COH: Europe In Ruins

the jumbo needs either a massive price increase (to panther price) or an armor type change

currently it is a panther with an anti infantry gun instead of an anti tank gun and broken armor because the weapon tables are broken and not balanced for mirror matches (allies weapons vs allied armor and axis weapons vs axis armor)

paks have half of the penetration against jumbos than against pershings
and everyone knows that the pak is not that great in penetrating pershings (half of the shots bounce)

due to the low basic penetration of pak against the jumbo even the first strike ambush shot bounces most times

that is ridicules and retarded because jumbos rape paks they rape shreks they rape p4 and they rape stugs (especially with tankreapers T4)

the only "main" tank/unit that may hurt them are 500fuel more pop panthers that are hardcore AT

why not giving the tiger pershing armor than to mess abit more around with broken weapon tables for mirror balance?

You're the first person I know to complain about the Jumbo.


Now, with my obvious Allied Fanboiyism, I'm just going to state my opinion, in which I believe the Jumbo is fine as it is, being a Tier 3 unit afterall.


Feel free to counter my stupid argument.

so it is fine that the hardcounter to tanks (named AT gun) is not able to at least scare away a main battle tank for infantry company because it will almost never penetrate and has no awesome ap rounds available?
so its ok that these hardcounter to tanks have only 50% of penetration against these mainbattle tanks than against the us heavy tanks?

going toe to toe with a p4 jumbo wins more easily than upgun :S.

It has Panther Skirts armor and it is slower than a regular Sherman. Consider it as a better Churchill. Actually if churchills would get their armor changed into panther skirts I think they'd become beasts ;D

*waits for someone to say l2p*

jumbo actually is broken vs all the weapons that can be captured (so that's all handheld AT and AT guns)
This is because those weapons have dmg tables vs the axis panther, so it is impossible to change it for the jumbo without changing the stats weapons have vs the panther.

I feel jumbo speed could also go down quite a bit more. at the moment it is not noticeable enough. a jumbo driving backwards could still get away from my panther driving straight at it.

uhh panther can outrun most allied vehicles...

u mean p4...
but yeah maybe a little slower like tiger speed?

it was a panther and I was trying to get behind the jumbo to block it. But it took so long to do that the jumbo was in safety way before I could even get close.

and yeah, the P4 is just completely pathetic.

Doesnt the Jumbo have Churchill speed?  i have seen my old jumbos chased down by panthers before... and i have chased down jumbos with my panther as well.. its not that much of a difference, but the panther from what i have seen is a tad bit faster.


on a side note... the +25% penetration given to the jumbo for TR is better than a normal shermans upgun correct?

while more expensive than sherman...but people will say,p4 is good,l2p...

i Played with jumbos.
3pieces i have in my company ;).
they aren't to strong.
assault nades for grens cost 50munition.
they, supported by a tiger are MUCH to strong ;)
jumbo need and upgrade for 80-100munition (long 76mm gun, same like the upgunned sherman)
the jumbo as a front armour of 110mm so he had 10mm more then the tiger in reality ;)
dont whine because jumbo. Not many allies play with it.
whine because the a-nades are defintly too strong^^

dont whine because ass nades. Not many axis play with it.

dont whine at all. not many are noob like u.

also tiger company has 2 tigers max. jumbos can have much more + tiger isnt bugged.

i mean only that the jumbo isnt too strong.
assault nades are too strong and the most blitz player use them ;) and the most axis play bltiz.
i have blitzcompany too but german enginerring, recon plane, stormis and tiger.
its very unfair to play with assault nades.
A jumbo is only a good tank, NOT OP.
there should be an upgrade where u are able to give him an 76mm gun.
ah leophone and why u said that im a noob?
u dont know...
its cost 380fuel.
i can have 3 of them and i have three
with german engineering u can have "4" tigers ;)

Jumbo is fine. My PaKs do perfect killing them.

The only problem I can say with jumbo's is that they get free skirts. I believe they should have to pay a munitions cost for that skirted upgrade just like the axis. The shrek has a worse chance penetrating a jumbo ATM then penetrating a pershing.

dude because you play defensive and use pak 40 that got what 80% penetration
if you meant the pak38 then i really want some of that stuff your smoking

the pak38 got 20% penetration against the jumbo

even against a pershing it got 40%

the penetration against the jumbo is like penetrating a freaking jagd without ap rounds from front

as infantry doctrine u get more mp and mun than fuel so you can have 3 jumbos.
german engineering "4" tigers ;)

I never had an issue killing them, they are slow vehicles.

(the Speed in the RGD's isn't correct, there was something messing up the values a while back so we adjusted to compensate. It till hasn't been corrected since then) but the tank is pretty close to churchill speed. A panther can run circles around it.

as PE it's even easier to kill with a Marder and a Treadbreaker shot

"4" tigers thats bullshit dude first you need to spend 120 additional munition onto each tiger means 2 tiger = 420 munition for the repairs and second only campy lame dudes get german engineering because its kind of a dick playstyle to sit back to spawn repairing for minutes while the teammates got a bloddy nose holding the front and pushing

when you played last time they got pershing armor not broken (for axis weapons) skirted panther armor

and they are faster than a tiger


i don't talk about the PE i talk about the hardcounter to tanks wehrmacht got called pak38

marder is doing better than against pershings

Even bouncing, the PaK will do 57.5 damage. Also, I've been using Blitz, without Assault, and doing just fine.

Whats that, oh no, a Jumbo!? Let me bring over this other tank that costs about the same and kill it, or use 2 PaK guns to kill it....

Jumbo is slow, it's gun is not amazing, all it has is Panther armor and 100 more HP.

If you can't fight them it's your own fault.

just a side note, if you have German engineering you get 6 tigers not 4. Two from the start, another 2 after the first repair, and finally another 2 after the last repair; thus, 6.

PQ

your wrong you get 10 tiger but u know whats even more awesome? my 20 pershing company  ::) no kidding  ::)

we speak about tiger now? i thought i created the topic to look at penetration of paks against jumbos

i must be wrong

hmm,and if Tiger dies before it can repair or while repairing,then why I get 2 tigers instead of 6 I payed for  ::)

Jumbo's are easily killed if you know what ur doing, which bd obviously doesn't despite all his elitism.

Also im guessing that jumbos ruin is spam strategy, so i feel no sympathy, time to load up on jumbos again.

Anyway, I didn't understand the change to panther_skirts armor, it used to just be panther, then they changed it without alerting the community. The thing is very vulnerable to tanks, it has a 75mm sherman gun and no, the 25% pen doesn't make it better than a 76mm, just a bit under it maybe about 85-90% as effective as a 76mm.

it's just a tougher sherman ffs and you can only have 3 really, maybe 4 if you go for more fuel but then u can't get howitzers which most inf coys need.

also they need the toughness because they can't get away from anything, once it's within an arc of fire for something, it's going to take hits and the only axis tank it can out run is a king tiger.

They do need toughness cuz they are as slow as anything, i can even see it as slow as a KT in comparison because of a fast firing PAK. but they are really slow and have a chunk of metal rolling around the field who isnt as nearly as effective as a KT well then i say the resources are fine. I havent checked but if it is more expensive then a p4. leave it that way.

The Jumbos turret rotation speed is also a drawback for the Jumbo.

540-380

normal sherman 395 240
pershing 620 545

its priced pretty much tween a sherman and a pershing.

Speed Comparison - Speed, Acceleration, Deceleration
Jumbo - 4.5, 1.4, 4
Pershing - 5, 2, 4
Sherman - 5.2 1.6, 4
Tiger - 4, 2, 4
KT - 3, 1.2, 2

so i was wrong about it being kt speed, i think it used to be but it's just a bit faster than a tiger.

the jumobos saving grace is it's heavy crush and it's strong frontal armor. but funny things, its' weak to random axis weapons. If you have issues, bring a stuh.

Stuh 1 acc, .9 dmg 100% pen vs panther skrits armor. lol

lol @ bigdick saying pak is bad.
Seriously, jumbo's are slow and have bad turret rotation, if you can't counter after your number of games, delete EIRR please.

wtf is wrong with some of you?

ok in capital letters

i dit NOT say the pak is bad i say the PENETRATION of the PAK against JUMBO is BAD and BROKEN

jesus christ

you guys should just put it back to pershing armor or something.

You know what big dick is right, 6 pdr and 57 mm's penetration against Panther frontal and Tiger and KT frontal is BAD and BROKEN too, nerf that shit.

Back to the real world. Jumbo will get penetrated almost 100% of the time if you hit the sides and rear, thats the truth or get a PAK 40 and deal with it.

that is wrong because US does not use the pak38 they use the AT57mm which is much better at penetrating the panther armor than the pak38

What does the jumbo come with exactly?

What health again?  What MGs? does it have a free 50 cal or something? because its mgs seem to do just as good or better than a regular sherman with a 50cal added.


Jumbos are most cost effecient if you want more mun for your AT guns or Infantry. 

to make a regular sherman as effective against Infantry and Tanks you have to spend 110mun... a jumbo with TR is just as effective against tanks as a upgun.. its 25per pen bonus is better against panther, tiger..   against the iv stug jagd and hetzer its slighly worse.

you can basically have 3 jumbos, that means if you carried 3 shermans with the standard upgrades to make them as useful, you use 330 mun.. on weaker tanks..   you could, if you wanted to still get at least 1 howi with advantages...

TR Jumbo = so much more affective than my HE M4s, I'm truly jealous of infantry and might play TR just to play around with these bad boys.

Apparently you don't know exactly what the Jumbo is.  It's a Sherman tank with panther SKIRT armor (that's new, used to be Pershing and then panther).  It has a free built-in 50 cal into the tank as well as 50 HP less than a pershing and slower speed than a Sherman.  It is a 'MU Efficient' tank but solely because it cannot get the mine plow or upgun, leaving you only with repair kits.

The tank is great against infantry, as intended, and it's not so good against german armor.  Leigs and StuH do incredible damage to the sucker, and alpha striking them with shreks makes them go bye bye really fast.  If you run a mine company, the few jumbos on the field are in for a world of hurt, nor are they 'chasing' axis armor due to the terrible penetration of their guns and the risk of losing an expensive tank if it gets lured into a trap.

i know what it is.. i was just asking what free stuff it came with, stating it comes with free 50cal and if you get TR it makes it just like a upgun sherman for the most part, so ya, if you want to only run 3 tanks its a better option...  jumbo seems better when it came out first time with pershing armor, seems weaker now...   really should take off the panther armor, as the jumbo itself had better armor anyways...

damn, there i go with realism shit again, sorry.

An up-gun sherman is still around 50% better vs most tanks than the TR jumbo.

so a upgun sherman with that t4 with armor is pretty useful probably ?

76mm Sherman against Panther is 0.365 penetration. With HVAP that knocks up to 0.48545 upon adding 33%.

Against a Tiger it goes from 0.451 up to 0.59983.

So, against a Panther, your still pretty much buggered. Against a Tiger, you've got a reasonable chance of penetration, but the Tiger will still cut you to ribbons.

A pair of Shermans against a Tiger though... That might be going places with HVAP. Maybe.

EDIT:

Interesting note, penetration against Stugs goes from 0.646 up to 0.85918 making the 76mm HVAP an effective Stug hunter.

is that math correct? i thought it would just add 33percent onto the already 36 percent giving roughly 70 percent penetration chance?  so its 33 percent of 36 percent?  uggh.. lol.  well, if you get them to vet3 they would work a bit more too

man give the allies a strong unit and axis players go bezerk. IF they cant go toe to toe with it, its OP?

shutup you.

No its if they cant find a easy counter to it or use an old tactic its op.

lolk

considering the Jumo range and slow speed... a panther could beat it just by distence alone...

I have seen jumps used and playedagainst them, You have to flank it, ITs liek playing a Tiger or a KT without less health and worse armor. 

Go for the front and your an idiot.. 

The ironic part i rember reading posts about dual tiger companies alot of these same posters saing l2p vs the tiger and do this or that, Ironic how the Jumbo is getting argued with instead of their L2P arguments... 

The ironey is thick young padwon.

I can say for a fact that Jumbos are pretty good, but not exactly a game breaker. Just be glad they didn't decide to put it in Armor Company so it can reap the benefits of that.

i just go my hands on the jumbo. Meh good to beat on inf with. And now i got TR. So maybe they can blow something up. Only chance american armor has is to hit german armor in the rear. but jumbo is slowwww.

in my axis coys i have no issues vs jumbo's tbh, especially since i've played with them. They dont have huge splash like tigers and king tigers, dont have excellent speed like panthers and jagds, and dont have their longer range either. The only thing they really have is a free 50 cal, strong front armor and 100 more health than a normal sherman. I got one of these into a bad situation today and it got completely raped in no time by a couple of schrecks and 2 paks and it melted just as fast as any sherman would.

2 57's and couple of schrecks would even melt tiger while we are at it...

736 health vs 1064 health. a jumbo goes down faster.

Tiger goes faster,since jumbo will bounce 38 quite a bit,but Tiger wont bounce AP rounds ...heck,Jumbo even bounces Jagd shots well...

Jumbo has better frontal armor than the Tiger, and it don't have to worry about stickies,  AP rounds and PIATS RRs etc , realy something is WRONG here.

to put that into numbers

the at57mm got 145% of the basic penetration vs a tiger compared to pak50 vs a jumbo

if you add ap rounds its 730% better penetration vs the tiger compared to pak50 vs jumbo

 :o :o :o :o :o !!!!!!!!!!!!!!  :o :o :o :o :o !!!!!!!!!!

seriously, do you guys wait until I post and then jump into a thread with boners in your pants cuz i can't seem to get away from you without you trolling my threads. All I did was state something that happened, not theory crafting.

yes.

get a life then.

Don't post on EIR then.

Like I said earlier, The only thing I dislike is the pak38 vs rear modifiers fail and the fact that it gets free skirts.

Other than that its food for my AT based companies.

+1 lmao

1. I swear both demon and tym are nubs
2. Get the fuck on topic
_____________________________

What do you think about jumbo loosing skirts?

Maybe it could pay for it, but how would you symbolize that on the model?

i'm against changing it, it's a t3 unlock, it's slow and its only good vs infantry, its only saving grace IS that it can bounce shots.

and its not free skirts, its just panther_skirt armor, which gives it a 10% dmg buff vs schrecks, which is nothing tbh, thats 135 on a clean hit and 108 on a scattered hit.

The only thing wrong with the Jumbo is the doctrine it's unlocked in. Should be in armor tbh. Give armor the option of either heavy ass rape pershings, or cheaper ass rape resistant shermans. ...or a queer mix of both should they want to.

Having what basically amounts to a heavy tank in the infantry doctrine doesn't make all that much sense to me.

could you imagine how sexy a jumbo with armor buffs would be?

but jumbo works for infantry because it's an awesome infantry support tank.

Armor doesn't have many buffs that increase survivability save Urban Survival Kit's 12% less received damage, so I don't think the Jumbo would become 'too much' to handle. But yeah, I suppose the other buffs armor gives would make it "sexy". Not OP but "sexy" for sure.

Still, it's basically a heavy tank. It can be used for infantry support in the Armor doctrine. Having a tough ass Jumbo supporting infantry doctrine buffed rangers and support weapons seems a little extreme. Regular shermans could do that job and not be so (I don't want to say "overwhelming"... but) overwhelming.

its not in armor cuz they have the pershing and callie already.

the Jumbo is and was (realistically) an infantry support tank, not an MBT. Which in EIRR is so true as well, it sux without any type of infantry support, it gets raped rather fast.

overwhelming? really Mal? the only overwhelming thing about it is it can bounce shots, other than that it's a 75mm Sherman with a .50 cal

yes thats the reason,  relic didn't make uber armor medium us tank for a reason

Yes, and neither did they make a sniper that can fire and suppress and not have the "sniped" icon
Nor did they make an axis atgun that can penetration any allied armor
Nor did they make a support weapon that rapes infantry
Nor did they make a mobile pak on wheels
Nor did they make ist's, stukas and hummels have flame rounds
Nor did they make it so IST's and move while locked down

So what's your point? I can come up with more.

The point is, this is a design decision and it's no where near OP. But of course, only you and demon are the ones attacking me on this so its obvious you're trolling me and can't come up with any better argument other than "I'm too effin stupid to come up with a way to counter it"

The holy trinity for tank design is Mobility, Firepower, Protection. The Jumbo only has 1 side of the triangle and pays a high price for it.

The only great armor tanks were always axis heavies (excluding pershing which was small exception from start) , giving a good protection to allied tank  ( and a MEDIUM on top of it all)  is just meh,   it should be either firepower or mobility like the whole factions tank metagameplay.

It would be more logical to give a medium good armored tank to axis than to allies going with metagameplay. (that's why allies have AP rounds)

like axis needs more heavy armor. Allies already have issues vs pathers, tigers, king tigers, jagds, hetzers, stugs, and stuhs, why would they need another? The allies only have teh churchill, pershing and now jumbo.

With the m-18 being more effective, theres no need to give another hard hitting or fast unit.

Meanwhile, Tym would scream and cry if we got 2 KT's in Terror.

The m18 is more effective? I think not!

With this sentence you are contradicting the basic gameplay which is in eir and coh since 4 years.
If heavy armor was not intended, relic would not make jagpanther nor different variations of tiger.
They did not make a tank like jumbo beacause it is absolutely not needed, and as proven, breaks gameplay

Why allies need good armor AT ALL if axis don't have dedicated counter dictated by metagameplay which are AP rounds.





Then there is no need for jumbo then, because allies got the units they need  with speed and firepower, they don't need a medium tiger.

dude, like i said before, then they dont need mobile freakin paks, mobile ists, snipers that can hit without u knowing where they are and many other things that are made for EIRR through doctrines and additions, so that argument is totally invalid.

Lol medium tiger? 87.5 vs 120 dmg and 736 health weaker armored sherman vs a faster 1064 health tiger. a panther easily beats a jumbo 1 v 1, how is it a weaker tiger? it's more of a stronger sherman than a weaker tiger, especially since Tigers can penetrate all allied armor and the 75 has issues penetrating freakin p4's. Just shut up already.

paks were always mobile and before they could move under cloak


This is different because allies have means to kill a ist or sniper, you do it normaly like you always have done. While when a jumbo with its armor attacks you , 80% of shots bounce off and there is nothing you can do about it.


Stronger sherman, weaker tiger = different naming , same thing. It does the purpose like tiger does,  kill infantry with ease, got good frontal armor which is more effective than tigers because axis don't have AP rounds, can kill all pe vehicles hts ists,  it cannot kill only p4 and heavies,  what would you expect , to kill a tiger with a sherman? Tym pls.


There is a easy way to fix this tho.

Give AP rounds to paks and 50mm hts and everyone will be happy.

mobile pak = pe 50mm

and axis have ways of killing jumbos. LIke i said, just cuz you suck too hard to kill one doesn't mean no one else can.

and no, dont give axis ap rounds. they already have the strongest damaging units in the game, giving them ap rounds is ludicrous.

The strongest anti tank that the allies have is the AT-Gun, and thats 150 base damage. next is Pershing at 137.5 and after that the m-10 and m-18 at 112.5. Brits have the Firefly at 125, the 6 pdr at 150 and the 17 at 150
The axis on the other had have several units that do more than 112.5.
G-Wagon
Marder
Tiger
King Tiger
Panther
Jagdpanther
Flak 88
Panzerschreck
Goliath
Pak38

and of these choices, the Jumbo would get raped by
tiger
king tiger
panther
jagdpanther
flak 88
schreck
goliath

the only thing it would beat 1 v 1 is the pak38.

So please, give me a break dude.

StuGs rape Jumbos pretty hard right on their face. OW!

Right, if he bothered to actually check rgds, he'd see stugs get 45% pen vs panther skirts.
ppanthers have 204% pen

oh and here's a funny oversight. Stuh gun = 100% pen vs panther skirted armor. (damage 100)

Shreks are terrible vs jumbo, Shrek does get pen decreace like every other hand held AT.
 
The jumbo is priced for what it does ATM, just some weapons need pen changed, and it should pay mun for skirt

jumbo is fine leave as is.

You gotta hit it from the side or rear, its pretty slow so be pro and flank that shit.

That pretty much goes for every tank in the game.

Tym, don't be stupid. I know "overwhelming" was a poor choice of words. I even admitted it in the post. I only used it because I couldn't think of a better word at the time. Since you read my post you surely must have realized that. Unless, of course, your reading comprehension is a bad as your bias (fanboy).

Damn, I'm not even saying the Jumbo is OP and Tym urgently tries to defend his company build (because he's a fanboy)

/troll tym

The Jumbo is still a better fit for armor doctrine. Infantry doesn't need a heavy tank to support its riflemen/rangers since its infantry and support weapons are buffed to hell as it is. And if they want to tailor their company to be better at AT they have tank reapers in their doctrine for just that purpose. They don't need a Jumbo in their build to support that. It edges up to overkill.

Armor on the other hand has shitty pee pee infantry and if someone doesn't want to invest giant chunks of resources into pershings they wouldn't have too. They could have cheaper tough ass shermans instead. And with the buffs to tanks in that doctrine the Jumbo would be more than a meat shield, but wouldn't be OP because it wouldn't have elite armor, fire-up, smg/zook bastards running all around it.  

So, in short: All I'm saying is don't give a new heavy tank unit to infantry doctrine; give it to armor. It's in the name after all. If you wanted to play with heavy tanks you should have gone armor anyway. You don't see me asking for super heavy ATGs for terror doctrine. If I wanted that shit I'd go defensive, where super heavy ATGs belong.

just an FYI; I really do not respect any of you who find the need to insult other players in order to advance your own argument. On the one hand, it really just makes you look like you have no real argument so you resort to childish tactics. On the other hand, it makes you look very unintelligent.

If someone is a "fan boy" or biased that will come through in his or her arguments. We don't need you pointing things out every second because it makes you think that your argument is all of a sudden better.

Just because someone disagrees with your argument does not mean he is a troll. Malgoroth and nugnug, this point is mainly to you; but many others fall under the same point of issue. I hope this message gets through to you both; my guess is you will just proceed to TRY and do the same thing to me. Unfortunately for you two, I'd eat you both for lunch.

PQ

PS: If you take anything from this post, its that YOU ARE ALLOWED TO DISAGREE WITH OTHER PEOPLE. If you do not agree with Tym say so and move on. Perhaps point out what issues you disagree on if you feel the need. Overall, he has provided relatively valid points and I see no issue (including no bias) in his post. The both of you on the other hand clearly are presenting an axis bias.

Me trolling tym (for now, anyway) is simply a response to him misrepresenting what I said earlier and trying to get under his skin because it's really easy and kind of fun. Something I thought was obvious with the /troll tym thing. And if you look at my ACTUAL response to his argument (and the theme of the thread) there is no reference to his fanboy-ness.

Nice attempt at playing the bigger man though. We are all thoroughly moved by your internet integrity.  

You mad ? If anyone Tym insulted me in this thread, i posted nothing but arguments  and he told me to shut up. ( i didn't even call him a fanboy)

I suggest you go back to posts and re-read them and think twice before you make a post judging someone, because clearly you just posted what suited you currently.

True. Was a reaction to 8th who said schrecks suck vs it. Standard shermans m10s etc do get penetrated by pretty much everything including schrecks from the front taking heavy dmg, except the jumbo. Schrecks dont suck vs Jumbo. just dont shoot at the front but from the flanks. Hardly anything will penetrate the jumbo from the front, so yes vs everything always flank, but especially vs the jumbo cuz its slow making it easier, but especially becuz shooting at the front wont get you anywhere at all. If you attack a jumbo head on with schrecks you pretty much played bad. Gotta think pro and be smart, lure it in, then flank it properly, it wont get away that fast with its slow speed. The #1 you want to avoid when playing vs jumbo is to get kited by it, especially your inf which wil get raped.

imo, if u put the jumob in armor, the buffs armor gets would make it either too good (especially the speed and repair buffs) or it would be considered useless, why get a jumbo if you have a pershing. Better gun, faster, and better or similar received penetration

2 Pershings is more valuable than being able to get 4 jumbos.

oh and i forgot this until i just played with it and it annoyed me, it has a slower rotation speed than a normal sherman, which can be a real bother, and makes flanking it so much easier.

OMG the turret is slow.

I don't think the buffs would make it OP. Its stats are shit against tanks. With armor doctrine it might behave like a super armored 76mm. Not super powerful. Just better (I don't have access to corsix, so if someone wants to take the time to see what the stats would be with something like hvap applied that'd be cool).

The unit itself isn't OP, it's the synergy (I hate the fucking word) it brings to the doctrine with rangers and buffed support weapons that makes it seem so. Honestly I think something like a 105 sherman would be a better fit for a doctrine unlock. Right now it feels like the Jumbo overbuffs the infantry doctrines capabilities.

I think the option to have 4 double repair doctrine buffed Jumbos as opposed to 2 pershings might be tempting to some. Less pop means they could field more units at once with Jumbos than they could with the pershing. And having 4 of them means more chances to get your resources worth out of them in case you do something stupid or get jewed over somehow. Imho putting the Jumbo in armor would add some variety to that doctrine.

i didn't say it'd make it OP i said either too good or not worth it. It fits infantry perfectly, it's damage soaker, which was a real life doctrine, axis have always been able to do this with panthers, tigers, kt's, jagds, stugs, stuh's and hetzers, US until the jumbo only had the pershing

Jumbo is fine, it is the entire definition of a balanced unit. If anything it's the cost, but I consider the unit to be perfectly balanced ingame. Stop arguing about it already.

The best counter is still with tanks btw, if you haven't already realized this it's pretty much like the IST, can't do shit against tanks. Even upgun pumas can kill it easily.

Seriously? Your definition of a damage soaker and mine must be way off. Hetzers? Seriously? Besides, with 17 pdrs, and AP 57's stalking every battlefield you would NOT want to risk "soaking" damage with any other those tanks. You would be sorely disappointed with the results.

The Jumbo is fine stat-wise. It still should be moved to armor where it would be a much better fit. Infantry doesn't need a heavy tank to hide behind. Infantry support can be achieved by the regular sherman.

Like I said... if you want to play with heavy tanks you should go armor.

Dude, no it can't be achieved by a regular sherman, every axis anti tank weapon penetrates Shermans, they're so vulnerable. Yes you can achieve a good amount of damage but they die so freakin easily. Theres only 3 vet 3 shermans in the whole of eirr 21 vet 2 while there are 14 vet 3 p4's and 17 vet 2.

Also, if you talk about getting a 105 to infantry, you'd probably whine about them 1 hitting axis support weaponry which is what every similar type gun does, like the 90mm crom or the 105mm stuh. Then you'd just have ranger 105 spam coys, why even bother having a howitzer?

Just had a game where i saw a jumbo penetrating jagpanther front armor from long range.

Err how does an upgun puma kill a Jumbo easily? Especially given the low dmg of the 50mm puma, less than half the health, and 10% less dmg it does to panther skirt armor?  It's certainly possible if u can block and avoid the turret rotation. But I wouldn't define it as easy especially given the amt of time it would take to kill the Jumbo, other support could arrive.

I once saw an eng bounce an ostwind round.

Tym, you've been playing long enough to know the amount of vet 3 units does not correlate to that units effectiveness. How many vet M10's are there? Are you going to tell me that the M10 is a bad tank because of this? Even better, how many vet 3 pershings exist in eir? Are you going to claim those are weak too?

It sounds like you just want it easier. You can play sloppy with a Jumbo and do fine, but god forbid you use a regular sherman and actually have to micro. Everything penetrates PIVs but you don't see the devs giving defensive doctrine PIV Jumbos do you? Wehrmacht players can support their infantry just fine with a PIV which loses 1 on 1 with a 76 sherman, so why is a 76 sherman not a good enough support tank for infantry?
Your "because stuff can actually penetrate it!" argument isn't gonna fly.

^ +1

I didn't quote the number of vet 3 units to show unit effectiveness, I quoted the number of vet 3 units to show how two similar tanks how the one you tell me i should use instead of a jumbo is underperformed.

The fact is, the number of vetted units correlates exactly to their survivability, not so much effectiveness. If all I wanted was a bunch of throw away shermans yeah i can do that but I dont want a bunch of throw away shermans, i want a tank that can last


Actually, I dont play sloppy with a Jumbo, I play quite conservative and they last a long time. Do you notice the sig? Yeah thats my vet 3 jumbo which now has 400 xp, you can't get 400 xp on a unit playing sloppily, you get there with good/great micro management.

Actually WM does get jumbos, they're called Panthers, Tigers and King Tigers.

Prove that point please.

ololo ATGs never had any issues penetrating these mofos. PAK's first shot pouncing off from a Jumbo however makes me giggle.

That is what i'm hinting at.

i feel the contradiction


q.e.d.

tym with such high exp unit clearly prove its OPness


to put it into numbers

its first strike buffed penetration is below 50% (depends on range but most times 41%) all other hits bounce around 4 out of 5 times

some mofos just don't realize (or they don't want to) that coh armor is not a equation of armor type alone but of weapons targeting it

i can break the weapon tables and let jeeps bouncing KT/Jagd shots 99% of time while they still get killed in notime by small arms

oh forget it i'm tired of you freakin trolls. None of you have made one concise argument on why the Jumbo is an issue other than "omg it bounces shots"

what you dont' get is that i'm actually willing to listen to your argument if you could actually prove anything but you haven't, all it sounds like is you don't like the fact that an allied tank bounces shots like many axis tanks do cuz you're not used to it.

As a majority allied player i've played against tanks bouncing my freakin shots, just soaking up damage for over 3 years and to finally get one that's not a pershing is nice and even then it's got an "alright" 75mm gun

Where were you when there were scores of Tiger companies being played huh? Oh wait, they're an axis unit and allies blob so omg, they NEED the Tiger, and you all have Tigers cuz of the Pershings, oh right :|

i Loved the fact that in the midst of the massive playing of tiger companies someone tried to nerf hvap, which is the one doc buff that could really combat the Tigers yet you saw no one creating threads about the Tiger. Its just crap

Tym if 10 people are telling you it's not ok, and you tell us it's ok. Wouldn't you think that problem is with you and not with us ?  

No one is trolling. You are not the center of EIRs attention that everyone here is to troll you. Specific thread is for specific reasons and that's all there is to this thread.

Ummm....

Tigers are balanced around being more powerful than a Pershing.

Lets take the most powerful Tiger; German Engineering, HEAT, Panzer Aces

Still loses to an HVAP Pershing, HVAP Pershing costs less, also vastly increases abilities of all your other tanks.

Makes it a much much better buff and makes your Armor company vastly superior to a dual T3 (which by design are supposed to be equal to a t3/t4; dont ask me why) Armor focused Blitz Coy.

HVAP is just one of the best T4's in the game, and is not situational at all.

I personally think that HVAP should go back to being a timer again. That version was a lot of fun, and required some more micro.

"alright"? the 75mm is by far the best main battle tank gun in COH
ok since some fucking around with stats in eir the 76mm is better because it got no drawbacks for its awesome improved penetration

no dude, when the majority of people who are saying i'm wrong are noted axis players, i dont count it at all.

You, ampm, and bigdick post in every freakin thread i post in, so yes you are freakin trolls.

 :o

look at the topic starter dude
 ::)

it's like with gwagen when in one thread tym said that free mg is fine and in other thread where he said that mg is ok for its price ;)

Tym... man... are you saying the reason there is only 4 vet 3 pershings is because they aren't survivable? That's... That's interesting...
There's so many factors which govern the number of high vet (is that better for you?) units - that trying to boil it down to a single one is shortsighted and dishonest.

You're also avoiding the point. PIVs do well and there's quite a few of them at vet 3 even though they have the same survivability as a sherman. If you're REALLY using your jumbos conservatively (nice ego trip bragging about how awesome your jumbo is. I'm sure you're quite proud of yourself for leveling a heavy tank that far with your "good/great" skill) then it won't be a stretch for you to micro regular shermans the same way.  

btw, you haven't given ME a concise, valid argument as to why you want Jumbos in infantry when they fit much better in armor. Mostly all your saying is "no, because I said so".

Every Ami company has had a counter to heavy tanks since the beginning of eir. It's called AP round 57s. If you haven't figured that out yet after all this time and STILL have trouble with heavies then you're beyond help. Tigers are NOT hard to counter.  

You avoided my question Tym.

Every time I see a Tiger I look like this:
(http://cdn0.knowyourmeme.com/system/icons/5365/original/aww%20yeah.JPG?1300314474)

P.S. Taking bets on how long till this pic gets removed.. Thoughts?

Infantry would love a heavier Breakthrough tank to break through opponents and push through the MGs and shite with infantry surrounding it. Think it as a churchill. Churchill is shit but it absords all the damage and firing and gets its job done (steel wall) while it clears out the MG for infantry to rush in. If armor were to get a HVAP Jumbo's I'd cry. OR HE Jumbo's in that matter. Plus Armor already gets the access to Calliope and Pershing. Calliope as Arty (See StuH42) Pershing as a Assault Tank (See Tiger). What would Jumbo do in there? What would be its role? Pershing is already doing its role as a steel wall and infantry support therefore making Jumbo Obsolete. Therefore Giving it to Airborne which relies more to infantry than tanks doesn't sound exactly optimal but having it in Infantry to give Infantry a unlock of a heavy class slow vehicle to support their basic infantry.  

Read back a bit. I talked about how Jumbo would fit in armor and wouldn't be OP. 33% extra penetration and 10% extra damage on a tank that has shit base stats against armor to begin with wouldn't make it OP. It'd make it only marginally better.

Tank reapers gives the jumbo 25% penetration which makes it only unreliable at killing tanks as opposed to straight bad. And HE wouldn't make it any scarier than a churchy croc *shudders*

Armor would make the jumbo perform its job better and become a force to be reckoned with, but that's ok. It wouldn't have tank reaper/heavy support/infantry doctrine's infantry buffs backing it up. It's that shit combined with a heavy tank that bring issues into the game. Not the heavy tank itself.

And if we're talking about infantry doctrine clearing MGs and surrounding infantry units, they have fire-up and the howitzer for that. It's not like they'd be totally gimped without the jumbo.

You do realize that Jumbo would be Obsolete in Armor? Sherman with 76mm is not only faster but performs better vs Armor than Jumbo ever would. Thus Jumbo fits to Infantry as a ANTI-INFANTRY platform that is its role, its not meant for armor combat. Infantry support tank vs Support weapons and other infantry based platforms.

Jumbo really doesn't make sense in armour, there are so many other tanks that do its job so much better.

Then it doesn't make sense at all

Nightrain, did you bother to read back at my older post? Some people might prefer having 4 jumbos with double repair and doctrine buffs as opposed to two pershings. Or they might prefer a mix of both. Maybe they'd rather have shermans that can take massive punishment rather than the lighter, weaker armored sherman. It would bring variety to armor.

Just because a tank is an anti-infantry tank doesn't mean it NEEDS to be in infantry. By your logic sherman crocodile MG T1 should be infantry. The crocodile is meant for anti-infantry/anti-support combat but it has buffs in armor doctrine. Tank reapers buffs units against tanks... by your logic it shouldn't be in infantry doctrine.

And spinn... The jumbo performs the anti-infantry job better than normal shermans and crocodiles. Just because it isn't anti armor and there's better anti-armor tanks doesn't mean it doesn't fit in the armor doctrine.

If jumbo is meant to be AI only,  delete Jumbo and give Jumbos armor and speed to flame croc, it will be usefull.

Or just give a flamer instead of the sherman gun to jumbo

Mal, by your logic Armor deserves everything that comes in a platform of a vehicle which really isn't the case. If armor gets both Jumbo's and pershings think about the hilarity of having them as a mix. First comes Jumbos then comes the Pershings. The thing is, it is already a powerful tank by its armor and it deserves to serve in the infantry as a infantry support vehicle. Wasn't the T3 called "Infantry Support" ? It is a Slow, fat Sherman with a 75mm, it rolls with moves as fast/slightly faster than a infantry squad. Eventually I must conclude that Sherman Jumbo is in its Rightful place with the Infantry as a support tank.

Plus the T1 Free MG is still retarded.

No, my logic since this began was that infantry doctrine doesn't need a HEAVY tank. A 105 sherman with regular sherman armor would fit better. But a heavy tank that can shrug off shots from the front just doesn't fit in infantry doctrine. And the name given to the unlock is irrelevant to this discussion. It has no bearing on what we're talking about.

I don't see how following jumbos with a pershing is any different than following a pershing with another pershing.

The T1 free mg is retarded, yes. You will get no argument there from me.

The only reason Jumbo pounces a lot of Shells its due to the Panther_skirts armor, if it was switched to Pershing/Churchill Armor there might be a good balance on it.

Jumbo originally was made for Infantry support, similar to the Tiger. Where does Armor need a Jumbo either way? So far what I've heard is that some would love to have a tank that pounces shells and ontop of it have nice ammount of buffs the Armor gives to the armor. However once you unlock the Pershing Jumbo becomes obsolete. I don't see it as a wise to give Armor a third armor unlock.

Infantry needs a heavy armor that can pounce shells to get rid of an MG42 or a PAK38. Armor already has the right vehicle called Pershing to do that thing. Infantry doesn't have a unit that can shrug off few anti tank gun shells and take out a MG.

Agree with Nightrain above, giving Inf a 105mm sherman with the same armor as a sherman would make such a tank a useless unlock.  It would be more expensive (unless it was a half-off sherman) and I wouldn't bother purchasing a redudant unit if I can take a regular sherman which would fill the exact same role... which is a weak medium tank that wouldn't be able to get rid of that very MG42 or pak.

If anything, having its armor reverted back to a Pershing/Church might be the better way, but other than that hte unit is sorely needed for Infantry to get their job done.  Armor already has the Pershing (which is an infinitely better 'jumbo' than the jumbo), the T17 armored car and the calliope... and given the already limit on vehicles due to fuel... the only way I could justify armor getting it is if the Jumbo became a T1 unit and the T17 became non-doctrinal to all US companies like the staghound.  There just isn't any conceivable reason for armor to get 4+ vehicle unlocks and not be able to actually use all their vehicles, plus their infantry unlocks on top of that (shotgun engineers that is). All US infantry gets 'unique' would be the ranger and howie, which is pretty sad for an infantry-focused company that can't rely on competant vehicles to back them up for mainline assault (which the jumbo, as a T3 unit, does quite well).  The jumbo is no 'tiger' or 'king tiger', and I find it pretty balanced in that it's strictly an AI support tank, and not a super tank like a pershing.  My 2 cents.

So because infantry doesn't have a heavy tank; they should get one? Commandos and Airborne don't have a heavy tank... why don't the devs throw one their way too?

Infantry does not NEED a heavy tank. So far no one here has been able to effectively argue otherwise. If you're having a hard time killing support weapons as infantry then you just might be hopeless. Fire-up and howies should suffice just fine. So far the only reasons I've heard for keeping it there essentially boil down to "It's easy mode. I don't really have to try. It can just shrug shots. Therefore it should stay".

Even though the unit itself isn't OP, the only thing the Jumbo does is skew infantry doctrines balance. In armor it wouldn't do so. It would add variety to the doctrine and provide a cheaper/more abundant alternative for people who don't want all their armor invested into 2 units. They would have more opportunities to get their money's worth AND it wouldn't be "obsolete". With the speed and repair buffs armor has, the Jumbo would be a beast. These are also points no one has effectively articulated a good response to.

If anything it would be cool if sherman jumbo was an unlock along with the calli.

Personally I don't see a problem with the jumbo in armor anyways, i also dont see the problem with the T1 that gives crocs an mg, i dont ever see anyone running crocs ever anyways.

but i think to help mals argument, at least from what i can tell, the infantry having the jumbo in a sense is comparable to if armor got some kind of elite infantry unlock. imagine a pershing having something along the lines of rangers backing it up.

As an armor player I'd totally take a jumbo, and depending on what T4 i went i'd have it take the place of my pershing most likely as well.

just thought i'd point this out for those who want churchill/pershing armor for jumbo, it actually makes the jumbo better vs axis weapons, all but the pak

not for stug, pak, tiger, shrek if it gets pershing armor
and not for almost everything if it gets churchill armor


you can't fool us we got axis to rgds too

har har

Infantry doctrine should never have got the Jumbo.

Jumbo is good for Infantry doc, it complements well with Tank Reapers. It enables a new playstyle/strategy. Good AI (jumbo) combined with good AT (TR). I play this and I like it, without the Jumbo I prolly wont be interested in TR at all.

Jumbo is fine, just that PaK38 sucks vs it.

and it should loose skirts me still dun like its free anti shrek buff.

Just whittle down its health bit by bit, isn't that what your supposed to do against heavy tanks?

Gah, I hate the damn jumbo, but i'll continue to use it until I get TR.
But then the company will only be three units, rifles w/ zooks, atg's and jumbos

It's the closest I can get to the good old days of rifles w/ zooks + callies :(

You make me sick, enkk.

Jumbo per game gets 20 inf kills and kills my IST :'(

When i got the jumbo i didnt like it at all. Not only did it moved slow. But turret was horrible. And its anti Inf wasnt that amazing. Lots of of axis armor had better anti inf. IMO.

And i didnt see much Anti armor damage improve or even matter with the TR ability.

And since we are talking about the jumbo unlock what about the GMC 75mm? Does that even kill anyone. It misses a moving target most of the time, doesnt shoot far, and when it hits a target NOTHING. No awesome splash damage, no fire on the ground, no pinned. Im having a hard time finding a good T3 unlock in inf. Maybe skip t3 and invest in t2s?