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Title: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Tymathee on August 24, 2010, 11:12:22 am http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarN9IPvwLg
Great story and those things were amazing. the 4.3 inch rocket had the power of a 105 Artillery Shell, lets you know that the Calliope in COH is vastly underpowered believe it or not. I also thought that it had to be all fired at once but the real calliope you could fire 1 rocket or all 60 over a minute (i guess 1 rocket a second) Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: brn4meplz on August 24, 2010, 11:31:47 am A group of Heavy guns still has the sustainable presence of firepower. Once your empty on the Calliope you've gott load up again and then barrage again. Gives the enemy quite the pause
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 24, 2010, 11:34:04 am Underpowered compared to realism, like EVERY VEHICLE and GUN in COH! Tell me it ain't so! =)
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 24, 2010, 11:46:07 am http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iarN9IPvwLg Great story and those things were amazing. the 4.3 inch rocket had the power of a 105 Artillery Shell, lets you know that the Calliope in COH is vastly underpowered believe it or not. I also thought that it had to be all fired at once but the real calliope you could fire 1 rocket or all 60 over a minute (i guess 1 rocket a second) And a 25 pdr and howie could keep firing as long as it had shells if they kept a steady but not over fast pace Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Tymathee on August 24, 2010, 01:58:40 pm Underpowered compared to realism, like EVERY VEHICLE and GUN in COH! Tell me it ain't so! =) Yeah I know but the callie is vastly underpowered at only 30 damage per rocket hit when the 105 howitzer, which is what the equiv of the 4.3 rocket is supposed to do does over 5 times that much. but yeah...panthers and tigers should be taking out most allied tanks in one shot yeah yeah i knwo heck, the pak is OVER powered, no way a 50mm shell could penetrate sherman armor the way it does. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: brn4meplz on August 24, 2010, 03:38:01 pm You'd have to sacrifice some HE for propellant so you wouldn't achieve the exact same results. But close. It's a better solution then trying to have your Artillery keep pace with Tanks though thats for sure
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 24, 2010, 03:48:50 pm Actually, outside of extreme range the PaK 38 could generate about a very high penetration rate, about 60% at 1500m. Now, realistically, the PaK 38 was out of main use by 1943, being replaced by the far more common PaK 40, which could penetrate almost any allied tank at any range.
Also, ATG's on all sides could basically 1 shot a tank. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 24, 2010, 03:53:14 pm Actually, outside of extreme range the PaK 38 could generate about a very high penetration rate, about 60% at 1500m. Now, realistically, the PaK 38 was out of main use by 1943, being replaced by the far more common PaK 40, which could penetrate almost any allied tank at any range. Also, ATG's on all sides could basically 1 shot a tank. also ATG's were very easy to cammo especially against tanks Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 24, 2010, 03:55:04 pm Yeap, and STuG's were fantastic, because its basically a PaK 40 in a well armored, low, maneuverable chassis.
Also, M10's took 2 minutes to rotate their turret 360 because it was hand cranked. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Demon767 on August 24, 2010, 04:01:11 pm lol wow ww2 sounds boring when you guys explain statistics :-\
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Demon767 on August 24, 2010, 04:08:37 pm i cant even view the video
oh and never believe anything on the american history channel. complete and utter load of bullshit. Half the facts they present are horribly wrong Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 24, 2010, 04:13:35 pm i cant even view the video oh and never believe anything on the american history channel. complete and utter load of bullshit. Half the facts they present are horribly wrong Canadian History Channel is pretty good usually, but the best place to get facts is usually from actually books But as i say, if its a vet talking STFU and listen Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Demon767 on August 24, 2010, 04:15:48 pm The only place is doing your own in depth research and analysing sources and information.
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 24, 2010, 04:18:50 pm yep, but on the rating system anything written by or said by a vet is first hand (which is the most reliable) something written down by someone listening to a vet is accordingly second hand and not as reliable as sometimes flavoured by the writer. And anything after that is usually not at all reliable (usually the internet falls under that category) Although this video would normally fall under this category, i didn't see/hear the mans name said which means it can fall under suspicion of standin and thus not that reliable.
(although im pretty sure vid is genuine) Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Demon767 on August 24, 2010, 04:20:27 pm primary source..
secondary source.. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: brn4meplz on August 24, 2010, 04:24:32 pm I'll respect Vets for what they went through.
But you do need to draw the line somewhere. I was on Juno beach 6th June 2006 for their annual thing, and a veteran was speaking. He was an AAA gunner and according to him he was in an LCT for the morning. Said he spent his time shooting German planes out of the sky all morning long. When in fact Luftwaffe records confirm only 2 pilots in the Normandy area for the day 6th june.(and it was a single strafe) So while I respect the man you do need to look at everything said Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: salan on August 24, 2010, 04:33:28 pm lol .. poor guy is probably old enough for the dementia..
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: VERTIGGO on August 24, 2010, 04:39:51 pm Yeah I know but the callie is vastly underpowered at only 30 damage per rocket hit when the 105 howitzer, which is what the equiv of the 4.3 rocket is supposed to do does over 5 times that much. but yeah...panthers and tigers should be taking out most allied tanks in one shot yeah yeah i knwo heck, the pak is OVER powered, no way a 50mm shell could penetrate sherman armor the way it does. Sherman Hull Front (Upper) : 51mm @ 35° - 53° (thickest spot) Penetration Data for the 50mm PaK 38 L / 60 100m: 130mm 500m: 72mm oh and never believe anything on the american history channel. complete and utter load of bullshit. Half the facts they present are horribly wrong +1 But as i say, if its a vet talking STFU and listen I'm a vet, and I saw history re-written all different ways. I also know how easy it would be to exaggerate my own tales. That said I will always have a general respect for the guys who fought WW2. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: acker on August 24, 2010, 07:01:45 pm Penetration Data for the 50mm PaK 38 L / 60 100m: 130mm 500m: 72mm You're looking at the tungsten APCR values, not the normal AP ones. Germany was out of APCR by 1944. http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/german_guns3.html Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: VERTIGGO on August 25, 2010, 01:49:35 am You're looking at the tungsten APCR values, not the normal AP ones. Germany was out of APCR by 1944. http://www.freeweb.hu/gva/weapons/german_guns3.html Fair enough. Good stuff. However, even with the "regular" AP, the sherman would have to remain a kilometer away to avoid 100% penetration... a distance we only dream of in CoH ;) Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 25, 2010, 03:06:14 am Also to note im pretty sure all ATG's also had some HE and shrapnel style rounds if infantry started to close in.
(that wouldn't make sense on the list as that chart was for tank pen, and those rounds wouldn't ever be used against tanks) Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 25, 2010, 10:19:43 am Yes they did have HE, except for the Brits.
Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: brn4meplz on August 25, 2010, 11:53:19 am Who needs HE when you've got HESH
Also the Brits developed APDS rounds which are far superior to any other type of Armour piercing round of the time period Also pretty sure I've got it here somewhere/read elsewhere that the brits do use HE rounds for all types of weapons platforms Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: acker on August 25, 2010, 12:57:12 pm Fair enough. Good stuff. However, even with the "regular" AP, the sherman would have to remain a kilometer away to avoid 100% penetration... a distance we only dream of in CoH ;) Don't forget to account for slope when looking at armor values. The T-34's frontal plate was even thinner than the Sherman's, but had rough armor parity due to a better angle. The "real" armor thickness was around 64-89 millimeters for the upper hull of the 1942, M4A1 version of the Sherman (which was the one with 51mm of frontal hull armor). Which was, for the time, awesome. Later models uparmored, for understandable reasons. Last edit, I swear: judging from the stuff I'm seeing on the lower hull and mantle, the upper hull was the thinnest, not the thickest, part of the Sherman's front. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 25, 2010, 01:59:30 pm 51mm of armor on the front plate, the 64mm-76mm of armor is actually for the front of the turret. All turrets were better armored than the tanks main body....usually. They are also better sloped in the front.
Side, rear, and top armor were a joke though on the Sherman. Either way, the PaK 38 could reliably engage the Sherman, and the PaK 40 made a joke out of it. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 25, 2010, 02:43:41 pm Lol was watching a documentary with a german tank driver speaking, and he said the entire german army knew that shermans kept thier ammo in the turrets of the sherman so they just aimed for it and laughed.
(And when a shell nails another shell in the turret no amount of wet storage will stop that chain reaction) Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: AmPM on August 25, 2010, 02:58:30 pm Who needs HE when you've got HESH Also the Brits developed APDS rounds which are far superior to any other type of Armour piercing round of the time period Also pretty sure I've got it here somewhere/read elsewhere that the brits do use HE rounds for all types of weapons platforms For most of the war they failed to give HE rounds to anything they considered "Anti-tank", so 2pdr, 6pdr, 17pdr, and any tank armed with those weapons. It was fail. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: MittinsKittens on August 25, 2010, 03:01:11 pm Lol was watching a documentary with a german tank driver speaking, and he said the entire german army knew that shermans kept thier ammo in the turrets of the sherman so they just aimed for it and laughed. Link please? I want to see this :oTitle: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Spartan_Marine88 on August 25, 2010, 06:35:50 pm Link please? I want to see this :o Canadian History Channel, one of the Tank shows Brits also called them Zippos by the way they always exploded. But i think my favourite line was when the Driver looks at this Sherman this town has in the center of it (that his crew killed) and he is like "we called there cannons door knockers" then he laughs and makes a knocking shound on the tank hull. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: acker on August 25, 2010, 07:20:32 pm 51mm of armor on the front plate, the 64mm-76mm of armor is actually for the front of the turret. 51mm was sloped anywhere from 35-53 degrees: 64-89 millimeters. The T-34 had, in comparison, a frontal hull armor of 45mm thickness, which was sloped about ten degrees more to compensate. The turret and lower hull values for the Sherman are somewhat complicated, depending on the model and gun. Side armor was crap. Amusingly, it was still ten millimeters thicker than side armor on, say, the Panther I. Not that it mattered, anyhow, all medium tanks were screwed if hit in the side. Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Akranadas on August 26, 2010, 12:55:01 am I see your Calliope and Raise you some Tulips
(http://photos.kitmaker.net/data/500/GB-ShermanRocketProjector.jpg) Quote Tank Use In 1945, some British Shermans were fitted with two rails, one either side of the turret, to carry two 60 lb (27 kg) headed rockets. These were used at the Rhine Crossing by tanks of the 1st Coldstream Guards. The tanks were called "Sherman Tulips". The tanks fitted included both conventional Shermans and the more heavily armed Sherman Fireflies. The rockets were highly inaccurate when fired from a tank as they were being fired from a stationary point and had little slipstream over the fins. Despite this, the RP-3 was valued by tank crews for the destructive effect of its 60 pound warhead Title: Re: The REAL Sherman Calliope Post by: Tymathee on August 26, 2010, 12:56:01 am ooh, me want.
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