COH: Europe In Ruins

Accuracy

PIAT

L .3
M .65
S 1.0

Schrek

L .35
M .75
S 1.0

Damage

PIAT 90
Schrek 120 (150 due to AoE damage multiplier of 1.25)

Penetration
PIAT

S 2.0
M 2.0
L 1.0

Schrek

S 1.0
M 1.0
L 1.0

Weapon vs Medium Tank

Schrek vs Sherman
1.0 accuracy
1.0 damage (150 damage)
0.8779 penetration

PIAT vs Panzer IV w/o Skirts
1.0 accuracy
1.6 damage (144 damage)
0.449 penetration (2.0 modifier at S/M range to 0.888)

PIAT vs Panzer IV w/ Skirts
1.0 accuracy
1.2 damage
0.449 penetration


With 2 PIATs per upgrade to 1 Schrek, at anything but the longest of ranges they far and away outdamage them, on a cheaper and similarly durable platform that can Ambush.

Both upgrades are 120mu.

Piat is getting + 1 pop nerf

as long as you drive away from them they don't hit you

i think really nasty are these 6 men commando squads with piats smoke and nades

even when they are 10 mun more expensive then normal piats they are much better on them

yeah you got to to take into account the piat projectile travels much slower so its unlikely to hit anything thats moving away from the piat.
but piats again can shoot trough stuff.

overall I would  say piat > schreck.
piat can move into range, stay behind cover yet shoot a volley, have chance to do a lot of dmg(like half of the P4s hp?) and back off again unharmed.
with schreck u move into range, you shoot and have chance to do damage(like 1/5th of sherman hp?), lose 2 guys of gren squad due to allied tank shooting you, and back off.

You also need to take into account that CW have vehicle disablers that are mobile and dual purpose.

PIAT > Shreck by any means.

1 no  , but 2 yes

You do have those odd moments though where the piat seems to have a sniper scope on it.

This is where it gets interesting.

If something rolls a "hit" then it homes in.

PIAT can fire over hedges and buildings... this must be taken into account.

More importantly, if you roll a "hit" both weapons are likely to hit their target short of something odd. This is where you get those heat seeking tank shells etc.

I see no problem with this, if it's a hit according to game mechanics,  it should be a hit.

It's not a problem, but it does negate the "well, if you move they miss"; only shots that rolled a miss will miss.

PIATs are a balistic artillery shell.

Meaning if they roll a "hit" they merely are guaranteed to hit the exact centre of the area they're targetting :).

They do not "magic home" like bazookas or tank shells do.

Agreed with Mys, it's an arty shell balistic type, I can dodge all I want and still not get hit, they don't home like say a bazooka round or sticky bomb.  That's why having more accuracy is usually BAD for a piat because sometimes you want it to scatter to hit a moving vehicle.

the schreck deals 150 damage. It has a 1.25 damage modifier from its AOE.

Good catch, I'm learning my way around the RGDs right now.

Do note that PIATs are Rich man's Riflenades. They are awsome at gibbing infantry

gotta love when it lands and kills guy in 1 hit

I have had shreks randomly snipe my officers and insta gib infantry too, doesn't happen that often but it sticks in your mind and seems like it happens alot more then it does.

Happens just as rarely as a sticky bomb not hitting its target

+1

Helpful demon, supporting a stupid comment.

A small chance to hit an infantry is not equal to an always hit sticky.

Sarcasm, you should learn it.

I chose intelligence instead of quick comments designed to hide just how little the user actually knows.

wrong again.

Oh no, i right again. To be wrong again, it would require me to be both wrong now and wrong previously.


Right #2

*facepalm*


wrong


wrong again

your all wrong, im right.

Missing with a sticky is about 0.1% probability
Hitting an infantry guy with a shrek is 15% if the enemy infantry isn't moving and at short range. Can drop to 2.625% if it's at long range and the enemy infantry IS moving.

So yeah.. Schrecks will hit infantry a lot more often than stickies will miss.

i think we sorta lost sight of the point of this post. Piats are far more cost effective the shrecks becuase you can fire from cover, especially on commandoes, you dont even need to fire from cover, just pop the smoke fire, run back into teh fog of war even before the enemy has a chance to fire back at you. Win

Nah, fire from behind a shot blocker while microing something else without wasting your smoke.

No, Shreks are far more effective then Piats.

1. Due to the speed of most allied vehicles / tanks, most piats will NOT hit
2. You do not want a Piat when your facing M8s/T17s etc. the advantage of shrek is if it rolls a hit, IT WILL HIT. it will home in. Piats arent able to do this.
3. Having to rely on 2 pieces of equipment to hit instead of 1 is a liability, you wont get most of your damage output from one piat, that said, in most cases having 2 squad members gibbed by a tank instantaneously  happens alot, thus having 2 squad members ieth AT equipment, lose another member you have 1 squad memebr doing half the damage without any chance of homing onto the target like the shrek is able to.

The issue about shot blockers is not a way to base the price on. ive havent been hit by Piats behind Hedges or buildings in a long while, i base this on L2P to people who experience this problem. Its easy to negate that advantage with some pre planning, and you knowign the maps, knowing the normal spots for piat campers, then you just avoid those area and bring them to fight on your group, when a tank length of reversing will negate he piat all together.

You are absolutely correct but you can also say that the other way around. A player who uses his piats well can negate any damage by just standing behind obstacles whilst dealing a lot of damage to both infantry and tanks.

I know from experience that piats are just so much easier to gain vet with. Piats function more like a priest, fragile but deadly and if used correctly they can deal damage without taking any. PzShrecks functions more like a bike, they can't hit anything, they can't do any damage and they usually end up dead before getting even a single hit/kill.

That piats have low accuracy is a myth, if they have vet or use ambush they can never miss a puma even if it moves on a road. And even if they do miss, they still fired from behind cover somewhere so they never take any damage.

There is a reason why players have almost entirely stopped using pzshrecks for their grenadiers while piats remain a very common unit on the battlefield, you may see shrecks occasionally on tankbusters or stormtroopers but for grenadiers it's just too overpriced for what they do, even when they sit in houses they are ineffective.

The piats are not the problem in this discussion, they are fine the way they are and CW needs them to make up for their lack of sustainable AT. But PzShrecks could use a small decrease in price, I have not seen a shreck grenadier in so long, I probably forgot how they look like. Most people are like, you have a shreck?? what a noob, just buy a pak instead and for the ammo that you save you can buy healthkits/grenades/lmgs.

Pony is pretty much correct. I tried using a pair of schrek grens, then deleted them, got a 4th PaK and never looked back.

Extra muni's went into equipping all my other Grens with LMGs and adding upgrades and 2nd repair to a P4.

Yep shrecks just dont compare to piats just for the sole fact that piats can shoot without the risk of 1. Losing thier mans 2. Taking ANY damage 3. if your piat commandos, you can shoot then instant camo or shoot and stay camo if you pop smoke at the right time.

I've brought this up to Groundfire in relation to the t3 unit unlock of fallschrimjager Tankbusters.

4 man squad, costs 250 MU to field, double shreks.  I asked him about why do I have to be forced into taking double shreks when I just want a single shrek.  His reply was as follows:

1) Its a design choice, and such that we cannot argue with the devs about their always right decisions.

2) Why do axis need versatility on their most powerful AT Infantry squad?

3) Why would you choose tank busters if you could buy 1 shrek on Falls Tankbusters? (my answer to that, I want to bloodly well airdrop them and use them to ambush without putting 250 MU behind enemy lines, also tank busters are not buffed via Falls doctrine choices).

4) Falls are an awesome unit, hence why they pay a premium in MU (120 x 2 = 240 MU, but they pay 250 MU for a squad that cannot move while cloaked like Storms, but apparently being airdroppable alone makes them cost more).

5) They have fewer men but they are tougher, fewer men is always better than more men like the allies.

6) You cannot balance across factions.

Those are just some of the reasons it seems Shreks will be stuck the way they are, and I tell you its maddening.  Groundfire or others may be happy to sink 250-300 MU into a single fragile squad that can be multi-man gibbed with very few 'bodies' to soak up hits like their allied counterpart, but I myself prefer to actually spread out AT for attrition sake.

I do agree that shreks in some cases need to come down over an ATG, just slightly and offer incentives to load out double shreks.  Bazookas are 55 MU a piece (under rangers they drop by 15 MU to 80), yet 2 shreks receives no discount for 'putting all your eggs in one basket'.

Just my viewpoint anyway.

I use Storm Shreks, and Commando Piats....

Want to knwo when piats get nasty?  When there is 3-4 on one of my squads, If i pick up a shreck or RR or Zook on my Piat Squad its GG. 

I would rather have Shrecks on my storms for the 300 Munions than the Piats just because of the ability to get the Hits. 

The Commandos with Vet and Piats get worse because instead of more scatter, you get les scatter with piats and they usually hit less.  You have to know when to fire a piat.... When the amror sees you thats when you fire because they all don;t roll straight they stop and try to reverse...

Heres the major difference...

Woith Shrecks i can scare Shermans and they have to run away, With P4s they could litterally run through me, and just do whatever they wanted...  But instead they liek to run from them.

I take armored cars vs piats all day long or pumas and its hilliarious, As long as you know you go in a straight line as fast as possible the piat almost always misses... Unless a stray one fires in a direction it was ment to miss then it hits.....

Straight line is the worst for AC's and Puma's. I already had to prove to a few people that you can successfully Attack Ground anytime you like to kill those faster units.

anytime you want to test that thery ground i will be more than happy to hpop in a 1v1 and make sure to ahhiliate your piats sqauds

I've already demonstrated on multiple occassions in 1v1's and on multiple occassions in games that it's easy to do.

We'll run into eachother on the field eventually

Just to respond to the dual shrek fjs, they actually imo get the fjs buffs, and they do turn into stormies, when combined with the T4 ulock, apart from this they also get an ambush bnus, plus, they can get further acc bonus from vet AND the docs, I run atm 2 diff lufft coys, and the second one us using the dual shreks, i have 2 with vet 3, took me 3-5 games. Fjs tank busters are fine.

When it comes to shreks in general I would say that they are great on the Elite typ inf, but need price or in some ways DOC appeal to become used again.

the second reason imo that Piats are better than skres is that more often than not you can run upp and press halt, and fire, and not get block by obstacles or LOS, while squads with shreeks need the specific members to see the tank to be able to fire.

Schreks lost appeal ever since we realized someone had tweaked the Accuracy of them and we reverted it. They do need Doctrine buffs to be selected over Pak's and AT vehicles though.

They still remain a great way to vet squads though. With Grenaiders it's easy to swap them around based on your enemy

Maybe its also the back up i can provide when i am blitz, But i have always always found it easier to run storms with ostwinds and stuhs then it has been to run commando piats (especially th 6 man commando squad with only 2 piats) and stags, or croms, or stuarts. 

Shreks are only useful on elite units such as fallschirms and storms.

Absolute shit on grenadiers.

On the other hand, piats are good on every kind of unit there is.

You best be joking.
its only as good as the player that uses them is.

Schrecks are only good if you can get 2 of them on 1 squad.
That allows you to keep them in the back and only use them if you see tanks, as they are very expensive they need to stay alive as long as possible.
For PE its TH or Luft where you can put them in a HT with 2xschreck.
A PG squad or Gren squad with just 1 schreck is just not good enough imo.

1. Put shrek on gren
2. BLow up ur own cover with shrek
3. See Sherman crew laughing while they blast u away
4. Invest in Paks

FJ Tank Busters are worth all 250mu that you pay for them. The ability to receive powerful doctrine buffs comes at a cost of 10mu, it's an absolute bargain. Chuck one squad in a HT and you have an epic HT, leave them in cloak and wait for an m8 to come by and it's golden.

Regular grens with shreks are in my opinion, and in my companies, the strongest supporting unit you can have on the field. Shrek grens with a grenade compliment every unit in the WM arsenal. Pak + shrek, Panther + shrek = all good uses of AT, whilst also performing a nice AI.


See this is the problem, so many people are relying on Shrek grens as a pure 100% AT counter. Only running shrek grens is like only running zook rangers, or only running AB RR's. I think the problem is that shrek grens are a unit that requires a fair bit of care, and players in EIRR just aren't willing to use units in a supportive role, everything has to be frontline attack or else it's UP.

There's not much I can say about PIATs, every Brit coy i've ever ran has had 2-4 squads, but I only really rely on them to do damage to heavies and super heavies any more due to dmg bonuses. I'll take a shrek over 2 piats any day though.

My most recent terror company has a KT + ostwinds for fuel, and the only real AT in it IS shreks and paks, and it's working damn well at the moment. I'd be happy to play vs anyone and prove it.

I don;t know if ppl remember but EIRRMod pissed me off back when he removed the Double Shrek from gren squads because i used those exclusively because at the time, storms were the most suppression prone units in game where a burst from a friendly volks squad scared them into suppression. 

Now i use storms, I think that 2 piats on commando piats is underpowered, I would like the option to buy a 3rd piat on my commandos because then they could be dedicated at, much like 4 man squad of storms has 2 shrecks, i want 6 man to have 3 piats. 

The Double shreck squad is a thing of bueaty... Why?  USe them in pairs...  10 pop cap of pure annhiliation, and anyone thats seen me use them, when i get a 3rd shreck or a an rr or a zook even its just pure laughter you hear in a channel. 

The Double Shrek is the most fear thing on the battle field, when you have 2 squads of double Shreks, the only thing that gos in against it is a HE Pershing.. 

I once had 4 squads of storms camped near a road coming from the enemy spawn, a Pershing comes FLYING by full speed... on a road... Shrecks don;t miss vehicles on the roads...  Full speed, Flies by, All Shreks Fire... All Rear Shots... 1 dead Pershing...

Now... Could Piats do that?  No... They would have to ask the Nice pershing to stop please so i may hit you with my form of AT and don;'t do a drive by like a Gangsta Motherfucker.

If a Tiger was rolling by they would of hit because the Tiger is slower.
Theres no point in comparing allied equipment against allied equipment. you must compare axis equipment against allied equipment and visa versa.

so stating that Piats wouldnt be able to hit a Pershing is irrelevant argument

OK piats hitting as tiger on the road, Would not happen, or maybe 2 would hit from luck

We should do a test if you wanna base your argument on that  :)

Lets 1v1 it, P4s and Shermans, Non vetted uinits Sitting ont he side of the road

Im pretty sure you just said tiger...

yer you completely changed your argument Puddin

PIAT is a thing that is ridicilously annoying to fight against. It deals 90 damage per hit, enough to kill any soldier in game- and believe it or not these things work just as well as riflenades. They might not be as effective but they still do it and if you blob them like nug does you can see their fully effectiveness. Especially on commandos. 6 men with 2 piats. That leaves 4 men with rifles, granted, its a shit rifle but that doesn't change the fact that it is 6 men. It is more pop and no ambush but they get dmg bonuses from their doctorine abilities.

PIAT, you can't touch it unless it is right in front of you. It is always used over hedges buildings and so on. 2 PIAT squads with Ambush can just as well ALPHA kill a non-skirted P4 and lethally damage off skirted P4 forcing it to repairs. The PIAT is only weak vs pumas and fast vehicles that are able to catch them. VS ANY tank it deals perfectly and wonderfully, ever tried crushing a PIAT squad? Doesn't work because the piat will always hit at close range and always deal rear damage. 2 PIATs for 120 munition is a bargain. If anything they could be 130 munition for a pair. The platforms they come in aren't bad. Sappers as shite as they might seem are not bad. They are only bad if caught out in the open without a friendly support.

If one were to ask me, I'd say that the best handheld is the PIAT, second schreck and so on RR and so on. All the advantages of a PIAT has over any other piece makes PIATs unbelieveable strong. Schreck are plain terrible and a random dice roll weapon. Sometimes the squad shoots its own foot with it, sometimes kills their own cover, sometimes it scatters and flies somewhere and then it hits. So random. PIAT hits can be random but it doesn't matter. Your squad is in cover and can not be fired on unlike, Zook, RR, and schreck. The ability to shoot over shotblockers is the best ability. Think about ROOs, piat and bren in it means that it kills any tank and if not kill damage highly. It isn't the roo that makes it so powerful, its the piat and bren button that made it powerful thus hard to balance. Brencarrier with MMG bren and piats mariokart ride is also powerful and hard to beat due to shotblockers. Take any city map or hedgerow hell maps and watch the PIATs shine.

I don;t have a tiger to try it with, But i will be more then happy to kill any that you do have. 

It wasn;t a change of argument it was a matter of me not having time to level up companies, But lets do it, Whos game?  We can broadcast over X fire and No fuck ups.