COH: Europe In Ruins

I feel like the mod in general is skewed towards vehicle spam.



There's a HUGE emphasis on vehicles and anti-tank. Infantry battles are comparatively scarce and any (non-AT) infantry brought in are usually brushed aside by armored cars or tanks.


EDIT: Nevermind. I thought about it some more and realized it's generally just light vehicle spam. Increase light vehicle costs across the board...Make them a somewhat significant fuel investment and increase manpower costs a bit as well

I know brooooo, totally agree.
Thats why im staying away from EiR a bit, im just doing vanilla til they get to solve theese issues.
But yeah, something needs to be done.

I for one support less Vehicle Spam :D

More German infantry on the field I say!

I think it is quite fun to micro vehicles, but yeah I agree on that tanks should be rare, atleast more uncommon.

Edit: But they have lowered the available fuel quite a bit, + reduced the availability of super heavies atleast, which are good :]

I don't think it's quite so much tanks as vehicles. For all intents and purposes they have no fuel cost, and the MP cost is quite low.

Vechicles are overpspammed that's true, in EiR we can see oppostie thing to vCoH were many players are noobish in use of infantry and think they are pro in tank battles, tanks are always easier to micro then infantry, so I support the idea of somehow limiting tank spam.

Allied Light Armour Spam (LAS) has been an issue for a longggg time. Since the T17s arrival its been an issue.

I see why tho, the British stag is very cost effective. For me it kill an average of about 10-15 men each on a good run. And I have 12 stag hounds so it worked out very well.

Stag needs a slight health decrease and a pop increase of 1.

its all factions Nate, not just allies...

PE spamming vehicles! Who would have seen that one coming?

Ive havent seen any PE/WM light vehicle spam of any effectiveness on the scale of the Stag/T17 spam.

have you seen anyone attempt to ;)

Yea, PE Armoured Car spam wiht 50Mms, but since allies have cheap MANPAT (55 MM bazooka and 90 MM boys AT), seems fairly pointless.

SO yes, Light Vehicle Spam is quite an allied thing to do.

isnt stag nerfed enough? compared to t17 he doesnt do all that well...

The only problem I got with this is that PE/Wer don't have any anti-light vehicles. Let's give a quick example: Rangers vs Armored Car-- I let you guess who wins. Then 2 shrecks squads against a stag: I again let you guess who wins....
Maybye giving a light anti at to axis might be good?
Such as 2x light panzershrecks or something like that? Something that could scare off light vehicles like rangers do with AC?

Anti light vehicles? You mean schrecks? 2 zooks = 150 dmg 1 schreck = 120 dmg.

I just played a game where i saw a double schreck storm 2 hit 3 stags that were full health, so i'd have to say that schrecks are a lot more effective.

It takes 4-6 zook hits to take out most light vehicles on wehr and pe and thats if they hit as they have worse accuracy than schrecks do. Pumas do just fine vs rangers imo, as do pe armor cared, and the LAT with FF is a lot better than any stag or t-17 at taking out infantry, 2 is over kill.

IMO, i see more axis lv spam lately and vehicle spam in general than i've seen allies. I play both sides remember and i have to totally change my allied company now to combat all the vehicles i've seen lately.

One thing with the fuel decrease that it's done is made less tanks but more light vehicles. So, I think that the vehicle pool just needs to be reduced instead of trying to lower fuel again. Cuz the thing about changing fuel prices on vehicles and tanks is that you create more space for something else to be used. So if u could afford 5 tanks and can only take 4 now with the 100 fuel decrease, that extra 150 that you have now will be used by light vehicles.

You mean like Panzerfausts and AT Grenades?

allied light vehicle spam again?

Uhhhggg, hang on, let me destroy this already broken record.

I did this yesterday to Snoop's T17 with 1 upgunned puma.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6Rb0M2MPtmA

If you fall victim to light vehicle spam, you rly only have yourself to blame.

hail groundfire, greatest light vehicle killer of all time! lol

That was PURE luck. The same pure luck that makes a cloaked m18 miss a upgun puma at short range. Way 2 go, groundfire.

Watch the video again you nub, it wasn't cloaked

Every shot the T17 hit didnt penetrate. Even in vCoH, T3 is the answer to T17 moterpool because there is such a slim chance of penetration.

Not to mention that was a vet2 T17. The extra accuracy would've done alot to combat the puma's received acc.

Also, just cause I got lucky, and that scenario came out far in my favor, that still doesnt remove the fact that the upgun is wehr's go-to T17 killer, by a long stretch, followed by the P4.

OMG that nub wasn't even Moving his t17. PuMas are epic fail versus t17's, froM what I've seen. I think that's what the consensus was last t17 thread (OMG Masacree you're such a nub you're using puMas!)

he's right people just say it is op cause there pak + shrek combo should kill everything! that is a vehicle

upguns are good for more than just that though in combo with p4 or a apanther there great for killing pershings and chruchills cause they get round behind and block and still do some damage.

+1

I think that the reason why many choose light vehicles is because for allied armored, they can capture and hold territory. They also deal a lot of damage and can get in and out of battle quicker generally speaking. I do, however, notice a bunch of players that have some light vehicles but also carry some pretty balanced companies. Light vehicles can make the game easier sometimes, but I also think that it's a tactical decision. Running a bunch of rangers in an allied company might be as effective as using a bunch of m8s or m10s depending on the player, but maybe the vehicles would be easier to manage for some.
I do, however, feel like I have a lot more urgency to keep multiple AT on the field rather than multiple anti-infantry units.

the bullshit is spilling. i use storms extensively and i know that i sure as fuck cannot one shot stags. I can one shot anything even shermans....buts thats with vet 3 storms all hitting on rear shots. so yeah....dont bullshit. It takes at least 3-4 hits to knock out a stag, not counting how many times u will miss.

Don't talk about stuff you don't understand; that's one of the most idiotic things I've ever heard. And to the video. What sort of fucking noob only has a T17 as AT? Normally there's an ATG around which will rip your upgun puma apart. Nevermind the fact - as Smokaz said - that it was pure luck you hit that vehicle at all. :S

jesus, can we ban nimitz from balance already?  He's worse than BigDick

He's right tho crazy,AT gun's and zooks usually follow around our little friend t17.

and paks and shreks and 50mm and laht follow axis light armor

who uses axis light armour in force though apart from PE

i roll with 1 upgun puma
or invest in repairs for them.

You know what happened the last time there was too much vehicle spam?

The PaK Man had to step in. Be cool guys.  8)

Some of you guys are really bad at arguing balance lol.

Anyway, carry on.
We'll have some patches coming in soon.

It WAS lucky - the puma and the T17 were moving almost all the time, and puma nearly never missed(if at all) - but it just goes to show the upgun puma isn't as terrible as people try to make it out to be.

Really any kind of vehicle spam is a pain in the butt. It's normally the one which r really good which get noticed above all the rest.

I am just reiterating what I learned from my GR mentors steekman and gunnersmate. Got a problem with that, talk to them.

And anyone can be caught with no AT in a situation like that. Snoop (aka Morello) is a fucking beast, and that was his T17.


This is correct.

Im trying to prove a point that the majority of the players in this mod do not use all the tools available to them to counter certain stategy; and that the 50mm upgun puma is underplayed in this roll.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=11720.0
I am abused, I am forgotten, I am worthless; I am the average infantryman

puma upgun misses all the time, and even if it hits, the dmg it does is a massive fail. t17 has 350 hp, stag 450.

and the stag main gun actually beats the puma easy.

You are forgetting if you are chasing down a LV your AT will most likely not be able to keep up with you, nevermind the fact a sherman/m10 can just use a hedge/building as cover and stop you from chasing the enemy LV down even if you have AT in the area.


Yes, it can happen, yes, he's a very good player, but normally there's always going to be some other sort of AT to stop your puma.

What about increasing all vechicles fuel cost (with no exceptions) by 50% and mp cost by 20%.

Vechicle spam is what makes EiR boring, noone uses mortar smoke, it's easier to boomrush with LVs instead of more brainy acctions.

Panther over 1200mP? No thanks man.

What vehicles are we talking about specifically??

Stags/T17s/ 50MMs.? These are vehicles that many have issues with.

If that is the case, I'd hardly call for all vehicles to have prices jacked up so high.

Even faction specific would be nice. All i keep seeing is this vague "people spam too many vehicles".

Why would we do that when we could just alter the fuel amounts and lower artillery unit prices to compensate if necessary.
I also don't see why MP levels would need to go up.

I'm under the impression (light) 'vehicle spam' is primarily an issue with the allies (Staghound and T17 in particular) so an across the board fuel reduction or price increase for all vehicles is probably not the best approach. We'll be looking into it though.

why not just reduce the availability of light vehicles. Hard cap them.

If we hardcap units, surely that just blurs EIR with OMG even more.

We should consider other solutions before we hardcap anything.

How about people stop theorycrafting on how they keep getting outplayed and begin outplaying the Light Vehicle users themselves? :P.

Stags and T17s could be somewhat underpriced(by 10-20 FU) - but they're not the godlike pwn-all rape machines people are trying to make them out to be.

LOWER THEIR HEALTH.

the stag is 50 fuel, and it gives you a uber fast light vehicle that does alot of dmg. (like m8) only then with the same health of a tank.

if you want to increase fuel of stag it should become 150 fuel, but it still remains a retarded OP unit since its so fast, does so much dmg and has so much HP.

pretty much the same with t17 but then less massive since its a doctirne unit and doesnt kill tanks.

If we're going to complain about the T17, then something needs to be looked at the ridiculous stuff PE can do with griefing companies, which I have fought Smokaz and EliteGren's crap in regards to that.

Mass LIGHT AT HTs backed up by 50mms, shooting retreating squads and using a single inf HT to pin all your men (by running up to you), the 50mms blow away tanks and ATGs with their high rate of fire, excellent mobility (no setup time, really?) and the Light ATs can stop any infantry or tank rush due to their mass sniping.  My last game the axis had no infantry on the field for 5-6 minutes and it was just pure griefing from nothing but pure HTs.  They need a price OR pool increase to stop low level companies from deliberately doing that.

I HAD 1 LATHT! ONE!

yes, i was in that game and it was stupid. You couldn't do much and it wasn't fun at all to play. May I add that all this killing retreating vet units is making me not want to play anymore. The main two units that grief would be the pe armored cars that chase your retreating units all the way back to spawn. Then you have ltat focus firing on retreating units and it is just stupid. I don't care about loosing vet but when people abuse certain abilities/units just to chase down your retreating units it is just dumb and really gay. You need to make it that retreating units can not be killed no matter what and that would make the game a hell of a lot funner to play. Right now the past 8 games i've played have been nothing but griefing and its really turning me off from the mod. I can't imagine new players wanting to stay if all there stuff is going to get raped while retreating. I don't really have a problem with other units just the pe armored car and ltat that are the main thing used for griefing.

Isnt the mass sniping on like a 5min cooldown with a 20second duration? Meaning that lhat's can only do that for 6% of their existence?

I agree with the retreating killing though, Ive noticed shermans seem really good at this too, its fucking upsetting. Lets just make all retreating units invulnerable. This makes tanks much harder to vet than troops so we need a similar function for tanks.

Brits also have the ability to grief by using the recon sniper shot on retreating 1 man squads

this

ya that is true but that recon squad can't warp speed past a whole army just to kill your vet.

yeah, the mass vet griefing is just annoying lately lol. But heres one thing i've noticed with some of these pe companies, they're terrible at assault and are purely made to be defensive. If u can get enough territory, u can wait them out.

50mm and LAT's are best used on defense

Yeah very true Tym, I've noticed it a lot the past few days with the mass PE griefing. And yeah you could wait them out since its like ATGs, not exactly an 'offensive' weapon since its really a stand-offish kind of weapon.

Thing is with mass HTs armies, they have incredible speed to get where they need to go while footslogger armies and medium tanks (ie not TDs) have to travel, so in terms of mobility, PE is king in getting someplace first, the fastest.

@Jodo

1. New players hardly have any true veterancy worth keeping or crying about to be thrown off by being vethunted.

2. In the case of new players having veterancy, they do not fight teams such as smokaz/elitegren, or others that have the strategic insight to create anti-vet companies. Even if they did fight the people using that kind of company - these people would opt for other companies entirely because vet-grief companies don't have vet of their own - and gaining vet off newbies on a "real" company is just a lot easier.

3. In the case of a new player with veterancy somehow fighting any player that does make a vet-hunt coy, most of these old players have the basic logic capabilities not to annoy newbies - as they may grow up to be good members of the community in the long term.

4. If we made retreating units unkillable.. What do you think would prevent players who risk their unit's lives all the time, generally letting vet die in gruesome ways from retreating at the very last second to eventually form retarded pure vet 3 armies? Veterancy has the main drawback of being scary to lose - with a failsafe retreat button that makes you unkillable.. You'd be giving a massive boost to vet.

well then they should lower the acc for pe armored cars/ltht focus fire vs retreaing units and puma. That way you can still lose vet if you keep it in there to long but can't really be hunted down across the whole map. That is the issue i present which is being hunted down by fast armored cars or super accurate focus fire gayness. I don't take an issue with loosing vet by keeping them in the fight to long but i do have a problem with armored cars chasing them down, along with focus firing on retreating squads. I want that to stop because it just really isn't any fun. I don't get mad when i loose vet to the homosexual tendencies of some players but i does make the game totally unfun to play. Thats what i'm here for fun after all, and when that gets taken away why even play.

This thread....
(http://imagefrog.net/out.php/i88885_graph.jpg)

Lionel, you have a large amount of vetted units. How you get all that vet honestly is questionable at best. However, I can only assume that you follow honorable play and there is not a possible bug creating vet at a faster rate than is intended.
That being said; you run around with a massive blob of vetted units steamrolling the axis. This is very frustrating to play against as well.
It doesn't take a genius to realize that eventually members are going to get frustrated with your army and do what they can to take it out. I personally have taken it upon myself to vet hunt the living shit out of these massive vet armies. Whether it be yours or somebody else. I really don't give a shit if I win or loose, just destroy the massive vetted army.
So here's some advice. If your vet is soooo precious, leave it off the field.

In regards to balance changes. Changing the behavior and or cost of a unit because it is used to vet hunt would be about the stupidest thing this mod could do. To even make that request makes me question the abilities of the player requesting it.

Have a nice day  :)

Back to light vehicle problem:

T17 and Stag

these units are light vehicles. light vehicles are used for recon, flanking support weapons and killing unsupported infantry without AT.
t17 and stag do this. however...

they also kill PE vehicles in two shots.
this is because the t17 and stag have a x4 penetration mutliplier vs all PE vehicles
the devs will probably fix this.

but then they still rape wehrmacht.
why do they do that?

1: because after they have furfilled their purpose of recon, flanking support weapons and killing unsupported infantry without AT, they simply continue with killing their counter. the reason for why they do this, is very very simple: their health is too high.

light vehicles are not tanks. light vehicles are cheap and simply do one job. if they encounter a problem, they die. thats how it works.
you can use tanks are used for fighting real AT.

tetrach has 300 hp
stuart has 300 hp
quad has 315 hp
m8 with skirts has 300 hp
puma has 310 hp

staghound has 450!! hp
t17 has 350 hp (with sandbags)

the health of the stag is obviously just a retarded tales of valor stunt and needs to be fixed.
compare it to the ostwind: both AI, both ok vs light vehicles too, only the stag has 50 hp more than the ost, but costs 125 fuel less and is uber fast.

t17 is a bit less bad since it needs to pay munitions to become useful (like the m8), is a doctrine vehicle, and cant do dmg to tanks and marders.
it can- hower destroy all PE vehicles and support weapons, but i hope the 4x penetration will be fixed soon.

ofcourse you can higher the pool value, or increase their price, but the unit itself still stays one retarded thing with no comparison.
you can't call that a fix, thats more like hiding the problem. lower stag hp plz, and fix their penetration multiplier.

and now i'm all in it, it wouldnt be bad to lower roo health too a bit, and higher ostwind health. but thats another subject.

Vet is quiet easy to get when you retreat at 20-25% life. I have close to, if not, the most vet in the current game and only loose vet through direct attempts to kill said vet (chasing to spawn) or just not noticing my vet 3 captain fight a MG42 by himself.

Staghound is handy and all, but without the ability to be vetted at all it serves as a throw away unit. People can use it with 0 fear of it needing to stay alive, thus it can stick around and go for those extra few kills till its dead. The stag also helps with suppression, of which the British have little of.

Half-track spam on the Axis side is annoying to play against. You can only scout when there is a hedge available (then get mortared) otherwise you loose infantry to focus fired half tracks. While perhaps not with the same flair as the Staghound, anti-tank halftrack spam is effective at pushing allies back. Throw in an IST or a Hummel and you create a very quick game. Allies need to then go balls to the wall and break out, otherwise its GG.

I barely have a lot of vet, not compared to my last company.  I do like the accusation that I'm somehow cheating or hacking my vet up when people have more vet than my own company posseses?

Now it's people like you who just do nothing but grief.  You don't aim to win, you just aim to make it the worst possible time for the other team AND gimp your own team in the process.  It's like when I played against a guy who brought out 5 or so snipers and then had his army eliminated from the game.  His teammates didn't know that and I felt bad that they had to be with someone who just overall isn't going to help your team win a game and is all after his own personal vendetta mission regardless of the game.  That's griefing in my book.  According to a quick Web Search, griefing is defined as:

A griefer is a player who plays a multiplayer video game to irritate and harass other players, rather than in pursuit of game objectives

And now referring to your quote:


The whole point EIRR is persistancy, vet lives and dies yeah that's a given, but to not even bother to play the game correctly just to intentionally lose and cause as much damage as possible doesn't seem to be in the fair spirit of playing EIRR, but hey that's just me I guess, huh?

And also FYI, my company is very easy to counter, use basic infantry and people need to stop relying on just shrek infantry to counter rangers.  If people actually took the anti-inf counter to rangers, my company is put to shame really, really fast (ask Jinker, as he is the best person I fight against that knocks my company out cold).

And I disagree with you in that certain grief actions should not be changed.  Look at G43 slow.  That was changed because too many PE players were using it JUST to stop a retreating unit by stacking it on a squad 2 or more times so they could gang rape it.  That isn't how the game is suppose to be played, its not about 'freezing' units just to spite your opponent, its about fighting on the field and using tactics.  I use a mix of rifles and bazookas and duel at range, that's what I love the most about infantry.  The other huge grief issue I've had to face is the flame hummel rounds that last for 4 mins (I believe the ability is called Chemical fire?).  Having that fired on the road to your spawn or behind you just so it instant kills any infantry that retreats, even if its full life is ridiculous.  The time OR damage needs to be toned down.  I don't mind it when say Uglysori fires it on me, he's using it as intended.  But to have someone just keep firing it behind way behind my lines and even if i retreat a full health squad, it still dies to fire is just silly.

How about the devs just remove the 50mm HT, the Stag, AND the T17 from the game. Instant balance.

so how is chasing retreating vet 3 rangers or howies with LAHTH or 50mm to chasing vet 3 tigers and panther of the field with double or even triple m10's even though it is almost dead and will be useless and a waste if u keep it on...

have a cry, people hunt vet to they don't have to fight it the next time!

+1

The difference is you're using an ability to kill the retreating unit as opposed to using the unit normally.  Example, chasing a retreating ranger squad that retreats through a Knights Cross unit, and the M10s are normally chasing the Panthers in your case.  I don't think it's okay when you use an ability that negates their retreat bonus entirely, the same thing that was wrong with G43 slow was that it gave the axis a significantly better edge in killing vet off than any allied infantry unit could muster in stopping axis vetted inf from getting off the field.

Also remember that was also another reason assault nades and stun nades were removed... remember when rangers could throw a stun nade that froze an axis squad for 4-5 seconds so they couldn't move and died from gunfire and tank shots? Or the assault nades 'stunning' retreating squads?

1. Chemical fire does NOT affect Hummel Incendiary Barrage. This one lasts for 90 seconds, all the time, regardless of other doctrine choices. And yes, it's likely being nerfed soon.

2. I don't imagine how the LATHT with focus fire can exactly hunt retreating infantry, when it's slowed down so much by FF that it only barely keeps up with standard speed infantry. Also - with the moving accuracy of the LATHT and the recieved accuracy modifier retreating inf gets your LATHT will hardly hit often enough to be effective at vethunting.

3. G43 slow was changed to not affect retreating infantry because it was possible to do so. It's impossible to make only armoured cars weaker against retreating units, however - unless with retarded amounts of work granting new armour types to infantry as they click the retreat button. And I severely doubt gamesguy has both the time and effort to do that - as it's just hours upon hours of work fixing something that is hardly even an issue.

4. Hunting and killing vet is part of the game - deal with it. People hunt vet not only because it's fun, but also because it allows them to have easier games later on against the same enemy. It's strategic insight - and it's logical to do so. If you're too afraid to loose vet - don't bring it on the field.

5. Ranger stun nades were removed because they outright disallowed the use of a unit for 5-10 seconds : which was retardedly OP. Not because it negated veterancy(though it was a part of being disallowed use of the unit). Assault stun nades have been replaced because they're considered detrimental to both balance and logic.

THIS WHOLE GOD DAMN THREAD IS JUST... TL;dr (Too long to read)

Small and concise post people..

i just watched the tanteville game in which elitegren spammed ht.

it works well but i did not see 2 many 50mm raping inf they got a few of the atg but the atg got a about the same amount of ht so wat was the problem...

same with the light ht it is good at killing inf but needs a couple of zooks or a tank to kil it.
it is exactly the same problem as stags and t17's for axis

If you keep putting pressure on enemy vet they'll start to hesitate using the units properly, thus the vet turns on them. Their rage meter builds up and they make more mistakes. Their teammates start to question his decisions and team chemistry worsens. Proper potential teammates begin to criticize said player's muscle. This goes on until he realizes his brain is just a detriment to his muscle. Finally he rids himself of brain and releases his inner muscle - NO FEAR, NO PAIN.

Wrong Thread?

Nope, just responding to the vet hunting debate.

You mean you read this thread?  :o


Edit: People stop making sense after page 2 or 3  :-X

No, I just scrolled through and saw the words "vet" and "hunt" in the same sentence, then I read.

I would have expected you to cultivate discussion on how vethunters are evil and need to die - create drama in other words.

Not post some philosophy on muscle :(.

Muscle is a way of life, not some brainy philosophy.

A key point to hunting vet, and keeping customers, is to make it look accidental (not saying I've done this). Simply chasing retreating units is too obvious, although that too has its benefits. Also, I wonder what percentage of goliaths get detonated after the squad hits retreat as opposed to before?

That's like a minigame actually. Who presses the button first. How close can the goliath get, shall i wait longer?

How long should i wait before i retreat? Should i let him get any closer?

Yeah, it's almost like a chicken race. Shall I kill the vet 2 now or hope for double vet 3 later? Shall I retire my squad from this game or permanently and be done with the goliath, or should I let him know that I feel no pain nor fear?

Bainy, your next vid should show-case the dark side of persistency/vet.

Oh fuck no on this. We changed EIRR t17 gun. Before it, in Vcoh, a t17 and an upgun puma were pretty much equals. By light vehicles spam, we mean, well ever saw a 3 m10/t17 and 8 rangers squads combo?

And just by the way, when I said light anti-tank, I didnt mean the schreck. Something that would only damage light vehicles, and without any penetration to heavy armor.

We have done nothing to the T17 gun but removed stun shot.
All other changes were made through relic patches; which yes before, like straight after ToV, the T17 was able to take down pumas, but it hasnt been like this for about a year.

How bout we get our facts straight, mkay?

If your confused on what we've changed and what isnt changed, ill refer you to the vCoH > EIR stat change list.
http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=13548.0