COH: Europe In Ruins

I noticed that canceling the setup still not only results in "an inoperable gun", but it also means you immediately lose all of its xp. In effect, as soon as you put it on the field, it has to finish building or it's lost. There's no reason for this, and I'm sure it annoys howitzer players just as much. If you get the truck off the field intact, you haven't lost the veteran crew (which is all it takes to save any unit anyway), you just leave a useless gun on the field.

I request that it be fixed for both.

It's been a knowing issue for a while. Unfortunately we don't have a dedicated SCAR coder. The simple answer to why it hasn't been fixed is because it functions satisfactorily. It's not a perfect system but until more important matters are dealt with systems that work but not perfectly won't be looked at.

A howitzer is something you need to invest defenses in before, during and after construction.

So thats where my vet 3 88 went >_______>

What about building pure 88 without crew, than putting them manually into 88?

Couldn't we have a 3 man crew walk in to build it, if it's somehow just a truck issue?

Obviously it wouldn't have to be able to relocate with brand new health, that's OP ::), but if retreating the crew saves the veterancy, then problem solved...

We've gone over the idea of getting rid of the trucks but some people really like the trucks :p

Meh, i would rather i have truck for 88, not only cause thats the only idea i've seen, but it kinda fits that AT, heavy weapon get transported.

Guess we just have to be careful..

I just showed you other idea, and it's already in use for the British guns ::)

I always try to be careful, the simple fact is, it's completely random whether or not someone spots it and kills it, and just about anything can do just that. You have several minutes where you're most important unit is completely defenseless and dangling in front of the enemy.

Just because it's the way it is doesn't mean it's not the stupidest mechanic in the game.

It's almost the complete opposite of British guns, which gain all of their health back as soon as they build, so all of your bombardment while it's building is now wasted.

i think the truck just needs to be stronger. Jeeps can run back and kill them rather easily, it really shouldn't be.

They should just be immune to small arms. Realistically a jeep doesnt take out a truck building a huge freaking cannon in 10 seconds neither does a bunch of morons with regular rifles

When somebody counters your 88 truck or your howie truck with a unupgraded squad or a bike/jeep, while arguably it is good play, it ends up making the mod look bad

the trucks should at least have vcoh PE HT armour.
for balance they cant be totally immune to small arms fire cuz then you could just build it in combat.

I hate to say it, but realistically 1 jeep would take out a truck with men building  a huge freaking cannon in about 3 seconds. I mean its a freaking 30 cal, each bullet would punch right through the truck

And what about the Brit emplacements, 1 shot from a pak and its over

all those sandbags are very prone to spontaneous leaks.

It's a team game. If I want to put down a Flak 88 or something similar I let my team know. The best way to make sure something deploys without issue is to attack your enemy. It's one of those "I gotta bleed losses now to setup for later" decisions.

Obviously if your best plan is to assume they don;t scout it while it's building then you're simply playing the luck or skill check against your enemies. If you make it so that they either can't scout it or they need to pull forces from across the map to stop a push there is no way they will realize you've set one up - until they drive into it

If skill check is having a unupgraded unit just shooting it, yes

To me its kind of easy to take out a 88 truck, it has to deploy close to mid or in a "good" position anyways to have a impact. Howies are set up more or less safely in the back.

Also this is beside the point. Assuming that more than 3 guys of a entire company was able to "field" the gun, the weapon itself wouldnt be raped by a 30 cal and could continue to be built. You'd need explosives to quickly take it out, or depth knowledge of what parts that are hard to replace to render the rest of the parts useless. Which the regular noob ass rifle doesnt have, imo.

Actually they would have, but this is a level of detail COH was unwilling to go, so rifles can kill a ht. Tbh, a rifle squad would usually have one member with a zook, and at least one with a tommygun, and someone might carry a shotgun (not very widely used during ww2 but some carried it)

err. bundle a couple nades and pop them in the barrel of the FLAK. finished? common sense much?

This is also a question. just wondering if it would of work

Plus i assume the allied commanders would know before hand if there were 88s in the area and would of taught their squad commanders how to take out 88s. which in turn he taught his squad.

works too, so does plugging the end with dirt and firing a shell, misfire will destroy the barrel.

You need more explosive material then is provided in a hand grenade.
hand grenades kill using shrapnel not a pressure wave or anything like that. So while you will fuck up the inside of a barrel(it can still fire just not well) all your really doing is setting off a hand grenade in a tube with one exit the force exerted will be mostly wasted exiting the barrel.

You could use a bandolier of grenades to probably do some severe damage but it'd be hit or miss. You really need a proper explosive compound to do any guaranteed damage. Also grenades are pretty valuable as weapons to be using them on barrels

Plus again the time it  takes a unupgraded squad or a jeep to kill a 88 truck is just too short anyhow, even if demons commander had went over with him 10 times at hq how to take out a 88

I apologise Demon if it seems like I'm singling you out, I'm not, but seriously guys? Are we desperate enough to pull the realism card already?

AFAIK the only reason the flak even builds is that in Relic's infinite wisdom it was concluded that the gun shouldn't move, even though we know real ones had wheels or they'd have been next to useless. Ideally, the gun would move in just like a PaK which is also far too heavy to be pushed around, let alone by two men.

Besides that fact, a realistic 88 battery is not a glass cannon toted around by a chevy s10. I'd like to see Mr. Rifleman try to spike a gun protected by these guys:
(http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/e/e2/Bundesarchiv_Bild_101I-496-3469-24%2C_Flak-Stellung_in_Frankreich.jpg)

At the very least, I'm begging that manually halting the build and driving off the field safely retain the unit's xp just like any other vehicle or squad, as I would continue to try that when I realise it's in danger. It only makes sense.

All im going to say is this, realism in this game isn't there for gameplay reasons.

A single rifle squad would have the capability to take out an 88 (be it usage of satchel charge, they would have at least 1, bazooka, stick of dynamite.) REMOVAL OR BREAKING OF FIRING PIN! (or other key small part).

Seeing as how this is a simplified form of combat, it wouldn't make sense to make rifles impotent against the 88 truck or the 88 itself.

Yes, because it's common sense that the 88 would be utterly destroyed by a grenade, with all of it's killing power being shrapnel, when it sustains all that pure force from when it's actually firing the shells.

Yes, common sense.

lol

+1. Mys just won this thread, I didn't even think about that XD

A common grenade actually has to explode, which sends the shrapnel at high velocity. That explosion that sends the shrapnel out at high speeds wouldn't be limited only to just the part that becomes shrapnel, but the barrel also. The heat created from the small but powerful blast, plus the impact of high velocity metal shards would have a decent chance of gouging, denting and warping a barrel.

Common shell propelant has to explode, which sends the shell at high velocity. That explosion that sends the shell out of the barrel at high speeds wouldn't be limited to just pushing the shell, but to affecting the barrel and firing mechanism also. The heat created from the huge and powerful blast, plus the pressure of super-heated gas should have a decent chance of gouging, denting and warping a barrel and firing mechanism.

Of course, point is a group of rifles could destroy the 88

I think you missed my point, Spartan - gun barrels are made to withstand explosive forces. A grenade would, at the very most - impair the accuracy or the muzzle velocity of the gun, if even that - most likely the shrapnel would simply hit the sides of the gun barrel and scratch them a bit - while the rest fly out the end of the gun or residue at the bottom of it(which would make them piss easy to clean out).


As for filling the barrel with dirt - what do you think is more likely to give way to the pressure wave - some dirt, or a solid metal barrel? Yeah, I'll go with the dirt being fairly useless in disabling a gun.

fact is 88s are too easy to take out while building

so are bofors, 17 pdrs, mg nests, howitzers and bunkers

no where near as tough to kill when built

they dont represent the same level of investment tbh, plus they can relocate

only 17 pdr can

Gameplay>realism for the 1millionth time.

Yes truck is kinda easy to take out, but its good cause you cant just plop it down anywhere likes its a huge metal cock.

Solution--> give truck a little more health, not too much and for God Almightys sake no more armor. Boom, thread is done. Youre welcome.

I can get on board with that

Nice one Myst! You just owned these noobs. At any rate I have to say it's not all about realism, it's about EIRR. In EIRR do riflemen throw grenades down a Tiger's barrel? I think not. I think gren's just exaggerating to show how silly it all is. What really matters, is that it is not only too expensive to be gibbed by a jeep, but it's essentially the kingpin of most defensive companies... they're built around it.

I think the best idea is that the crew walk on and build it. Think about it. Howitzers and FlaKs are both crewed weapons, which means the instant they are built, they can be retreated off the map. They should be able to do that at any point in their lifespan, just like every single other crewed weapon. Tanks can be driven off the map so as to save veterancy, so if it must be a truck, it should be able to drive off to save vet just the same. If the truck option, then it does need some more health, because it's just a completely imbalanced investment/survivability ratio at the moment.

Either way, the defensive player saves his prize unit, and the opponents have the reward that they have driven it from the field. Having the thing completely vulnerable and weak for an arbitrary moment during the battle is merely catering to griefing, which may be entertaining for one side, but is definitely not an important or beneficial part of EIRR.

Just one point about frag grenades, its killing power is actually usually in the explosive blast created by the grenade going off. Frag was originally designed not to kill but to maim.

the entire theory is summed up by this

1 man dead is 1 man dead
1 man horribly wounded is multiple men out, the casualty the doctor(s), multiple nurses also medical supplies spent.

The main point is a grenade about say 5 centimeters in length detonating in a 8.8 centimeter barrel does not really leave alot of room for the explosion to expand causing possible damage (i am not saying its gaurenteed, but possible) Personally i would ratherstack as much of the 88's ammo around the base of the cannon as i had time too, drop a grenade or other explosive in the middle and run like hell

unless you all believe that frags are spring loaded

Back on topic, the 88 truck being destroyed in my opinion shouldn't kill the unit just deny it for the rest of the battle

A fragmentation grenade kills through Fragmentation not blast.

Shells and bombs kill through blast. you can be a mere few feet froma  fragmentation grenade and be alive on the merit that you got lucky enough to avoid fragmentation.

Also the standard Mk II pineapple grenade is roughly 60mm across leaving you 28mm of room for the spoon to eject.(not enough) You could remove the spoon prior to dropping it down the barrel but the grenade won't go far. Again your expending blast force out the end of a barrel. a small blast is only made less effective if it isn't contained.

Also if i could guarantee that the fragmentation would not kill me I'd stack shells and set off a frag near them. I don't think anything would happen. un-primed shells can only cook off due to excessive heat exposure or pressure(a blast). unless someone knows what their doing with the shells thats not a very good solution.

Back on topic the general strength of these weapons in EiRR is counter balanced by their fragility when setting them up

Which is what frag(mentation) does - small shards of metal boar into the body of it's victims, maiming them and incapacitating them - with death only happening if the shard punctures a lung, a kidney, the heart or goes through the eye into the brain.

The explosion would just go right out the barrel, achieving more or less so no damage at all. Much like the explosion of an 88s propellant charge.

A US handgrenade has a 4-6 second fuse, and if you count that out in your head, it's really quite a long time. A grenade could easily roll down 4.5m of barrel in that time. I would expect some nasty scrapes in the rifling, but it would probably still fire unless the blast damaged the firing pin. Really not a reliable method, but if I was in the shoes of a rifleman at the time, I would have damn well tried.

if I were in the shoes of a rifleman on those times, I'd give a damn of that 88, smash its optic with my rifle butt. Then I'd ask a help from a fellow rifleman, lift up a 88 shell and load the gun and then drop a grenade in to watch what might happen. It might work best with a HE shell kek kek, can't be that hard to open the lock, I mean your intention is to break it anyway so it doesn't matter if you fail couple of times to open the lock

Smashing the optics is probably more than enough.