COH: Europe In Ruins

The Hotchkiss, specificly the 50mm version, is UP in comparison to other AT light vehicles.

It costs 310 mp, 70 fuel and takes up 8 pop.

It is a dedicated anti vehicle unit, so its closest points of comparison are probably the stuart ( in its EIR iteration) and the Puma Upgun.

The stuart is 280mp, 80 fuel and also takes 8 pop. So its very slightly cheaper. There are a few more differences to consider, in a direct comparison not to mention the huge variety of infactional differences and doctrine buffs available.

For reference the wher upgunned puma is 280 mp and 70 fuel.

The stuarts gun has the same accuracy, a longer reload and very slightly less damage, however it also has a 50% damage modifer against a lot of lightly armoured PE targets ( the main targers for these sort of vehicles). So considering this, the units are probably fairly balanced in comparison with eachother, the short comings of the stuart in comparison to the hotchkiss counteracted by the 50% damage modifer, a not insignificant number.

However the stuart has 1 thing the Hotchkiss does not have, m8 armour. What does this mean? it means it can dodge bullets, it gets hit a lot less than other vehicles due to the significant incoming accuracy modifier present. The puma and the m8 also have this, as does the PE armoured car, and the tetrach, the only light vehicles in the game that do not have "dodge" are the Hotchkiss and the staghound. The stag hound has a staggering amount of firepower on a small and nimble platform and significantly more HP than the hotchkiss ( cant find the numbers in corsix, assisstence appreciated.)

In vcoh the stuart does not "dodge", however it was added in EIR to make the stuart a more useful unit. I think this should also be done to the PE upgunned Hotchkiss.

*needs coroboration with corsix, cant find actual info atm*- keep in mind the hotchkiss is slower than the other light vehicles to begin with and that a large part of these units power comes from their mobility. 


thoughts?

(Gonna look up the Corsix stuff in a bit)

But yeah, the Hotch is pretty pathetic. It's got Stuart armor, light vehicle crits and low HP, making it a near useless PoS. The 50mm has a nice DPS, but since it's penetration was reduced, it's become even more of a joke. Some people bitch about it being super-OP, but not once have I seen anything of the sort. Giving it some sort of moving dodge bonuses would be nice, just like any other armored car.

I'd also like to point out that the 50mm used by the Puma is more accurate against infantry. I cba to look in the RGDs right now, but the Stuart probably is too.

However, there are some things that you didn't mention that are in the Hotchkiss' favour. The Hotchkiss has significantly better penetration which makes it better at engaging tanks, and the Hotchkiss has a 5 range advantage. Not to mention the Stuart doesn't get the damage modifier against actual tanks afaik (again, cba to look it up). The Stuart is more suited to fighting light vehicles while the Hotchkiss is more suited to fighting heavier vehicles. I think that adding M8 dodge to the Hotchkiss might make it too powerful.

The upgunned hotchkiss used to have a role in the PE arsenal, pershing hunter. It was the steve erwin of heavy tank hunting, but penetration values that allowed it to rape pershings have been reduced ( rightly so), however this unit is now rather weak imo, esp in comparison to the other factions light vehicles.


Just looked it up, you are correct.

The hotchkiss has +5 range over the puma and stuart. This would make the unit more suited for kiting. In regards to penetration I dont think you are correct, with the upgunned hotchkiss having very similar penetration values to that of the stuart. The stuart gets a 50% damage bonus vs the Marder and PE halftrack armour. (1/3 of units available to PE, and the basis of almost all their anti tank).

its has the worst accuracy against infantry than all the anti tank light vehicles, the wher puma having rather off values vs solider armour iirc.

I dont really see how putting the units survivability on par with the puma, m8, stuart, or t17 could really make it too powerful, sure these units are a pain and hard to deal with... but people see t17's and they scrable their infantry into cover and start desperatly searching for a mobile at source to deal with it... hotchkiss should invoke a similar reaction for tanks imo.


Hotchkiss also have 300 hp iirc ( dont know where to find in corsix), which is less than any of the other light vehicles I think. To put that in perspective an m10 that does 112 damage will 3 shot a hotchkiss without fail, and will probably not miss either since hotch has no dodge and the units are the same speed ( again dont know where to find values in corsix).
BTW the reason im discussing the upgunned hotchkiss and not all hotchkiss is that I havent had a chance to try the regular hotchkiss at 6 pop, significantly less than the other light vehicles so it might actually be OK.


Is there a reason why the hotch does not recieve the dodge that most of the other light vehicles get?

I'd love if somebody could provide actual values because I am far too lazy right now, but the 50mm Puma doesn't compare with the 50mm Hotchkiss in penetration, and I'm sure the Stuart is the same way.

                            Short range             Medium Range             Long Range


Upgunned Hotch            100%                   100%                         90%

Upgunned Puma            100%                     90%                          80%

Stuart                         100%                     90%                          80%


These are the figures from "penetration" under each units weapon entry, however i get the feeling they paint a too simplistic picture of ingame mechanics, since I know the penetration differers depending on the target as well.  Take with a grain of salt.


Arteka's while I udnerstand you think the dodge would be too much for the upgunned hotch, do you think the hotch is ok as it is? if not what other suggestions would you have for fixing it? pop/price reduction perhaps?

Those are basically irrelevant, target table modifiers are far more important. For the most relevant comparison it's a good idea to look at the Stuart's penetration against P4s and Tigers and compare it with the Hotchkiss' penetration against Shermans and Pershings. It's not the most perfect comparisons but it works and gives you a good idea of how good the penetration is.

I think that the 50mm Hotchkiss is balanced against other light vehicles fine right now. The only thing I would like to see changed is the pop reduced to 7, however if this were to happen I would also like to see the Stuart and 50mm Puma pop reduced to 7 as well. I feel that 8 is too much for what they do, when an M10 is just 10 pop while having a much better cannon, 45 range, better speed, and similar performance against infantry. The prices are fine in relation to this but the pop values are a bit skewed.

I dont know how to do that, sum1 help :D.

Also im surprised you would advocate going after tanks with the upgunned hotchkiss, its 75 damage is very low to be trying to combat a tank with, its 300 hp doesnt help either, meaning most tanks kill it in 3 and cripple it in 2 hits.

So try to help me understand your POV, because the hotch is better against tanks than the other light at vehivles it doesnt need dodge and is fine?

It has +5 more range than most tanks and it's faster.... remember?

P4s/Shermans do 87 damage per shot so what's wrong with a light vehicle doing 75?

Damage alone is irrelevant, accuracy, penetration, and rate of fire are all also quite important. In this case it is the Hotchkiss' great rate of fire and penetration that makes it viable for fighting tanks, combined with the 45 range. They will not singlehandedly take down a medium tank, no, but for their cost they do a great job.

Under the weapons table look for target table modifiers somewhere, open that and look for the armour types (p4, sherman, etc) click on them and it'll show you the various modifiers against them, including penetration modifier.

And yes, because the cost is basically the same as other LV, while it has much better performance against tanks even though it's not as fast, I think that it is fine.

I assume your implying that the proper way to use the unit is the kite enemy armour in an attept to nickle and dime it to death from the safty of +5 range away? I guess it could work, difficult due to having less sight than range but with proper support it is possible. I will give it a try in my next game, but I dont see it being very feasible due to the low damage and very low room for error thhe hotch provides. Would seem to require a disproptionate amount of skill to use properly in comparison to other light armour.
Where in comparison ive seen people with t17's driving infront of tanks/ at guns and dodge left right and centre.

Just saying.


also a less point but one I did mean to mention is that it lacks options compared to the allied light vehicles, the m8 has access to amazing mines, the stuart has a commander ugrade for increased LOS. The commander upgrade would be a great boon for the upgunned hotch, allowing it to actually use its range advantage.
I dunno...maybe your right, I guess it just annoys me slightly that its about the same MP cost as an m10, 2 less pop and so much worse. In every way. guess thats whay you save 110 fuel...

What if the unit price was increased as well as the unit being improved somewhat... I just struggle to see it as an 8 pop ( a fairly large amount) anti tank support peice.

HELLO!?

There used to support Marders and 50mms. the 360turret counters circle strafing mainly from the usually culprits Stags and T17s. BLOCK THE LV than your marder blows the shit out of them. although i do want to see a mp reduction.

Trying to kite an enemy to death is not likely to work, they are not afraid of charging after you and the 5 range is a rather small margin. Still, it is an advantage that you can use to get an extra shot off here and there without them being able to retaliate. You need something like an M10, where they are afraid of committing to a charge, for 45 range to be enough to kite something to death. You will want to try and abuse the 5 range as much as possible but it's extremely unlikely that you will manage to actually take down a Sherman with just one  Hotchkiss and no other supplemental AT by kiting.

I'm against the idea of buffing it and increasing the cost too, again I think the only change that should be made is reducing these three vehicles to 7 pop. I wouldn't be against a 30 MP reduction, but I don't think it's necessary or will make a difference either.

in that case im going to say 8 pop is far too much for a AT supplement, when an m10 is 10 pop and is a brilliant standalone At peice. This in a faction who's version of the ATG, the marder, is 50% more pop than everyone elses atg ( I know it can move, but its still the role it plays overall)

All the other lightarmour has a specific role it fulfills very well, the hotchkiss does not imol.

The stuart is a brilliant tool against PE light armour, 3 shotting most of it in a rather disgusting fashion. The Upgunned puma seems to exsist mostly to deter m8's and t17's, since those two units dont kill it too fast and it doesnt kill them quickly either, they tend to jsut scare eachother away.  A necessary role for axis considering how devestating those two units are to axis infantry.

The upgunned hotchkiss can support axis tanks in engagements against allied ones, however due it having the lowest health of the light vehicles, getitng hit more and being 8 pop ( not far off just getting another bloody tank on field for that) I dont think it fulfills its role.

While not the most accurate measure of how many are being used, looking at the leaderboards does give a rough indication of how many upgunned hotchkiss's are currently being used.

There are 13 stuarts, 29 greyhounds, 7 upgunned hotchkiss. ( actually more than i expected tbh, since I havent seen anyone else use them in game since I got back into EIR).

The Hotchkiss, if anything, has a more specific role than the 50mm Puma, which is less effective against armour and vehicles and more effective against infantry, making it more general purpose.

Ok I see your point, I think I didnt express myself clearly. You can look at the upgunned puma and look at a situation and say, Yes, this is the unit to deal with this problem. It could be unsupported capping infantry, it could be other light vehcles. What situation do people pull upgunned hotchkiss's on for? All I know is I see them VERY rarely, they make the flammen look popular in comparison.

Normaly when a unit isnt used much is their its too hard for most people to use effectly ( is that ok?) or its simply not effective... either of these means the unit is worth looking into imo.

Im honestly surprised...I expected more people to feel this way about the hotchkiss than jsut me. No one? really?

+1 to this

If 50mms are 4 pop and Marders are 6, why is the Hotch Upgun a whopping 8? I think it's priced fairly enough, but it's difficult to call onto the field when you need AT support due to its high pop, and there are much more pop-effective units out there.

I run one of these in my company, to support and supplement my other AT units, and it rarely pays off. If you're supporting a Marder/50mm (like you're supposed to) then your range and speed mean very little. And the fact that the thing is a magnet for all kinds of AT fire means it goes down too quickly, having done too little.

Or, as I said before, as dodge bonus would be nice. It wouldn't give the Hotch super-duper warp fields or anything, but would allow the thing to survive without getting hit 100% of the time.

I see the 50mm Hotchkiss decently often, and used them myself quite a bit when I was still playing PE. You can do exactly the same thing with the Hotchkiss as you say you can with the Puma... okay, I need some extra AT to take down this tank, I will call a Hotchkiss in. I need to deal with this LV, I will call a Hotchkiss in.

The big thing is (about your point on not seeing too many hotchkiss), is that while 50mm Hotchkiss aren't super popular... neither are the Stuart or 50mm Puma. I see the 50mm Puma and Hotchkiss at more or less the same frequency, and I actually see less Stuarts.

In that case perhaps I was wrong? Perhaps its not just the Upgunned hotchkiss with an issue but all of these light anti tank units simply being underwhleming.


Though tbh I see the stuart quite a bit, maybe I notice more cause this issue of light vehciles has been bothering me for a while.

Do you think it would be an issue if these things were reduced to 6 or 7 pop? would be see mobs of them bringing down tanks? ( would that be a problem?)

All of these vehicles are great for their cost, but the fact is that they fill up a niche role (not being very powerful anti-tank, nor being reliable anti-infantry) where the only thing they can seriously kill are light vehicles and help kill tanks, which may discourage people from using them. I don't think this is an issue at all. The other factor that does discourage people from using it, and I think actually is an issue, is their pop.

Is anyone actually against a pop decrease to 7 for the Stuart, 50mm Puma, and 50mm Hotchkiss? I've been pushing a bit for this change since.... as of today, one month ago. Haven't heard any arguments against it.

Yeah upgun sucks. It does decent damage but it gets killed twice as fast and kiting is quite hard with the minimal range advantage and no sight. The regular hotchkiss is quite good for sniping inf though

Thats one of my biggest problems with the hotchkiss, why is it more vulnerable than all the other light vehicles? its that it doesnt just have dodge, its that it doesnt have dodge AND has the lowest health of all the other LV's. It dies in 3 shots from any actual tank...thats just rediculous.

It doesn't have dodge because it has other advantages over LVs, and it has the same HP as both of the comparable LVs.

meh, clearly neither of us are going to change our minds soon, I think its rubbish, you think its decent. When I see one in game and it actually helps its team, ill be convinced. Untill then clearly this is pointless, you think its fine. I think its rubbish. hardly anyone uses it, but whatever, leave it on the trash heap of rarely used units.

Its also a shame how a lot of the allied LV's get really good buffs from their doctrines, which isnt so much the case with axis imo.

one thing that is surprising about the the hotchkiss is that it sometimes will clear out a 30 cal in no time from a building

as pointed out the penetration values of the upgun supports a more KITE and harass type of role vs heavier tanks than anything else

not to mention brilliant ai tank also...


and I saw stuart snipe inf with each shot,sheffer was saying how OP thing was,and nobody would listen to him(he uses them)...

same  with   the  57mm crew.

Ok so my oringal idea wasnt well liked, fair enough. How about giving it the same ability as the AC, overcharged engines or whatever its called. This would allow it to get into position and flank easily, without giving it plasma shield dodge. At the moment one of this units biggest problems is ATG's, while other light vehicles have significantly less to fear, hotchkiss die in 2 hits from a 57 and has no chance to dodge. Overcharged engines would let it get through the field of fire or around the field of fire alive.

It would be a small buff to a mediocre unit, making it much more viable imo. If the stag can have canister rounds, I certainly see no problem with this.

As for all the light at vehicles In general I support a reduction from 8 to 7 Pop, since they often only become effective in groups, or in tandem with other AT sources.

Hotch is so weak already, why make it even more bad.. =/

no one in this thread has suggesed making it worse...

i am

why? and in what way?

Its kinda bad I played like 2-3 games with all three variants only the stuka felt useful, and with the nerf to the upgun it wasnt doing too well against the pershing.

so how would you suggest fixing it then? one of the idea's already suggested? or something else?

They are cheap?

personally i think they're fine. they're like light vehicles that can take on tanks, they're annoying, fast and hard to hit. If you really micro them they're a pain in the butt. just treat 'em like small  m-10s

how are they hard to hit,lol,when everything hits them?

seconded

Enough with the trolling guys, either put something useful in your post or dont post please. Im trying to keep this constructive.

Smokaz I dont get what you mean by your last post, are you asking if they are cheap or just saying they are cheap.

TYM part of what I was trying to say before is that you can use them like an m10, they are even more fragile than an m10, and do less damage, and they cant crush.

Even more fragile than an m10...kinda squishy no?

They are cheap

Smokaz is right that upgun Hotchkiss is cheap, fuel-wise anyway. Comparing to M10, being AT chase units, well, judge by yourself based on the stats. M10 doesn't penetrate heavy tanks frontally either.

Personally, I think the 100 less HP on the hotchkiss, plus the prevalence of manpacked AT, makes it harder to use than the M10. But like the M10, if the Hotchkiss can avoid manpacked AT, it should rape vehicles as fast as the M10 does.

M10
HP:400
Speed: 6.8
Acceleration: 1.7
Damage: 112.5 per 4.2 seconds (28 DPS)
Cost: 300/0/190
Pop: 10

Upgun Hotchkiss
HP:300
Speed: 6.5
Acceleration: 4.0
Damage: 75 per 2.8 seconds (27 DPS)
Cost: 310/0/70
Pop: 8

looks fine to me, especially since 2 pop makes a HUGE difference

give them smoke. done. useful unit now, not op, doesnt break shit. wow. youre welcome

make it come from glider like tetrach if you are luft!?

no, make it airdroppable like 57mm

edit: no, 57mm is too epic to compare with hotchkiss. make hotchkiss come down like butterfly bombs maybe they become useful then.

how fast is the puma/m8?

Should at least be 7pop imo. Considering allies have a lot more effective manpack too saying avoid is easier said than done, esp with no dodge bonus's :s. Its not really fair to compare shrecks to RR's and Boys at rifles since shrecks at long range means the m10 might as well have a dodge bonus, where as RR's/ boys at will hit at long range no problem.

The mp should also be moved into line with the other lights, more like 280-290 than 310.

he should spinn in circles while dropping down,lol

All ToV units are fucked up. Relic made them like that for a reason, to remove balance from vcoh forever in exchange for money.

not only fucked,but ugly too...atleast hotch is...

Puma is 7 speed, M8 and T17 are 6.4 speed. We don't need any silly solutions like giving them new abilities. The only thing that needs changing is the pop of all AV LVs. Stop looking at just buffing the Hotchkiss and not the other AV LVs. Yes, the Hotchkiss does not have dodge. But the other AV LVs don't have great penetration, good range, or great rate of fire. It evens out. If you give the Hotch dodge bonuses - look at how fucking overpowered that would be. It would then be superior to the Stuart and 50mm Puma in every way that matters, while it would only be costing 30 more manpower. If you give the Hotchkiss any kind of huge buff, like dodge or a new ability, it throws it completely out of balance with the other AV LVs.

I'd like to remind you that these things are really cheap, they shouldn't be godlike tankhunters. They are very cost effective.

Yep, they way better than up-gunned pumas.

Ok ive got videos this time.

The first 1 shows how insanely unforgiving these units are, esp compared to armour that dodges stuff, leaves you with very little room for error.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b7b/


This second one displays how as a "light vehcile" it is not even capable of escaping from an allied heavy tank, a feat I can say with complete confidence any of the allied light armour could have achieved.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b83/

Excuse the poor quality of this one. For those that cant see the m10 had about 1/3 hp left, full health hotchkiss comes out to chase it down. All except 1 shot were at rear, hotchkiss still dies, though it did kill the m10. Cost effective? considering m10 had 1/3...hell no, upgunned puma would have done a much better job.

http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b98/

You charge into an ATG with either Tank Reapers or AP rounds with your LV and it died? What a surprise!

Second instance was shitty micro that was entirely your own fault, and has nothing to do with the Hotchkiss whatsoever.

Didn't bother to watch the third but... no, a Puma would not likely have performed better, considering it does less damage and fires slower.

PS you also didn't address my point at all, just tried to prove it was underpowered by videos that show off certain situations. I could have taken a video of my match where my 4 man assault grenadier squad was killed by 5 shots from an ATG at medium range in cover and used it to say "OMG ATG IS OVERPOWERED NERF INF ACCURACY TO 0%", but honestly that doesn't prove anything.

wow aint you sweet, you seem to think very highly of yourself, but please try to be nice. That atg did not have tank reapers, I checked fyi. But yea, nice call. I couldnt see it untill I was already around the corner, all I was saying that compared to all the other LV in the game, none of them would have died to that. The only other one without dodge takes 4-5 pak hits to kill, the staghound.


Pray tell what was wrong with my micro in the 2nd video? pershing was keeping up with the hotch. Im sure you can tell me how to micro properly, since your so good at using hotch's yourself.

If your going to respond to balance threads, please do so properly and have the good grace to actualy examine other peoples posts properly before responding.

Thanks.


Are you accusing me of playing loads of games and looking for freak instances of unlikley events where hotchkiss die, with no balance relevence?
Cause this was my first game today, comparing my video's to an ATG landing 4 shots on infantry in medium cover in a row, which has less than a 1.3% chance of happening is insulting.

As for your point about it being cost effective? watch the last video, thats what its for.


Furthermore your hyperbole is uncalled for, im trying to stay away from drastic balance suggestions, when you pointed out dodge would be too good I suggested alternative fixes, no need for you to get so aggresive.


Be honest, nothing I could say, do or show you would convince you at this point would it?

Okay I forgot that the 57mm does 150 damage base, my mistake there. Nonetheless, you are still at fault. You charged forward into the fog of war with a vehicle, it really does not matter what vehicle it is but it always ends badly because it's a stupid idea.

You really can't see what's wrong with your micro in the second video? The Hotchkiss just stopped and started rotating, and then rotated back, allowing the Pershing to close the distance.

I am not accusing you of anything, chill out. I am simply stating that single incidents are completely unrelated to balance and thus showing videos doesn't prove anything.

My point about it being balanced in relation to other AV LVs, which you completely and totally ignored. If you do something big like a new ability for it it completely tips the scale and overpowers the Hotchkiss. The ONLY THING the other LVs have over the Hotchkiss is their dodge bonus (and the puma is a bit faster), they're about the same at anti-infantry (one is more accurate but slower firing) and the Hotchkiss is superior at anti-vehicle compared with a Puma.

I'm not really being aggressive, you just seem to have a persecution complex. I didn't accuse you of anything, and I'm just sitting here debating things. I never insulted you or attacked you in any way. Meanwhile you're doing things like implying that I am not responding properly ("If your going to respond to balance threads, please do so properly").

A good argument that shows why Hotchkiss are bad in relation to Stuarts and 50mm Pumas would be a good way to convince me. Ignoring my arguments and posting single incidents will never convince me.

That last bit was mostly because you didnt bother to watch my video.  Upgunned hotchkiss cant kill infantry for shit, its about as effective as a firefly vs infantry.

I never said that the Hotchkiss was good at killing infantry, simply that it was about the same effective as a 50mm Puma, which is also not that good at killing infantry. However, neither of them are anywhere near as bad as a Firefly at killing infantry. The Firefly has .2 accuracy against infantry and a further .5 accuracy if they're moving, plus it fires much slower, if it's at close range it will fire about one shot for every three shots by the Hotchkiss and if it's at long range it will fire about one shot for every 2ish shots the Hotchkiss fires.

By the way, I didn't mean to offend you by not watching that last video. I assumed your point was that a 50mm Puma would have performed better in that situation and I could safely say it wasn't just from the description, I didn't realise you were also making a point about cost effectiveness. I watched the video just now and it looks like you just had some bad luck.

Your correct, I was wrong about the upgunned hotch having the same accuracy as the firefly vs basic infantry, its 0.15 and also have a 0.5 moving accuracy bonus. Its worse than the firefly. Though the reason it gets more inf kills is as you stated correctly probably due to its high rate of fire.

Im going to keep playing with my hotchkiss, they are fun. But I dont believe that they are currently balanced, im not sure what needs to be changed, but something needs to be done imo.

Is your information coming from the RGDs? 50mm Hotchkiss should have .35 accuracy against infantry with no further reduction against moving infantry, I remember this from vcoh stats and I have never heard any mention of it being changed in EiRR. If it was changed, that's honestly quite retarded and it should be reverted. Although it would still be better than the Firefly against infantry, as the significantly better fire rate makes up for .15 accuracy instead of .20. Not to mention, the splash is three times as big.

yea I think its correct man, the 0.5 is the hotch's moving acc, not vs moving infantry. I think you might be looking at the regular hotchkiss, which has much better accuracy vs infantry. I cant find the hotch's accuracy vs moving infatry >.<, blind.


Cant believe It just hit me, maybe I should be comparing this to the tetrach? arnt they supposed to be pretty much mirrored?

I finally stopped being lazy and checked the RGDs... the 50mm Hotchkiss does have .35 accuracy against infantry, although for some really weird reason it was nerfed to have a further .25 accuracy against moving infantry. I think that should be reverted.

I wasn't aware of any changes made to the 50mm Hotchkiss. It has always been like that, even in vcoh.

Oh, you're right. For some reason I remembered it having 1 accuracy against moving infantry but I just checked coh stats and it's 0.25 accuracy against moving infantry. Herp derp derp, nevermind then.

um....ok....clearly im looking at the wrong thing :s, sorry for that... OK now im starting to doubt my numbers from before lol >.<.

0.25% s moving accuracy compounded by 0.35 acuracy is pretty...bad lol. 0.0875...lol.

Not really, overall it has 8% accuracy against moving infantry while the Firefly has 10% accuracy against moving infantry. Given the fire rate and splash, the Hotchkiss is still better against infantry.

This last video totally shows why rgds sometimes simply dont make sense at all. this unit is fail.
I suggest to at least give it an extra 50 hp just for tryout. that way it can still fight after 2 atg hits.

aight fair point, but what I was trying to say really was that its sucks, huge monkey balls vs infantry, to the point where your wating your time. It cant even chase off a lone rifle squad caping by itself properly. Its a dedicated anti tank light vehicle, but it doesnt have the hp or the damage to play any proper role in a tank battle.

I wouldn't mind a change that put it more on par with other AV LVs in anti-infantry fire power. Nonetheless, it still wouldn't be that good at killing infantry, so it'd be primarily for fighting vehicles just like the puma and stuart.

I had mine come for upgun sherman with only 1/4 or less helath,he did kill sherman,but he did die in process also... ::)

The problem is, as I have said before, is that the Hotchkiss lacks any sort of dodge or evasion, which would actually allow it to preform it's job. The Upgun Hotch has two jobs:
1) Support other AT weapons, and tack on damage to enemy armor throughout an engagement.
2) Chase down and kill enemy armor with >25% health.

Now here's the problem:
1) If the Hotch sticks around in any engagement too long (which it has to in order to do its job), it will die. A single ATG shot or two Zooks/RRs will take half your health, and you're forced off to repair, often before you even get a shot in. Even if you engage the enemy at max range, the Hotch is a bullet magnet that will usually get taken out before it can even make its cost back (or be useful in any way at all). Unlike the 50mm Puma (which gets dodge bonuses) or the Staghound (which has much better health and armor).
2) Again, the fact that the Hotchkiss is a bullet magnet comes into play here, but the Hotch's lack of received-moving-accuracy is even more apparent. You'd think that while both vehicles are moving at max range the Hotch would be able to dodge a few shots, but the video 11on2d6 posted earlier (http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b98/) is actually the norm: while the Hotch plinks away and generally doesn't accomplish much, it gets two- or three-shot by just about everything. Also look at the video of the Pershing chasing the Hotch (http://www.xfire.com/video/3d3b83/) again; while both vehicles are moving at max range, the Pershing hits 100% of the time with four shots, while the Hotch misses and bounces shots.

Unfortunately, the 50mm Hotch can't even engage enemy infantry and light vehicles like the 50mm Puma, Stag, M8, T17 and even Stuart can. Infantry because of its terrible accuracy, and LVs because of its poor accuracy, lack of dodge and poor health.
The Hotch needs a slight buff to its HP and dodge plain and simple.

The problem is that what he posted wasn't just a strange coincidence, it's a regular occurrence with the Hotch. If you'd play with the Hotch a bit (a perspective from both sides of the issue is necessary in a discussion like this), then you'd agree with this wholeheartedly.
We've given the arguments, presented the facts and even posted videos to exemplify the point. What else do you need to be convinced?
If the Hotch doesn't blow, then I'm sure you can come up with dozens of videos of it owning.

I'm not going to go and start playing PE again just to come up with dozens of videos for you, sorry. If that's what it'll take to convince you I guess you won't be convinced.

Here's a comprehensive list of pros and cons to the Hotchkiss compared with the 50mm Puma.

Pros
Much better penetration (generally over two times better)
Twice the rate of fire (3 second reload instead of 6 second reload)
More range (45 instead of 40)
Slightly more damage (75 instead of 67.5, one less shot to kill everything)
Slightly less penetration drop (0.9x long 1x med instead of 0.8x long 0.9x med)
Slightly better armour (doesn't get hurt by .30 cal AP lawl)
Slightly more deceleration (5 instead of 4.5)

Cons
No dodge bonus (1x received moving accuracy instead of 0.8x/0.75x)
Less accurate against infantry (0.35x instead of 0.5x)
Less accurate against moving infantry (0.25x instead of 1x)
Costs slightly more MP (310 instead of 280)
Slightly less HP (300 instead of 310, no difference in anything)
Slightly less speed (6.5 instead of 7)
Slightly less acceleration (4 instead of 4.5)

If it's not listed above, the values are the same. Let me know if I missed anything, but I don't think I did. I bolded the differences that I think matter. If you disagree with me, please feel free to explain why. Basically, the only things the Puma can do better is kill infantry and dodge, the former of which it still is not good at because it has 25% accuracy in normal situations, with a 6 second reload. It will hit and kill one rifleman every 24 seconds, on average, not counting the splash from misses which is the same for the Hotchkiss. The dodge is overrated... it will still be hit 75% of the time that the Hotchkiss would, and given that they both die to two ATG shots, there stands a fair chance of the dodge never coming into play, statistically speaking. If you give dodge to the Hotchkiss, the only thing the Puma can do better is kill a rifleman every 24 seconds where the Hotchkiss wouldn't, and be oh so slightly faster. Does this sound balanced to you?

Just counting rate of fire, the gun for the Hotchkiss is already twice as good against vehicles. Against Sherman armour and better, a bit more than four times as good. Not even counting the range and damage. This is a HUGE improvement to the gun, and let's say it had dodge... the Puma would be obsolete, because such an amazing gun is not made up for being able to kind of kill infantry. I consider it evenly matched as is, because a gun that's at least twice as effective in intended situations (killing vehicles) and even better in others is well worth the fact that the Puma will dodge every one in four shots against something that takes two to kill it.

Edit: I reread this post and I want to make sure I don't come off the wrong way. I'm not saying that the dodge is useless at all. I just think its effect on survivability is overstated. While it's certainly useful I don't think it's outright better than having a gun that's minimum 2x better against the intended targets. Considering this is the MAIN difference between the 50mm Puma and 50mm Hotchkiss, giving it to the 50mm Hotchkiss would just be way too much, and I think that the 50mm Hotchkiss' main unique factor does even out with the 50mm Puma's main unique factor, making it balanced in relation to each other.

I just saw a Hotchkiss lose to a t17..
Bottom line is: It's useless!

It is >:(

I just saw a Hotchkiss solo a Pershing
Bottom line is: It's overpowered!

herpderp

+1 saw it aswell

Ya, it's 5:30Am here and I must be heading off, but tomorrow I'll post the vid.

I'll post more tomorrow, but real quick at Artekas: the extra range and slight extra damage honestly mean dick all on the Hotch despite what you may think (and those benefits literally don't exist on the 37mm Hotch), and the Puma actually has better armor in some situations. That leaves RoF, penetration and decel.

However, you seem to discount the Puma's advantages more than you should: that 10 extra HP means you can take two 57mm shells or four Bazooka hits and keep going (+ survive to repair). Couple that with a x.75 dodge bonus, and you can effectively take 6.25 Bazooka hits or 3-4 ATG shots, vs 4 and 2, respectively, on the the Hotch.
Speed and acceleration also are a huge advantage, as the less time you spend in an AT unit's range/LoS, the greater your chances of survival. When you get two-shot by just about everything, you need to be able to get the fuck out of dodge real quick. If you played PE, you'd know this.


We're not making shit up just to fuck with you dude, these are regular occurrences with the Hotchkiss. The sooner you understand the fact that anecdotal evidence does having some bearing in these discussions, the sooner people will take you more seriously here. Understanding how things work on-paper is great, but things often play out differently in-game, and it's not all just luck.

+1 if it were to hae dodge it would make it a hard to hit rapid fireing at  weapon thats fast for 80 fuel OP much?

Yes, becuase a little .8 modifier would make them (http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/GermanSteel1944/Internet%20Stuff/Smilies/emot-siren.gif) impossible to hit (http://i812.photobucket.com/albums/zz50/GermanSteel1944/Internet%20Stuff/Smilies/emot-siren.gif)

You guys are honestly putting way too much emphasis on a slight accuracy modifier. Even if you give them the exact same stats as a Puma, the Hotch will still be easier to hit. Why? Because the Puma gets Magic Phase Armor that cause things to miss, even when they shouldn't. (That's another thing you fail to take into account when you only look at RGDs).

No, actually. You've overlooking how the game engine works. You cannot kill anything in this game by reducing it to zero HP. This is why even though deflections do damage, they can't kill things. This is also a part of why the 5% bug exists. When a shot hits and penetrates, it inflicts damage. After it does this damage, it checks for criticals based on how much health was remaining after that hit. If there is 5% or less health left, it uses the red critical table. Now a result from the red critical table is randomly generated; either the unit is killed (there are separate entries on the red critical that can be rolled that will both result in being killed, one normal and one for out of control), the gun is destroyed, or the engine is destroyed. This also explains the 5% bug: it occurs when the same result is rolled multiple times in a row, for example gun destroyed. After the gun is already gone it rolls it again but since the gun is already destroyed, it doesn't have any effect. The Hotchkiss is put into the red criticals at 15 HP remaining, the Puma is put into the red criticals at 15.5 HP remaining. This does not affect anything. If you do the math with the Hotchkiss against various targets, you'll see that anything with more than 300 HP will take one hit less to kill than with a Puma.


They are, but the differences in speed and acceleration are not that big. If it were say, 5.5 speed and 3 acceleration against 7 speed and 4.5 acceleration I'd totally agree with you, but it's not.

I'm interested more than anything about your take on why the range isn't important. I've never seen anyone suggest that range isn't an important thing in Company of Heroes before.

Bits and pieces of anecdotal evidence are irrelevant. Once again, I am going to bring up my favourite piece of anecdotal evidence - an ATG fucking raped my assault grenadiers. Does this mean ATGs are overpowered? No, of course not. Now, you say that this is a regular occurrence unlike my ATG incident - but you don't do anything to prove that. You told me that if it's as good as I say I should be able to easily get dozens of videos of it performing. Well... if it's as bad as you say, you should easily be able to get dozens of videos, right? Fun stuff.

I used the Hotchkiss a lot, and I loved it. It was the only AT as PE I actually liked using, and I basically relied on it. I never saw it being useless, or anywhere near as weak as you guys describe. PS Don't misinterpret this as me saying it was the only AT I used as PE, I still had Marders, Panzershrecks, and sometimes a couple of Light AT Halftracks and/or 50mm AT Halftracks.


Not sure, but this looks like another misinterpretation of game mechanics. Phase armour only makes things miss if they would have missed anyways but scattered into the Puma. It doesn't cause things that are registered as hits to miss. While it is a slight advantage for the Puma, it's not something huge, and it only really affects RRs which rely on their low scatter to be good.

Also ATGs and tanks, Artekas...

ATGs and tanks what? Rely on scatter? Not really. RRs are pathetic in every factor but scatter. They have quite low damage, average penetration, and have similar slow rate of fire and low accuracy as other handheld AT, yet they come at a premium of 90 munitions per. Without taking scatter into account they're significantly worse than zooks for cost. However, because they have such low scatter they have SIGNIFICANTLY better actual accuracy than other handheld AT, except against Puma phase armour.

ATGs have a somewhat low scatter as well, although it's not quite as low as RRs and they don't rely on it at all, considering their base accuracy isn't atrocious. Tanks are bad when it comes to scatter, and rely on their base accuracy or splash damage to hit things.

I meant to say pumas dodge quite a bit of scattered tank and ATG shells :).

That because the puma has a very small hit box though isnt it? which the hotchkiss presumably doesnt...meaning the puma dodges more than its 0.8 incoming accuracy would suggest.

I'd say hotchkiss is actually smaller. Thing is, puma is told in the RGDs to phase missed, but scattered into the puma shots. The hotchkiss clips with those same shots, though.

No, it doesn't dodge more than its incoming accuracy would suggest. Once again, only things that would register as misses count as misses, so Pumas will still get hit 75% or 80% of the time regardless, as registered hits have nothing to do with phase armour.

I'm not 100% sure but I do think the cause of Puma phase armour is the extremely small hitbox, basically nonexistent so when a shot goes from the Puma model it doesn't actually hit the Pumas hitbox so the game doesn't count it as hitting even though you saw it just fly through the Puma model.

Fixing the puma phase armor would take about 10 seconds of RGD work, the hitbox isn't the cause.

Gamesguy proved it sometime ago.

Hey man you still got those video's you were talking about? I still want to push this issue to try and get more exposure, I keep getting people in the launcher agree that this unit is poor, its just a matter of bringing them into the discussions now. The more vids we get up the better our case will be.

lmao the hotch is trash, whats the point of useing them when every single form of AT simply crushes them. "ohhh use them for heavy tanks" lmao dont gimme that bullshit, how the hell is any hotch gunna deal with a pershing when it has atgs around it, like it normally... does. and even if you get the pershing alone, simple micro and both yer hotch are gone without dealing that much damage to the pershing.

ya that one did seem like a knee jerk 'fix' eh?

This isn't a freaking kindergarten, thread cleaned.
If you can't stick to the forum guidelines, don't bother posting.