COH: Europe In Ruins

I know this is going to sound a little bitter..... but I am a little pissed off and feel a little mislead.
This is not the first time this point has been brought up, but it is the first time it has been brought up to represent a superiority type thingy....

I received a PM today:
Disclaimer: mild editing to ensure the anonymity of the sender

I am very open to getting map feedback from any individual who has played on the map being discussed. What really irks me with this post is the suggestion that Skaffa is superior in his map design skills.

Lets take a look at a couple of screen shot here:

Here is a good old CoH, 2v2 map - Semois

(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/Maps/relic00000_zps9bef1dd3.jpg)

Here is that same map with the water removed:

(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/Maps/relic00001_zpsda1ee658.jpg)

Here is the most played map in Eirr, designed by the implied master of map design - Skaffa

(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/Maps/relic00002_zps103dc1ae.jpg)

Of course, we all recognize that last image as Nueville. And we all know that every one stamps a bit of map here and there.
But no matter how you look at it, describe it, or analise it, that is an awesome map and just freaken awesome to play on.

But - how the hell could anyone claim Skaffa is superior in map design and that we should all ask his advice on how to map. What advice would I be asking for? I think I can get the same answers from Deadbolt to be fucking honest.

I am not criticizing skaffa and I am not criticizing the map. I just want people to stop suggesting Skaffa is the king of map knowledge and no map is worthy unless he designed it or gave it his blessing.

He played us like a piano!

Nah but it's hard to create something entirely new at high quality which you can sell to the unwashed masses.

Everyone who actually played this map in vcoh knew neuville was a waterless semois, but its sometimes better to let people preach on their soap (like wind) than to pop their bubble.

We're suppose to be friends here, aiiiiiiight?

Very important to READ my thread completely before posting here.

I was very careful to make sure I made it clear I have nothing against Skaffa, or the map.

I am pissed at the other people who claim he is the best map designer and you should always ask him for advice when making a map.

We should find the guy who made semois and hire him!

You sure about that? He thought all that water was such a good idea...  ;D

On a side note, did skaffa make any map from scratch that's currently in the rotation?

Not sure. He made forest, not sure if that is a stamp or not

Because his maps has a good proportion between buildings, cover, open fields and roads and also space on the sides of the map to allow for flanking.

These are criteria older 3v3 maps distinctively lack. This doesn't make them unplayable but they tend to cater to specific companies or playstyles as well as slow down the flow of gameplay.

I take Bocage as an obvious example of a map that favors artillery. This doesn't make it unplayable, it's still a good map. But if the enemy has artillery, it will be more powerful and difficult to counter than on Neuville.

Older maps tend to be simplistic or realistic. Neuville is all about the gameplay.

Pony, you have just proven you do not read, or you do not comprehend what you read.....

Skaffa does not have a map. He just removed the water from Semois. Look at the pics dude......LOL

He still added significant areas to the map using this formula. Semois without the water would still be unplayable. So his input is still very much excellent.

He also made Forest from scratch, which is an even better map.

Uhhh, I've heard more than once that the base of forest is basically another certain popular map rotated 90 degrees, Heard that one several times to ;)

Semois is a 1v1 map. Just sayin

Your comment is completely irrelevant and most people already knew that, just sayin' (you dick)

Ummmmm, Pony, are you high?

(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/Maps/relic00001_zpsda1ee658.jpg)

(http://i276.photobucket.com/albums/kk12/tank130/Maps/relic00002_zps103dc1ae.jpg)

One of these maps is Semois with the water turned off, the other map is Neuville. Could you point out one of the 'significant areas' you are referring to?

I'm talking about these areas of the map. Half of the map is essentially his own work.

(http://img43.imageshack.us/img43/8651/relic00001zpsda1ee658.jpg)

ROFLMAO..........

Tank, have you ever made a map from scratch?

Tank, have you ever scratched a map?.

Stop trolling

Tank is essentially right in his assessment that Skaffa isn't exactly the ultimate map guru like some people are making him out to be, though I honestly don't think making a thread about all this was really necessary :P. Stamping (large) parts of maps is an acceptable process for novice mappers that are either unable or unwilling to design a map from scratch, the mark of a true and quality mapper however is indeed that he can create multiple maps from scratch, all of equal high quality and all attaining equally high popularity. OMG's Spartan is a good example of this in my opinion and arguably one of the few mappers in the (former) EIR/OMG that can truly be called a leading example.

I honestly don't care that neuville is essentially semois, even a 5-year old could have successfully made a conversion the way skaffa did. What matters though is that he ended up doing it at least and gave the community another fun map to play. Deadbolt also just stamps entire maps, no one will claim he is a good mapper but none the less I greatly value some of his contributions. (And the simple fact that he is putting time in providing us with new maps) I don't know if skaffa truly made forest from scratch, if he did then kudos for that is indeed an excellent map as well. I wouldn't go so far as to call him a map expert either, someone who has only made three maps of which the 2 popular ones only one is really made by him can't really be considered a map expert just yet.

/thread

He wasn't just randomly saying Semois is a 1v1 map rofl. He pointed out tanks mistake, dumbo, which makes it completely relevant.

Tanks mistake was completely irrelevant, most of us know it's a 1v1 map, but it doesn't really matter for this discussion so why bring it up? Clearly, only to be a dick about it.

Saying I 'just removed the water' is just naive.

Your view might be limited to that aspect of the map but atleast some people look beyond and realise there is more to it (pony).

Ill do some map reviews to share my thoughts!

quit nit picking skaffa, he said it's a great map and laid no fault on you for doing what you did.

so can we stop the petty arguing about something that means absolutely nothing in the long run.

Actually Tym, what he said is: 'Great guy, great map, but no special design.. he just removed the water!... look at the pics!! ....and people say he has superior map design skills, I cant believe it... look at the pics ROFLMAO .... LOL.'

There are 2 design parts.
1 is my overal formula/philosofy described in my guide. (in my head before starting the map)
2 is the map itself - using stamps vs creating new stuff. In the case of Neuville leaving some parts untouched but also adding new stuff in order to make 1 work.

I thought about what I wanted and did everything with a purpose - with a design - in mind. Some people realise this, some dont. That is why saying its 'just a stamp' or 'just removed water' is imo naive. They only look at part 2 and forego part 1. Even when only looking at part 2 it is shortsighted to not acknowledge the fact that everything that was added was added properly (as in enough cover, enough room to move around - things that you do not find in all maps), and is the reason why the map is good. Plus the things that werent added! Many other houses could have been added, or hedgerows/shotblockers which would have ruined the map. By saying 'just stamped Semois' or 'just removed the water' you also forego these aforementioned aspects of part 2.

Well, either way, stamping and modifying an existing map is a lot easier than making a map from scratch. That's not to say it's bad, it's an excellent way for people to learn the ins and outs of mapping and quite honestly as long as the final product is good and enjoyable, we shouldn't care all too much HOW it was created. Though there lies the difference imo between a map contributor and a mapping expert. Deadbolt is the former, he no doubt still puts quite a bit of time in devising maps, and he pays a great deal of attention to the layout of the maps so that he only delivers the maps that would normally work for EIR, as such map contributors too are very important to our mapping scene and no doubt have quite a bit of knowledge when it comes to what defines a good map.

Mapping experts on the other hand, like spartan, take it a little further and are able to devise a quality map from scratch, also giving them much more control over a map's overall design and ultimately its gameplay. As such, they are the real artists and experts of the mapping community and should be regarded as such.

We need both and both types of 'mappers' are knowledgeable in the field of map design, though one is clearly the expert (provided they've created a significant number of quality maps from scratch) where as the other is less so.

that's his opinion, you trying to rebuff him only ends in an argument, no one wins when two people are expressing there opinion.

I understand it may have hurt your pride but who cares, you make maps that people play, ALOT, so keep doing what you're doing and don't give a fuck about what Tank said.

True.
Maybe my explanation can enlighten some people tho.

Actually Tym, What irks me, is exactly what I posted on a few occasions in the last few days. My issues are not with Skaffa or his maps.

My issue is with a small percentage of people in this community that imply Skaffa is the only person who can make a good map. - or your map sucks if it does not follow Skaffatology.

Skaffa took a great map, stamped it, added a couple of fields to enlarge it, and called it Nueville. What Skaffa deserves credit for is figuring out a way to describe what made the original map a great map to play on. He successfully put wordy descriptions into a simple diagram.

He did not invent the best map, he just simply labeled an existing one. I am not discrediting the physical work he did or the fact that he made a contribution to the map list. I am discrediting the claims he came up with the best map design.

This will never become a Skaffa vs Tank situation unless he chooses to do so. I really doubt that is going to happen.

Where is EIRRMOD? maybe hes got some sort of mapping advice, or is he still on a his 2 week vacation?

We have had semois in the EIR map rotation before, it was quite a fail. He did not "simply" labeled one existing map, he understands every single part a good map needs. One part of that was the center town and that is the stamped semois.

Skaffa's other maps are good as well :L. i enjoy forest and that other circular thingy one as well.

Actually you are (again: see tank130's previous posts) by saying the physical work I did merely exists of 'adding a couple of fields to enlarge it'.



Basically what Tank is saying is that I merely deserve credit for 'writing the guide' (while disregarding the 2 upcoming points). This point of view is understandable if you do not comprehend the full situation.

So to further enlighten you Ill tell you what I deserve credit for. Ill explain it to you personally.
Until you get the full picture I can imagine it is hard to understand why someone would send you that PM seen in the OP.

2 things:



This is the best I can explain the situation to you. Maybe now you can understand better why people say what they say.

Also I needed to say this because its tiresome to read about the ignorance all the time, which leads to not giving proper credit and recognition.

/thread

What DID you add to the map to make it better?

You had to add something to make it bigger. It was a 1v1 map converted to a 3v3, so of course you had to add something.

Looking at the pictures I posted (screen shot of both maps) you can see you added some fields and removed the water and bridges over that water.

Could you elaborate more on the important features you added that made Nueville a better map then Semois please. It is hard to see what it is you did.

I think it is silly to say what makes your map better then semois is the things "you did not add" . That would be like me saying Skaffa's map is great, but he could have added something to ruin it. Not really much on an argument really.......LOL


I can appreciate that you set out with a design in mind and were going to take the steps necessary to follow that design. I find it a tad coincidental that Semois just happen to be that exact design but missing some fields......

But, by giving detail on what you added will help clear that up.

He added heavy cover near buildings to allow for both defending and attacking buildings. This way if an enemy puts an unsupport HMG in a building, you don't need a mortar, you can flank it and the enemy has to support his HMG. By not placing heavy cover to block open fields, it's possible to advance easier. Light cover is also well placed, there is enough to make it strategic, but placed with enough space to make it a defensive position, while still having enough open field to allow for the building of sandbags.

He placed buildings. With enough space so that units can pass through but close enough to each other so that you can use buildings to distract or kill enemy units in other buildings.

He added roads. To supplement the map where it was missing and around the buildings so that vehicles can counter units in buildings but also to allow the buildings to be used as cover for vehicles. He also added roads to the flanks to encourage flanking.

Even if he just did 10% of the map and that 10% is good, that still show that he knows what he's doing.


If someone spends a year building a map and it sucks, then I really don't think that guy is a better map builder than someone who sees a finished vCOH map and thinks "this has all the gameplay elements a map should have, with some minor adjustment it can be added to EIR".

The maps that Deadbolt chooses to stamp, usually have terrible flaws. Graveyard is one big open field. That's just not gonna work.

So if 10% of map is good, that means a person knows what he is doing....right, got it. Or in other words.... if you stamp 90% of someone else's maps, add a road or two, you are the best mapper to grace the screens of Eir


I asked Skaffa to show us what he DID add.
What you have described Pony, is what the map has, not what he added.

Please look at the pics. He added one small road and 2 buildings....... If I missed something, I would like the map creator to explain it, not someone who doesn't have a clue as to what was there before or not.

It's more than one road and two buildings, Tank. His input includes all the things I described. Fields, buildings, cover and roads.

Everyone knew Neuville was based on Semois. But Semois is not a good map, it has water everywhere and small passages. Only with Skaffa's input was it made playable in EIR. It's not easy to take any 1v1 COH map and make it into a 3v3 map for EIR. You should know that, with D-Day.

These are the facts: Skaffa made two good maps. This makes him a good map creator. Whether he did it on purpose or not, doesn't matter. The end results is what matters.

This doesn't mean that new maps have look exactly like them. But they do have some design features that clearly benefit gameplay and should be considered when making a new map.

Good maps, yes. Superior map design: no. His guide is absolutely no guarantee for success, heck he only has 2 maps that supposedly follow it and while they both happen to be great, it doesn't mean though that he somehow hit the holy grail of map design that now every map needs to live up to. Ultimately people should make maps whatever way they feel will work, keeping into account the typical flow of an EIR game (which does indeed include heavy fighting around the center of the map, but that's only common sense). There's no precise formula to what will ensure a map's popularity, this is clearly proven by the variety in popular EIR maps throughout its history. (Yes, there are certainly some core similarities but it would be faulty to claim that these maps are not distinctly different from one another in regards to overall design)

I think we're done here, there's not much point to 'debating' this further. I honestly don't think there was much point in having an entire thread dedicated to it tbh :P

And as always, keep these maps coming, it ultimately doesn't matter how they come to exist, as long as we can keep a healthy inflow of maps for the community to enjoy.