ATGs and another 4 squads of infantry + HMG or something else.

If you lose there, you fail.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 05, 2010, 06:48:59 pm
Forgetting something - mortors and newbls, too much range to counter, if we attack we're screwed... all in all  we sit there gathering shrapnil and flame untill tehy CAN roll in


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: fallensoldier7 on January 05, 2010, 07:01:30 pm
What's wrong with moving up with your AT force?  A lot of the time, the best defense is a good offense.  If you catch your opponents off guard before their reinforcements arrive then it could go well for you.  It's either that or sit there and be nebeled all day.

This is a lot of theorycraft; there's no way we can predict these kind of situations in a real game scenario. 

For the record, fielding more than 2 units of AT most of the time is overkill.  For 1 PIV, 1 ATG and 1 other type of AT (tank, sticky, Rangers, AB) will do the trick.  If the enemy has more tanks, then there's nothing stopping you from asking your teammates for help.  Even if your enemy has 2-3 heavy tanks on the field, you don't need to field 4 ATGs.  Use teamwork.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 05, 2010, 07:43:17 pm
One is fine, you can deal with that, its just a setback. But in games where you can get up to 4 tanks it takes alot more recorces to take down a heavy tank than it is to build  it for the axis. The tank alone is strong, with inf its invincible.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: AmPM on January 05, 2010, 07:59:49 pm
Huh? The tank alone is easy, with infantry you just have to know what you are doing.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: panzerman on January 05, 2010, 09:41:29 pm
i am pretty sure u just have had bad teammates

if you work together anything is possible!!!
:P

really KT if ur us u just need to get a sticky or 2 on it make sure it moves slower then anything on earth and wipe out the inf around it.

as axis a damage engine KT is almost useless unless they try and charge it which is just stupid.
jadg is a little diff but man it's pe they have a hard time and this makes it even for them.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 05, 2010, 10:58:19 pm
Even if you take out the engine on one, say we have a game with 2 KTs, a Tiger and Jadg on the field at once.  So you take out an engine on a KT, squads are blown away by supporting tiger, plus whatever mass suppressing mortar (silly if you ask me) and HMG fire, plus infantry squad support in the area.  Best allied tanks are Sherman and Firefly (non-doctrine) to counter this normally, with the best 'heavy' tank being a sherman available to Armor only (churchills don't count as none are on par with a real tank, and the Mk6 is notably missing from the tourney unlocks).

No one in my teams bothers to bring arty because its so one time and situational (105s, priests, 25lbers, calliopes).  They never pay for themselves and without doctrine recharge abilities or increased shells, they are pointless to waste the massive resource sink into currently when you have a nonstop firing, long range, accurate, suppression mortar in Wehr, and a non-counter barrage wehr Mortar HT (which the last few games I played was racking up easily 40+ kills and covered by massive amounts of infantry to instant flame round kill ATGs). Or a long range neb that instant suppresses and burns infantry and support teams alive and there really isn't any allied arty that can fire as rapidly as it needs to, to counter it.

If 25lbers had shorter recharge and 105 range, then maybe, but long barrage delays and uselessness in the middle for allied arty is exactly the same effect and reason why many of us allied players ignored off-maps due to unreliability and shortage of uses (105mm howitzer off-map, for example).

It's much easier to keep mobile forces to be aggressive to hamper axis, which discourages the use of ATGs, Mortars, and HMGs as they simply are too weak, slow, and/or short ranged to support rapidly advancing forces which is what's needed to take on the 'superior' quality of german units.  You don't fight germans head on, you need to flank, which requires movement and speed.

Many of us allies thought the game was far, far more balanced and fun before we reintroduced the KT/Jadg combos, with the M10 being useful for once and shermans performing on par with P4s finally.  Now it's just watch axis bring out (pre-patch) several 'pairs' of speedy jadgs (I believe their speed needs to be nerfed to KT speed), tons of infantry-blowing Tigers (wiping out whole squads, really?) and even more King Tigers.  It's like all the best axis players are using crutches to make up for poor skill by relying on simply a unit that simply drains the power and resources of most allied armies, even with teamwork.  Don't believe me?  Let's look at the leaderboards, which I made in another post.

Wehr has 13 of its 20 leader spots occupied by what I consider heavy or super heavy tanks (namely Panther, Tiger, and King Tiger), while the top spots for PE are a handful of Jadgs as most people don't play them compared to what Wehr can offer.

Allies you're stuck with fielding your elite infantry and a handful of shermans that just can't go toe to toe with that kind of stuff. I believe Calstifer makes many good points and observations, and when you look at the 'strength' of these powers, you're comparing currently unlocked T1s/T2s to what is roughly a T3+ equivalent for what many allied armies have to deal with and face.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: bbsmith on January 05, 2010, 11:04:47 pm
Use AT Guns.

That is all.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 05, 2010, 11:09:03 pm
Bob, not to be rude but do you not even bother reading threads and just follow after what Smokaz says?

ATGs were used, 5-6 AP round ATGs FAILED to penetrate jadgs, who killed them all, and their tank support and crushed their infantry support, pretty much alone (some long distance support from LMG grens to keep most infantry away).

ATGs are not an answer unless tank reapers is in to improve the performance of underperforming ATGs.  Now ATGs against NORMAL tanks is fine, like Stugs and P4s, but their super heavy ability sucks completely, and allied support teams like mortars, ATGs (for sniping) and HMGs can't support them because of much better and superior axis counterparts that can nullify all that.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: EliteGren on January 05, 2010, 11:14:42 pm
That's bullshit lionel.
AP rounds give you +500% penetration, which makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to bounce them.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 05, 2010, 11:17:15 pm
Tell that to me, Velocity, Littlehillbilly (I think it was him with Mass AP ATGs that game) and whoever our fourth was, think it was Jodomar or Maysauze, but we all watched 4-5 ATGs ALL FIRE AP rounds and ALL BOUNCE 3-4 volleys off the jadg, causing superficial damage as the pair proceeded to one volley shot our ATGs, m10, upgun sherman, and other infantry support like RRs and bazookas.

So I call bullshit on you.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: CrazyWR on January 05, 2010, 11:18:18 pm
Really?  I find it incredibly hard to believe you lined up 5 or 6 AT guns, popped AP rounds on all of them, and 2 Jagds sat there, took 0 hits, and raped every one in turn.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: EliteGren on January 05, 2010, 11:18:46 pm
You cannot bounce them.
YOU CANT


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Tymathee on January 05, 2010, 11:20:45 pm
That's bullshit lionel.
AP rounds give you +500% penetration, which makes it virtually IMPOSSIBLE to bounce them.

No it's not, infantry have bounced tank shots before, which have 100% penetration vs them, so there is def a chance to penetrate. The only reason that it has 500% is so it can penetrate KT armor but it's still pretty much 100%


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 05, 2010, 11:27:26 pm
Thanks Tym for your feedback, not a raw numbers person sadly (no access to RGDs or whatever and the like), but AP rounds do bounce, not against most medium tanks, maybe very few times against heavies like panthers/tigers, but they do bounce way too much against super heavies, and don't justify their 40 MU cost due to how ineffective they are.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 06, 2010, 12:05:36 am
off topic... people should we remove heavy tanks or not! Eneough of this childish squabling, we're (supposidly) adults and we will talk and act like them in this topic.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:20:47 am
Guess my post was deleted, so I will post again since no one has the decency to inform me why my posts keep getting deleted again, despite me asking about it.

I guess I'll answer you since that what it seems is the case, I'm for eliminating super heavys until doctrine choices are in.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Demon767 on January 06, 2010, 12:36:01 am
No!. Heavy tanks are not hard to counter!. you say things like you throw all your AT at 1 heavy and there always one left that you dont have enough AT for. if you lost your AT. its your fault! not OP Axis. They are easy. Slow and easy to counter when you have Teammates that are capable of communication and a lil thing called tactics before any heavy comes out, say i dunno, kill there mortars and Pak guns?.

Wittman nearly killed a Tiger with 1 RR squad. it had to go for repairs, only got 5 inf kills which was couple from those airborne that did it. wipped out the rest of the axis supporting inf. HMG.Mortar.Grenideir squad. wittman had the same thing basically. Airborne RR, HMG and Mortar. And he wiped out that whole Axis side.

KT is even Easier. Damage engine with an AP round AT gun or a Firefly work great against a very slow unit that takes time to get out of situations.

/thread you just fail.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:38:13 am
Heavys are fine, they're in line to be countered by dedicated AT and combined arms, I misread Cal's question.

What I am in favor of is banning of SUPER HEAVIES (Only KT/Jags), I'm fine with Panthers and Tigers!


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: AmPM on January 06, 2010, 12:43:22 am
KT's and Jadg's are both easy to counter.

With AP rounds you are almost 100% going to penetrate a KT, nearly the same vs the Jadg. Even BOUNCING they deal about 90 damage, more than a penetrating Sherman.

Want to kill those tanks? Move up with ATG cover, and stickies/brens. Its game over for far less cost.

Seriously, stop failing, you have longer range, do more damage per shot, and cost 1/4 the pop per ATG. There is no excuse not to win.

Also, check this out, dont line all your ATGs up to face the front armo!!! Zomg, move them so they are space apart, especially on the Jadg, if it rotates to face one, the other hits its side.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:49:12 am
Where it was there was no possibility to flank shot as it came with hedge cover on the side and axis units watching the hedges, so the jadg sits there and kills everything.  Only so much you can do in what is really the most 'open' part of the map without conceding the entire field.

And again I say BS on AP rounds always 100% penetrating a Jadg, I'll perform some tests tomorrow to verify that, but I bet you I can create at least a couple of bounces, that should negate your 'almost 100%' statement then?  Bounced barely shave any health off the already formidable Jadg from that game and several others I witnessed, but this one game was decided by two jadgs just hunting ATGs and tank destroyers and crushing infantry, a lot for a single, albeit power and expensive, tank.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: bbsmith on January 06, 2010, 12:50:16 am
with AP rounds
20m its over 100% chance
40m its about 80% chance
60m its about 75% chance


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:52:08 am
Ah so that would explain it, then at long range, a Jadg is then reasonably safe at sniping ATGs since the AP rounds now have reduced chances to penetrate and thus bounce?

By the way Bob, may I ask where you got this info so I can refer to some actual numbers and not have to be shouted down by everyone for my 'wild' claims of what possibly can't happen? Or is this something only a dev member can see with access to the code?


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: bbsmith on January 06, 2010, 12:55:29 am
Jagd's don't have 60 range.

http://www.coh-stats.com/


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:56:09 am
Well it was within range to shoot the ATG at whatever range it was, so what range is that? Would it be 40m then? We all saw on the allied teams 4 ATGs using AP rounds all bounce 3 volleys each off a Jadg with no penetration.

Some very, very lucky dice rolls I would say if that's only a 20% chance to bounce... what... 12 AP round shots? Well, diminishing returns since every volley from a jadg instant killed an ATG... so whatever number that would be.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: RikiRude on January 06, 2010, 12:56:49 am
AP rounds need unlimited uses with longer cool down. bring in your heavy tank, have them pop AP rounds, pull back, let them fade away then blow them up.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 12:59:24 am
Problem though Riki, it's only on the original crew, so hit it with a mortar, snipe it, infantry assault it and leave it... if it was like a pak gun and retained it, then yeah a longer cool down would work, but on the original crew that can also be tough (and I am not saying IMPOSSIBLE, for the record).


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Smokaz on January 06, 2010, 01:04:35 am
Solution: Make a "new" 57mm unit (dev: argghh) that incorporates ap rounds as a cooldown ability. Add the muni cost of ap rounds +10/20something on top of the 57mm (to reflect that it is no longer on cooldown but has limitless uses) and just make that cooldown reasonable, say 2-3 minutes.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: lionel23 on January 06, 2010, 01:06:17 am
Sorry Smokaz (call me dumb if you like), but could you clarify to me why a new unit has to be created in this instance? Wouldn't it just be better and maybe simplier (if it's possible with the dev team) to just edit the ability since only the US ATG has that ability and no one else?


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Calstifer on January 06, 2010, 01:35:21 am
I am persuaded, i change sides, topic can be locked if people dont want to talk about it anymore.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: RikiRude on January 06, 2010, 02:36:48 am
here's the thing though, what smokaz is saying if there is a new unit, then you don't have to worry if the crew gets killed and it gets recrewed.


just like how paks keep cloak even when they are recrewed.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: NightRain on January 06, 2010, 03:25:54 am
17 pndr, button + 6 pndr. Heavy tank? No problem

AS several times said, why focuse fire the heavy tank when the problem lays around it? Infantry, other vehicles which are way easier to destroy than the frontal part of the KT. Without that support 1 unit of TD called M10 can kill it by circle strafing. Hell one Tetty can do the same thing too.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Demon767 on January 06, 2010, 03:37:48 am
Nightrain is exactly right. We have forgotten about a unit which is farely under rated for the Brits. The 17pounder. which is a great counter to any S/Heavy tank you might encounter.



Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: fallensoldier7 on January 06, 2010, 03:42:28 am
Except you can't move it, so you have to lure the heavy tank into the 17 pounder.  When the 17 pounder fires, the Axis player will know it's there, so unless you can button it the first time the heavy tank comes into range, you most likely won't be able to get a chance to get many shots off.

Having 2 could work though.  A 17 pounder creep would work better since indirect fire doesn't hurt 17 pounders as much as they hurt regular ATGs.  Just keep one set up while moving the other one up, and keep alternating which one you move up.  Would be a very slow creep though since it takes like 30 seconds for a 17 pounder to pack up.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: Speigass on January 06, 2010, 04:09:00 am
And BTW 17 pounder is doctrinal...
And yes heavy tanks are pain to counter without sure penetration weapons, but it all depends on specific situation.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: EliteGren on January 06, 2010, 04:21:28 am
Button a KT infront of a HVAP 17 pounder and see what happens to it.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: LeoPhone on January 06, 2010, 04:37:17 am
id say this (After reading 1st post  only):

you can buy only one kt/jagt per company, if you lose one you must play two other games before youre able to buy another one.


Title: Re: Bold suggestion (yet another)
Post by: bbsmith on January 06, 2010, 04:38:56 am
That sounds like the old supply system! :( I miss setting people back like 3 games by killing their vet and pp units.