COH: Europe In Ruins

I suggest that bren tommies and bren carrier MGs no longer can button vehicles if those vehicles are under the effect of blitzkrieg assault.

Blitzkrieg assault is a t3 and it becomes completely useless if you get buttoned since the button takes the same time as bkassault itself. it shouldnt be possible to counter a t3 this easy.

people might use the ability to escape button to save one of their vehicles, but this means they just lost one bkassault they could have used instead for killing two or three allied vehicles.

It also fits the abilty itself perfectly: would you stop your tank if a few little guns are shooting at your tank while all your allies are rushing forward? if you use this t3 to  rush in, the least you could expect from it that you actually can move forward.

edit:
title changed after discussion went out of hand.
New suggestion is to nerf button(make it the same as volk mines would be a good start) + no button at all if vehicles are under the effect of blitzkrieg assault.

Getting buttoned seems entirely the opposite of what you would expect out of a blitzkrieg assault. They stop for nothing. I second this.

yeah, you try to be agressive for a change using ur awesome t3, but instead u get owned hard for no reason.

Well to be devil's advocate here, I see it as the tommies are blasting away at the places where the crew can see out of and such, and it wouldn't make much sense to drive blind, even with a tank: you just don't know where you're driving anymore!

Nah, I'm with Leo here, Blitzkrieg should be some kind of Fire Up for tanks.

+1, personally with brits having ATGs, I think button should be removed in general, I think the main reason they had it in vCoH is because the only form of mobile AT before a firefly was a PIAT squad which obviously needs that tank/vehicle to be slowed down to hit them.

+2
only just lowering the effect of button - so it will only slow the vehicle a bit like volks mines + not removing gun fire completely but only reducing reload a bit would be enough.
I actually cant believe button is still in the game as it is. brits have more than enough AT.
u might say brit atgs are worse than us ones coz they dont have heavy cover, but i actually prefer the brit ones: enemy cant spot u trough FOW using green cover + it cloaks.

I agree on this to, the tanks must live up to its ability!

I've been saying that brits don't need 14 second button because of the ATG...

Still people told me that brits need it for some reason. But I like to use it to button tanks and kill them with no effort. Full health P4? Dead quite fast. Tiger? Quite fast too. KT? Nah you get it half health by bringing all the crap you got to shoot at it. What else? Oh panther? very easy. You see, brits with button that's all you need

+1
You can have ace micro but all it takes is one bren squad to lose a full health tank because they can hold you there for a ridiculous amount of time (enough to bring up ATGs and other support to fuck your tank. As long as brits have ATGs of their own, button should get nerfed a bit.

Normally if you probe with a tank, you may take 1 ATG shot and be able to back away, but with a bren in the mix you can kiss your tank goodbye no matter what.

Sorry but if you decide to not support your tank with infantry and it gets buttoned and died then you av no excuse.

lol a tank can still see who is buttoning it, and alot of axis tanks are man eaters

name one unit/abiltiy/weapon that will cause instant death to your panther if you dont support it.

only things i can think of:
mine causing engine destroyed. this is rare, and even more rare if it happens on the frontline and you are able to react. button is something you control and the result is you have an atg/piat supporting the button always.

jeep blocking ur tank. this wont stun ur tank for 14 seconds and is not really reliable... + there are lots more brens than jeeps in a company.

triple m10 rush? you can't compare that to a cheap 5 pop bren squad + 4 pop atg  sitting somewhere safe in the back.

also, even if you support your tank with some grens or volks, it will take a while for them to kill the bren squad, and in that time the atg has eaten half the health of ur tank if not more.
and thats the best case scenario where the brensquad is unsupported.

The worst are upgunned bren carriers - virtually immune to small arm fires and can button any tanks that try to combat them.

Wouldn't "ace micro" include not sending a full health tank anywhere near a Bren squad? It's just the same as sending a full health tank near rifles with stickies? Even with ace micro, if you're sending your super heavy anywhere near a bren squad unsupported then you're doing it wrong!

+1 to making bren useless/reducing its effects against Blitzkrieg Assault. I don't think button needs to be changed in other circumstances, you need to be pretty damn close to be able to button. If anything, drop it from 14s to 8-10s.

Even better why the hell are you sending that 1 tank alone?

a undermentioned problem here is certainty... while 1 shot from the tiger MIGHT force the retreat of any allied squad, button strikes with undeniable certainty

Well said brah.

button is easier to hit than stickey, 1 coz it has good range, but mostly coz u can instantly button if the tank get's near enough.

and as i already said, exept if u have two kch walking next to your tank it is gonna take a while to kill the tommy squad. and in that time your tank = dead. the bren carrier might be even harder to kill since your main AT platform has been disabled and the carrier has awesome health.

plus a bren + atg is only 9 pop. it can hold back any vehicle + light infantry. a medium tank is already 12 pop, so if you bring stuff to counter the bren, your opponent has probably stuff to counter your bren counter.

Botton is easy to back out of off unless you have very poor micro.

you might think that. but this is only the case if the button is used at complete max range.
this doesnt often happens coz button has 30 range. (stickey bomb has 14 range)
button can also be used right away. result is that u get buttoned easy with range to spare so u cant back out.
with bren carrier MG you can just rush right into the tank. not to mention kangaroos...

It's pretty easy to kite button, unlike stickies, it doesn't go through buildings and hedges, and thus you can kite it like you would kite normal infantry.

How is a bren carrier or kangaroo buttoning all that different from jeeps blocking?

Jeeps die in one shot to paks?

+ jeep block can fail. button doesnt.

and trust me, you cannot kite button.

A well made attack by tank and hordes of infantry can be defeated by: one MG, Bren squad and a ATG.

Ingame- it just happens and work

people can say anything they want, it'll happen- always ;D Bren button fails only in certain spots but generally 80% it works- or then I'm just pr0 with brensquads

dont send your tanks without infantry support? Its your fault for not supporting it, not the "opness" of button. Fact is, it's completely vulnerable while it's buttoning and can even be ran over by a tank cuz it wont dodge. So even if you have a single volks squad nearby, you could be able to take it out.

Plus, its 30 range, most tanks are 40 range, you can kite button just like people kit schrecks which btw is 35 range.

A lot of shrek kiting is just remaming at long range for the shrek, not actually staying beyond 35, it only works because shreks miss a lot. When does button fire miss? I think its fine as it is, but your argument as to why it is fine isnt very good.  The problem I do see with button is that its very unforgiving, its a reasonably cheap ability which in the hands of a good player means 1 mistake with your 500 fuel panther means its dead...

yes but if you're trying to kite it, ur going to stay at its max range and even if it does catch you, you'll get out of it

That is true, the biggest thing with button ( on tommies due to bren gun) is the unit can deal with light infantry and ward off tanks, unlike say a shreck team, where its anti tank deterrent actually decreases its versatility. That is the strength of button, that upgrade makes the unit more versatile, improving its anti infantry and adding a new dimension to the unit as a whole, it gives it a tank deterrent.

If i may, button ability was in original CoH because (as already mentioned by others) the Brits anti-tank abilities were quite poor at the time.

My personal experience in-game, is that 9 out of 10 times a tank gets buttoned, it's dead.

I wouldnt quite go that far, it REALLY REALLY comes down to the player, simply pulling off a button does not mean tank is dead, it jsut creates an opportunity for you to bring your other AT to kill the target. However in the hands of a good brit player with a solid team, yes I would say if the tank is buttoned, its lucky to get out alive.

My concern with tanks getting immunity to button isn't why it works, or how.

Instead, it makes me concerned that you're going to see a pair of P4s just thrown forward at an entire enemy line with the expectation that they'll break through and own everything.  They shouldn't.  Blitzkrieg is a very strong ability, we don't need to throw anything else on top of it. 

they might get past the atgs with less hits than normal, but they also wont hit anything themselves at long range. if u have some zooks stickeys piats rrs mines or tanks it wont work, but at least the p4 can die moving and killing some stuff with it instead of this retarded shit.

A blitzkrieg P4 is going to overrun most standard AT, or even a sherman.  In EiR, very few people have more than a few pieces of AT on the field at a time anyway, you simply can't afford it.  Zooks won't do enough damage and will get run over.  PIATs won't hit a rolling blitz tank.  RRs won't go through it fast enough.  The best option would be mines, from what you listed.

Now go to just brits. You listed......PIATS.  A crom can't face down a P4 if the P4 is upgraded at all, anyway, and a P4 will run down a firefly. :-\

that will happen if u suck yes

This sums up what I've been thinking while reading. It's easy to get out of button at long range, and the Brit's AT is better than vCOH but not much.

I dislike button and stickies equally, but without it the only thing Brits have to counter axis heavies is the Firefly, and you can't field enough of them. Piats are completely useless without stopping them completely, and the brit ATG has no armor pierce, so it is not a deterrent to Panthers and Tigers, let alone the KT, which is nearly impossible for them to penetrate.

Do not nerf my precious button.

without button for brits against blitz, blitz would be highly OP against brits, against ami it's different because they've got normal handheld AT that tracks moving tanks.

Also, it gives blitz a weakness, tbh every high level ability should have some type of weakness, if there isn't some type of penalty of weakness to the particular ability then something isn't right.

lower the speed penalty of button, and lower it a bit more on everthing under a tiger.
button still works at close range but only for a short moment at long range.



exactly. there is no counter to button so obviously its broken. blitzkrieg assault is a t3, button is the nr.1 weapon brits use.
blitzkrieg assault has counters like mines and stickies. I guess making button completely useless vs blitzkrieg assault is a bit too much. but the tanks should be able to drive out of the button easier while under the affect of blitzkrieg assault.

but how else can we stop a charging panther/tiger in front of our atgs US have stickies
and cheaper inf to dive into the tracks

sappers in ambush mode? if the bren is close it still buttons for a long time? bren carrier can just drive into the tank and then button? sappers have mines? cromwell easy flank at close range? use trenches so u wont be run over?

Sorry leo, but tbh if you get buttoned its your fault.

see bren squad use a sniper, Stuh (fires out of the range of brens), pumas, lmg grens, a grenade. or don't rush into a british line alone.

I have come to hate button, sure it renders one tank useless but it also renders the inf buttoning useless. The inf do not seek cover, can be run over by any tank. Toss a grenade they stand still and will die. They will not fire on other infantry. So if a bren, sapper combo are killing a tank, ignore the bren squad, kill the sappers with inf. Same with an atg.

But usually its shame on you for getting buttoned.

Buttoning alone doesn't kill you, its a combo that needs to be supported to work, and im sorry if you were dumb and charge into it alone but hey, thats your fault.

no chance unless u play a noobish person panthers reverse as fast as my croms and lighter tanks tryto flank unless u button then u have no chance of getting behind as for sitting in trenchesinital surprise gd but u ever hev to get out or get mortared out

Button is fine. Stop letting a 30 range ability(which is instantly negated by reversing if popped at long range) rape your 40 range tank.

we were talking about axis rushing in, not allies.

Why would you ever rush in with a Panther or any other tank for that matter? Blitz affects infantry too, use them with their faster firing to clear the path for your tank, then exploit the break in the line.

yes but when u start to flank the panther then nevet shows its rear armour to a crom an an ff our only tank destroyer cant go toe to toe with a panther so has to stay bck
brit tanks suck at heavy AT duty

The problem is that certain axis players see one thing thats not easily beatable and they start whining OP

How about the next to unbeatable 5 nebel 280 blob, that will crush any tank and infantry that come near it?

we fixed that :p

not when i watched my churchill croc get killed by 3 of them firing 1 barrage while it was hulled down (that was last night)

Or 1 hit a flank speed moving crommie and kill it in 1 shot

which doesnt neccessarily mean they were 5 pop ? apparently price list still says 5 pop but this is supposed to be fixed

Oh, it is indeed 5 pop :P

my crommie died that night didnt stand a chance :{

And don't you lie to me sir - a roflneb only deals 150 damage. Not enough to kill a Churchil in one volley of 4 - and especially not enough to kill a hulldown churchil.

meh, its a specialty of the brens, leave it alone, each weapon has something interesting for it.. just leave it... stop whining, and play.

perhaps a decrease in range to say 27 or in time from 14 to 10, these are the tweaks we need to work on to make this a serious badass mod, not take out button or increase blitz

u dont have to nerf things because ur micro sucks u know
like this guy above, nerf range? the tank already has greater range than the bren ability plus if he buttons u from far away u can just move a bit back up and it will go off. People, learn to micro and stop whining.

buttons' already been heavily nerfed ffs, the time is shorter, they nerfed it so it doesn't immediately stop tanks from firing and the less men you have in the squad, the slower it takes to fully stop the tank, which cuts into the button time, also when you are buttoning, you can't dodge, and they can easily get raped, if you get buttoned and u can't stop the squad, you're playing wrong and soloing your tank.

Button is fine. honestly If you're a heavy tank user(ala taking Blitzkrieg ability) Then you should have no problem. If he buttons a tank you drive him over with another tank. Shit you can even precision strike him if you really want to.

Ever tried buttoning a P4 IST. It disables the main cannon last, which means you only stop his movement and he wrecks your face.

Button won't be changed there is nothing wrong with it. especially on tommy squads. Button bren carriers is a little more of a vet hunt tool but again they die really quickly.

Kangaroo's are a separate matter entirely

Wish I could fix the post like that...

no argument here.

Kangaroo gone. Cuckoo in place. I'd rather fight a British panther then a British kangaroo. even taking into consideration how weird it is to hear "British Panther"

OooOOohhh, so instead of teh ghey kangaroo, we get the cuckoo, same stats as a normal pantha?

+1 brits need a hvy AT tank

Roos were used by they brits. The Cuckoo was 1 tank and if it did get brought in would fit only with Commandoes as they were the ones that captured it. It just doesn't make sense.

Roos aren't even that difficult to kill, they are just a heavily armoured clown car that doesn't suppress.
PE gets a faster version with less armor that is actually useful by its self

Reverse lend-lease. Let's imagine the Russians transfered their captured Panthers to the Brits, since their conscripts were too stupid to drive them anyway.

Roos are outright stupid. They literally don't have a single weakness, and can kill anything. In the case of a Roo dieing - the Roo user fucked up something fierce.

No its becoming more of a case of Axis saying everything is OP these days, and whining and whining till it gets nerfed.

Croc is OP - 1 p4 can kill it
Roo is OP - tread break and marder rape
And i forgot to mention 2 hotckiss' upgunned and properly microed will decimate nearly any allied armour
and on and on and on. But instead of just playing a little harder, no you got to come up with lame multi-unit combo's as to why you can't kill them and need then nerfed/removed

Both PE and Wehr have to have a good way of dealing with a Roo.

Either way, its a Roo, just don't play in an urban environment. It's the Piat shooting over and through shit that makes them a pain in the ass, not the Roo itself.

And even in a urban environment, just stick a big fat juicy target on one side of a building and put a mine on the other it will bag you a roo everytime

Myst plays both sides, if anyone knows more tactics than anyone on this board its him, i'd listen to him whine about something being stupid before i listen to anyone else tbh.

Next time you flat out lie to me, make sure that I haven't used the units you're lieing about.

Assuming the Roo is not charged retardedly at the marder for some obscure reason - you won't get to tread break in the first place, since it'll use shot blockers. A unit HAVING a counter does not mean the counter is in any way adequate, or that the effort required is at all balanced.

Given even basic skill - the roo will defeat quite frankly anything in a direct firefight(mostly to do with the roo's ability to either remain out of the Line of Fire of the enemy, or being able to button the few things that might crush the roo's cover/catch up with the roo.)


Yes, hotch upguns rape pershings and churchils - I'll agree with that. They more or less so are useless versus Shermans and M10s, however. Not to mention "Tu Quoque" argumentation is absolutely retarded - one thing being OP does not in any way justify another thing being OP.


Also thanks Tymmie.

So you mean I have to use at least 2 units, pre-plan where you might move your Roo, then ambush it afterwards while taking damage on my unit that is supposed to be bait?

To basically cancel out a cheap armored transport and a piat squad...assuming they aren't smart enough to get out of the Roo when the mine goes off, then use it to block my units that try to get to said Piat squad, while the Bren guns and PIATs rape some face?

Pio with mines....
Fat juicy target....
other support units to complete ambush....
Luck to make that Roo go just where I want him...

vs

Roo...
Bren...
Piat...

OK fine, if your defensive shove an 88 in an open field, roos aren't going to bother you

Blitz, hey you got a tiger team it with a pair of anti-inf and anti-tank storms and nothing will hurt it

Terror, KT open area

And your playing EIRR meaning you got teamates

OK, fine, Assymetric Warfare riflemen aren't OP.

If you're defensive, get 4x pumas with omniscience on the field and don't let the riflemen ever come close.

Terror - Aggressive Maneouvres 4x pumas with recon in force.

Blitz - 4x Lightning war pumas!

And you're playing EIRR meaning you got teammates. They can each get 4x pumas too.

a KT winning vs a roo? LOL

You don't think it can beat a roo?

With equal micro and no other supporting units - the Roo should definitely win due to being able to outrun the KT's turret(much like M10 vs KT) and to button it should the KT's turret somehow manage to catch up with the Roo.
If the KT user is better at micro than the roo user, of if the KT has at least a single pak in support - then the KT should win. But the point is that Roos are overpowered - this is NOT the same as saying the roo is utterly unbeatable in any given situation.

Unfortunatly if you have a bren squad in the Roo with a piat squad, the piats and bren will not swap seats that means that a good half the time you need to spend rotating the roo's facing so that the piats will fire or sometimes the brens take all the seats but one leaving only a single piat firing.

overloaded roos suck actually

At that point, couldn't you let the PIAT squad out to shoot and then just remount when you have too?

Yeah but the time too stop would allow a KT's turret to catch up and fire, unless you go behind a building to do so in which case the KT can fall back to whatever help it needs.

(or just drop the button, seeing as how its not nearly as useful as the complainers say)

sorry but lets put it this way if KT + PAK > ROO + PIAT + BREN
                                          THEN ROO =/=OP

It's not like it can shoot anyway since its buttoned...drive around its ass, drop them off.

Not true at all, since the brens won't be doing any actual firing whatsoever, and the PIAT's 105 priority to fire against tiger armour means they will always pop their heads out to shoot at the thing.


So, you're saying that 1300 MP 120 MU 680 FU 22 pop > 735 MP 210 MU 150 FU 15 pop equals the roo not being OP?
I'm somewhat at a loss of words here, considering that the roo would not be guaranteed defeat versus that combination.