COH: Europe In Ruins

Here is a replay from a half completed game cause of desync. My internet was laggy.

#1499

BARS are underpriced and needs a price increase. Observe that the allied units had very little vet against a very well vetted army. Combined Arms and all.

Take note there were very little volks as well in this entire game.

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BARs price is perfect right now.  The problem is that Axis went so long without having to really worry about bars (because they were way to expensive) that you guys forgot how to counter them correctly.  When you do this again, Bars will be less effective. 

i agree with draygon, hopefully eirrmod will understand the balance of having more Bars vrs less.

interesting arguments .. raise bars, lower volks.. mmmm

I would note that this war has changed attacking sides more regularly then any of the previous ones under the same attack/defend formula.

might be something actually balanced there?

Yea, I agree with you completely...

Changing tides of battle proves nothing.

You have to look into the QUALITY of the players playing on each side. Unless you can tell me there is an EQUAL distribution of skilled players on both sides, it proves nothing.

And if you want to say that this war is better, the territories are now heavily in allies favour. There is a difference of 420 Territories, under the old conventional 900 territory system, this places the axis at 240. This means that the axis faction appears to be DISADVANTAGED!!!

But that isn't true.

BAR price is not perfect. It was cheap enough for me not to think about its effect. I could have it often enough and it stopped one complete charge and won a few other small skirmishes. That charge could have won them the game.

I only activated suppressing fire on one rifleman ONLY. You can check the replay. I distinctively remembered activating one only. I apologise if I'm wrong. And it suppressed the whole crowd.

While BAR is effective, I don't deny that and it is needed to a certain extent, it should not be so freely available. Push up 75 munitions to 85 or 90.

And BARs were perhaps just SLIGHTLY overpriced previously. I used them often enough and they are good. If you think that one rifleman with BAR suppressing a whole blob of vet 2 & 1 grenadiers and that the frequency of BARs on the field are so high... and that this is fine then I have nothing to say.

BAR's are not that overpriced. They have that one time suppression (basically, who ever gets to use it the 2nd time?) and if you drop a BAR and pick it up later,  you dont get that anymore. LMG? Even if it takes a few seconds, you can still use suppression after it being dropped. I wish the axis would stop whining about BAR's for godsakes, its the only good thing we've got. I've seen where you put Mp40's on all volks and just rush them, lmg's and schrecks on grens. Please, as effective as schrecks are, i seriously think they need a price raise because they pwn my tanks.

BARs are ok, the allies are so limited in the upgrades we get and you allies keep wanting to take them away from us. Leave the allies alone for god sakes. We're already at a disadvantage and now we're actually doing well and I keep hearing all these complaints because you lose some vet. Well...how dou think i feel when i lose a vet 2 .30 cal in a house to a rocket from a nebel getting a lucky shot or heat seekign schrecks following my tanks once i run out of range or gettin pak sniped on my at guns and i cant even fire back because of the accuracy imbalance. Anyway, there's way more things wrong with axis stuff than allied.

Bars are underpriced.

teh suppression effect of the bars is a different matter sadly, I think we can all agree on that one.

The allied infantry NEED bars to compete.  It has been proven enough times that without it the allies are mince.  It is the bread and butter of their ability to compete, that and their vet adding dmg, with the german superior weapon choices.

The sad truth is, unless the bar suppression was removed and bought as an activated use, it comes as a package deal, and the allies NEED the bars to be able to balanced, hence global upgardes vrs individual upgrades in vanilla.

totally agree. There's a reason why the bar and sticky are global in vcoh vs indiviual schrecks and lmg's even for the PE and with mp44. Their weapons are better. Leave my allies alone!!! just because we can actually win games now doesn't mean you change stuff.

gotta remember in vanilla tym, you have a cost associated to use the bar suppression, which really isn't represented here.

Poor perspective for balance discussion...

Thank you for your insightful and extremely meaningful contribution.

The contribute:

As it stands, BARS should either go two ways:

Slight 5-10 mun increase, MAYBE decrease suppression recharge.

Keep the Prices the same, add a 10 mun purchasable ability for a 2 use suppression fire, 1 minute recharge.

MasonDonn has the best view of BARs.
Even though I'm more of an allied player, I must agree allies ARE overpowered, with airborne being underpowered(armor skirts on vet 2 tanks make RRs cry).
That would be all.

Mason i just dont want to writte up another list of obvious things, already busy in to many other thread, so I just quickly post my opionion and left.

You know what I find funniest? Im an allied player, and I have the best view on BARs. Maybe its because since we use them, we have a good idea on how well they work, and how they should be balanced. Thats why i recommend all future people who cry NERF to use that tank/unit/upgrade for a few games, and see how you would balance it according to that.

10 mun 2 uses of supression?? lol i think everybody would buy it on all his riflemen with bars, i think that bars shouldnt have the supression ability its too unbalancing, axis dont have anything like it, and its allows a riflemen squad to kill a grens or even KHC squad easily.

axis mgs shouldn't suppress like they do, the allies have nothing like it..

kinda faulty argument don't you think?

Did you even read the rest of the thread?

Allies NEED the suppression ability to stand much of a chance against the axis.

i'm not answering u salan, because its your first time playing coh, or u just want to make this topic useless.

and manson dog i've readed the rest of the thread, but let me tell you that saying the same things once and again dont make it true, allies dont need that suppresion ability, just dont use riflemen against everything.

What do you want me to use? Engineers?

Red, how about this: Go play allies. Go play for about 5 games, then  see how fucked we are without BARs. Dont use rifles against everything? Rifles are the only non-doctrine VIABLE infantry unit we have. Rangers are meh against infantry unless they have tommy's, and AB need nades and vet.

Or Raid Assault.

 ;D


As biased as this discussion is already, we should include doctrines ;)
Add the Grief.
!

Grief +1

to say i agree or, thinks like that or salan did, i think u shouldn't post, but anyway for your information, rangers with smg DESTROY axis infatry, u can also use mortars, crocodiles, cal.30, and yes engeniers with flamethrowers are great agaist KHC but if u dont want it its ur problem, oh and also u can use grenades.

And riflemen with bars, without supression, can kill volsk very easily and are a good enemy agaist grens, ok they cant kill KHC but they are a little cheaper dont u think?

I'm new here, I know nothing, red is right. ;)

I'm going to restate my suggestion from the Phase One Balancing thread:

- Rifle BAR changed as follows:  Suppression Fire is changed to a three-minute cooldown.  When the Rifle squad comes on, Suppression Fire is ON COOLDOWN.  This means that the Rifle squad would have three minutes before it could use SF for the first time.  This helps balance out the low Munition price of the BAR, but keeps the SF ability widely available.

its probably the best fix.

Yes, with SMGs they own. But SMGS are 180 mun, on top of the rangers 90 mun cost.
Mortars?
Need LOS, easily sniped/counter-mortared, need to actually KNOW where they are
Crocs?
PAKs, shrecks, fausts, More crocs = less tanks
30 cal?
Shitty supression, mortared, sniped
Flamer engies?
Supressed almost instantly by anything, killed extremely quickly
Nades?
That squad is going to die/retreat, not to mention they need to be suppressed for a decent effect or they will move.


What your describing are specialized units. So, as allies, we should only use specialized counters, and not general units?

Also, tbh, you shouldnt tell us to stop posting. You should stop posting.  Your not thinking too well into this.

I agree with stumpster.

Mason, the game was full.....

I disagree with everything RedDevil says X-D

So you think that infatry with abbility to supress is the only think that allies can do against axis, ok i've nothing more to say here.
Just one thing i say to stop posting only to thoose who were spamming or saying stupid questions

Devil, If I cant explain it to you, noone can.

Well, basicly in most cases, suppresion is followed quickly by death/retreat, I'm not saying it's perfectly balanced as is, but taking away the ability to suppress completely would be imo a bit over...

BARs do not need any rebalancing whatsoever.  They have some advantages over axis, but suppression fire is easily countered by spreading units.  Other than suppression, Bars are clearly inferior.

BAR's are not over priced.  they are one of the few advantages that allies have and it make rifle relatively usefull.  Bars allow rifle to counter KCH amd LMG's and if you complain about the supression then just spread your infantry out and it wont be all that effective

BAR suppresion does not work in an area, it works on a squad that's being fired upon.

RedDevil, for someone who's joined like 2 weeks ago you sure got a cheek for calling someone who even organised a persistant TOURNAMENT(with a seperate website and everything) and was a sole balancer of this mod a noob...
In other words - you're an idiot, go die!

QFT Myst-

He wasn't alone in that, nor did he come up with it.

/rage.
 :P

Organisation =/= single handed bringing up. :).
It was rather universaly acknowledged as Salan's tournament, though.

[/quote]
BAR suppresion does not work in an area, it works on a squad that's being fired upon.

RedDevil, for someone who's joined like 2 weeks ago you sure got a cheek for calling someone who even organised a persistant TOURNAMENT(with a seperate website and everything) and was a sole balancer of this mod a noob...
In other words - you're an idiot, go die!
[/quote]

first, ¿what the hell makes u think u know anything about me?
second, u should read before post, since I didnt called anybody noob  ;)
And i know that suppression, doesnt work in area, but i just think that suppressing , killing a KHC squad its just too much for a riflemen squad, just because they have BARs

They wont kill it on their own, they will just supress them.
Killing pinned troops is certainly hard, and only supressed KCH will still rip a riflesquad.
Also it's mostly a 1 use ability(long cd).
KCH can kill all the time.
I think 80 munitions is also a little low for a grenadiersquad to kill riflesquads with only 1 man left.

And they are referring to this:

Salan set up a failed Tournament, the TLS roleplay campaign, and was sole balancer of this mod for several weeks.

maybe BAR rifle vs kch, they won't win. I'll give u the benefit of the doubt. BUT.

2 KCH vs 3 Rifles + 2 BARS, the riflemen will DEFINTELY win.

Pop Comparison: 12 vs 15, okay slight difference in 3 pop cap here, but the riflemen will win with barely any loss so this is discounted.
Price Comparison: 640MP + 200 Muni (correct me if I'm wrong, but I NEVER buy KCH.) vs 600MP + 150 Muni. Clear winner here is the Riflemen for being cost effective and staying on the field.

Both unvetted, both without any doctrine ability boost.

Even a Storm with MP44 will be better than a KCH if the Munition price of its MP44 was revised down.

lol, ¿1 grenadier with lmg can kill a riflesquad?   :-X
And Salan's experience on TLS eir or whatever doesnt make he's opinions true, or that question he did usefull, that's just a fallacy (dont sure if that's teh word)

It possible, but it has to be a vetted gren with LMG and you must have ZEAL and in GREEN COVER to be able to slaughter scores of riflemen.

While I don't discount the possibility of this happening, I like to say it is a very very very isolated scenario.

that is all true but then dont rush you KCH into a group of BAR rifles there are other ways to deal with rifle's and if your stupid enough to rush then your KCH deserve to die.

Run in, set up HMG in the back, run back, kch get supressed, but rifles can not close in, kch saved, ability wasted.
Sure, an enemy 30.cal would make it easier for the rifles aswell, but it's a difference.

@ PzGren:

I saw 1 single lmg grenadier with zeal standing in yellow cover(crater) slaughter entire riflesquads charging at him. 2 in a row, not at a time, I have to admit.

And I had a vet 1 grenadier in yellow cover , supervised by an officer, killing 2 riflesquads together, charging at him, 1 with bar.
The single grenadier (accidentially used the squad to recrew a mortar) went up from around 20 to 63 experience in that game, with around 20 confirmed infantry kills.
Btw, Grenadiers can build covering sandbags everywhere on the map at any time without doctrines, Riflemen need the infantry doctrine for that.

So it all depends on the situation, BARs are versaitle, stronger than LMGs at point blank range, and have a devasting Suppression fire ability.
LMGs are stationary, but fire long bursts that do reasonable damage to infantry at all ranges, can supress with intensity, zeal, insprired assault or vet 3 (combine them :D)
and don't lose firepower until the last man dies.

That's a huge benefit, you can stay behind your sandbags (that you should build everywhere as axis) and blast of at charging squads.
Same with volks against Rifles, but I did quit participating in that discussion.

Actually it seems to me that allied infantry fights better in the open, charging at closes range, with no cover between them, while their mobile, rather weak tanks belong to city roads.. weird.

Sorry, that was truely offtopic.

Yes ulimited u get the idea :)

My scores of dead riflemen disagree :P

"but rifles can not close in"

Jeez to bad you cant right click, I mean shit now it all makes sense ...

Good you read everything before you make your comments  ;)
Vollhonk...

I said something about the MG42 in the back, you know?
Oh, you don't?
Game over, read again.

Actually, combined arms won it for the Allies there. Instead of just using pure KCH, the Allied player used a combination of SF from the BARs and then proceeded to force the KCH to retreat with the unupgraded Riflemen squad. So instead of the Axis player using 2 KCH squad and charging them at BARs, they could have used a MG42 to suppress the Riflemen and then move in for the kill with the KCH.

It seems people have forgotten that combined arms doesn't mean using multiple different units. It also applies to using weapons upgrade. Another example is SF + a Grenade/Offmap Howitzer/Sherman Crab Flail.

and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop.

Barely and only at close range or with vet 3.

+Terror CP ablity, at best.


Wildfire... Please try to get your facts straight. We sure appriciate that you take part in the balance discussions, but a bit more overview woud help.

If you have multiple LMGs you can get suppressed quite quickly. (I think the LMG suppresses in a small area, doesn't it?)

no its not terror. I just played a game where I got suppressed by 2 lmg squads on a blitz player. If you combine the lmg with any other type of mg be it on a tank, or even coaxial you get suppressed quite easily. I am getting my facts straight, I'm going from game play experience.

Also, lmg's are superior to bars in the fact that once you drop a bar, you lose the suppression ability yet lmgs can still suppress infantry.

and since some of you lovely people love your freakin stats, here.

ok, the suppression of the lmg is .0015 long, .003 med and .006 short but the nearby suppression multiplier is .75 (radius is 12) so that means that the more lmg's you have around, the suppression rate goes up.

bar is .25 & 2 by comparison.

the suppression modifer is x10 so pu tthat with .002 .0035 & .0075 on the bar by itself and you get

.02 L
.035 M
.075 S

but with lmgs it doesnt only take into account the lmg and any other lmgs but all other mguns that deal suppresion as well, including coaxial, .50 cal on tanks, .50 hmg, and even other guns and you could easily even with just a bunch of infantry squads and one or two lmg's get a god suppression going and pin a rifle squad easy, which is what has happened to me.

BAR's are good where they are, for god sakes, the allies only get 1 gun upgrade for their infantry, the axis can have mp40's and lmg's, then you have the fact that yhou can buy fausts on volks and double schrecks on grenchs, the awesomeness of kch  and other stuff I wont go into here.

the fact is, 75mu is just fine for the bar. I rately have more than 10 in a company and even that is stretching it. Right now I think i have about 8-10 not sure.

I"ve also seen of late axis players learing how to counter bar suppression so obviously its not that big of a pwn gun because sometimes i activate it and they run out of range b4 i can suppress and with the long cool down and the decrease in accuracy vs the fact the lmg can suppress and lose no accuracy or damage that its dealing and its obvious the bar is inferior.

leave my freakin bar alone.

I just want to know one thing and this shoudl easily fix it. You see a bar and an lmg on the ground next to each other and you've got one slot on your infantry unit (and no others around to pick the other up as well)  which will you choose, the LMG or the BAR? I'm sure the majorityu of you will pick the LMG, why? Because it's still useful even after dropped, the BAR loses its main feature once dropped.

same thing with bazooka and schreck. The axis inf weapons are better than the allies point blank and we all know that, so i wish you freakin axis players would quit bitchin about allied weapons when we get one freakin thing thats better than you. You've got your damn tanks, your infantry, the pak , better suppression on the hmg, your mortars do more damage and have longer range, your damn rocket artillery can randomly take down a freakin building in one lucky ass shot killing all inside (have lost 2 vet 2 hmgs to a single rocket in full health buildings in 2 diff games)

leave the allied stuff along, we're already suffering.

oh and thtb if u did'nt realize it, wildfire = krazytym = tymathee.

Fallacy fallacy fallacy.

MG42 are not a mobile platform. Mg42 cannot pick up weapons. Mg42 can suppress but needs to set up.

I'm using a simple head on scenario which happens rather often.

Its easier to micro 3 rifles + 2 bars anyway compared to KCH + MG42.

I had an airborne squad in light cover get suppressed by 2 LMGs firing at it at medium range within 2-3 seconds and within 5 it was down to 2man :).
BARs are inferior to the LMG(as a weapon overall), I quite believe that it's quite balanced right now.

MG42s take around 2 seconds to setup, so they are ready to fire before the bar supression has any effect.
They have high enough range to set up behind enemy line of sight, and pwn the rifles when they try to close in to kill kch.
Microing 3 rifles is easy, but the possibilities you have with them are very limited, despite their upgrades.
1 unit, one counter.

to the axis: as pointed out above LMG's are better then BARs so stop compaining!!

I dont see any urgend need to balance the bar by anything more than 5 ammo up or down, they dont seem like something "game winning" to me

Our dear... balancer ... needs... some time.... and then more. Lets dont waste it on 2end priority things.

to have the same supression than than a BAR using it's ability with LMGs u need 13,33 LMGs , u need 8 to have the same effect than a MG42 or a Cal.30

thx  8)

afaik, suppression fire is supposed to suppress

Now let's do a reverse calculation.
How many BARs with activated supression fire do we need to do the same damage as an lmg.
Oh, and btw, supressed is supressed, and that is after 2 bursts.
How much that really is doesn't count.

of course, i havent sayed that the bar hurts more ¿did I?  ???  , i just read some post saying thign like "and freakin lmg's still suppress without an ability, so stop." "If you have multiple LMGs you can get suppressed quite quickly." or coaxials also supress.. i just used my calculator

The point in that post was:
With 2 lmgs you can suppress anytime, and not only when you activate an ability.

So your argument is:

The Axis main hand held damage dealer weapon does more damage then the Allys Main suppresing weapon?

*Clap Clap*

ok, maybe u are right but i dont think 2 lmgs can supress anythign stroger than engeniers, i mean panther and P4 have 2 mgs (coaxial and hull) with the same values of supression at long and medium range, and i havent seen them supressing anything

LMGs suppress moderately quickly. Thats the main reason why I hate fighting them without BARs, or tanks. Also, anything could cough in the direction of engies and they would get suppressed.

In a 3v3, there will be situations where you're facing at least 3 LMGs if not more. That really adds up unless you have an MG to hold them off...

Seeing that almost 1 third (if not more) of players is terror, zeal and intensity will really bolster the lmgs supression to the point were it can supress riflesquads at medium range in 6 seconds.Actually, the Bar squad will deal more damage at short range, but for some reaswon, lmg squads turn out superior.

Basically, which I'm sure you didn't note as you always fail to see my point, I was saying that comparing the Bars supression with SF to LMGs is just like comparing the LMGs damage to Bars with SF.

It's questionable and doesn't forward the discussion.

ok, i guess someone people were too lazy to read my post. LMG's have a suppression area that if you have any other unit that has suppresion they get a .75 bonus to what they've already got, that includes the gun that's already on the gren, any other lmg etc as long as its within a 12 radius area and that's pretty big.  That's why 2 lmg's can suppress so easily, also, they dont get accuracy and damage penalties attached to it so you can suppress and still damage.

also, if you  axis are so fussy over it, do like thtb said and add 5 ammo to it to make it 80 i coudl give a damn but anything over that people stop using bars

I'm going to swoop in and post some statistical information all of this can be found on COH-stats.com

First off let's compare damage between the two. BAR does 7/LMG does 5
So the BAR deals more damage? Yes, in theory.

Time to factor in additional information:
LMG burst duration is 2-1/BAR burst duration is 1.25-0.75=That means that the LMG roughly fires for about 3/4 longer then a BAR squad.
Rate of fire for the LMG is: 15-15/ BAR RoF is 7-7. So that means that in two seconds an LMG will dispense of 30 bullets and in 1.25 seconds a BAR will dispense 8.75 bullets
They both have a similar reload frequency so they will repeat this cycle at most 8 times before having to reload.
LMG cooldown is 3.5 BAR is 2.0

So lets add these up and show the difference in damage done by these two weapons.

Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 seconds,Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Reload for 6.5 seconds. So in a total of 39 seconds before reloading the drum the LMG will have fired 240 bullets, each bullet doing 5 damage for a total of 1,200 damage if everyone hits.

BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Reload or 3.5 seconds. So in 24 seconds the BAR will fire 168 bullets and deal 1,176 damage if everyone hit.

Of course not everyone would hit so lets factor in an engagement from medium distance:
LMG M accuracy: .3x240=72 bullets hitting their target x 5= 360 damage at medium range.
BAR M accuracy: .45x168=75.6 bullets hitting their target x 7= 525 damage at medium range.

Remember that this is assuming the target is shot at at the same distance for anywhere between 39-24 seconds with no cover.

You can further expand this by applying the accuracy incremental which would make the numbers look like this:
LMG M accuracy: .3x1.05^6~0.4x240=96 bullets hitting x 5=480 damage
BAR M accuracy: .45x1.02^4~0.49x168~82 bullets hitting x 7=574 damage

Now take those revised numbers and multiply the damage by .75
480x.75=360 damage for an LMG in a span of 39(s) *against Riflemen*
574x.75=430.5 damage for a BAR in a span of 24(s) *against Grens*
However I don't see this as a practical engagement so lets do these numbers for a span of 10s

LMG: Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5 sec, Fire for 2 seconds, Cooldown 3.5. Bullets fired=60
BAR: Fire for 1.25, Cooldown 2.0, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown 2.0 seconds, Fire for 1.25 seconds, Cooldown for 2.0 seconds, plus a lil extra for .25 seconds. Bullets fired~26

Accuracy incremental: 0.4x60=24 bullets hitting for LMG/ 0.49x26=12 bullets hitting for BAR
base damage x 0.75= 5x0.75=3.75 damage per bullet for LMG/ 7x0.75=5.25 damage for a BAR

Totals: 3.75x24=90 damage in 10s for LMG/5.25x12=63 damage in 10s

So overall the BAR may deal more damage if it fires for the full 24 seconds however the rifle squad will be non-existent. That is where the LMG has the edge short engagements where it excels at. As for suppression the BAR base suppression is only .0005 higher then an LMG. Without SF a BAR would only have an edge against regular troops. This is one of the main reasons why I like LMGs over BARs. Sure they can suppress but when they are suppressing they are not killing, and their whole suppression ability is null if you are in heavy cover. Not to mention LMGs have 5 more range then a BAR, get better the more riflemen it faces (accuracy incremental is per man..), and at short range an LMG lands 75% of its 30 round burst. So guys, please stop bitching about the BAR, right now it is fine, it adds a little bit of fire power and if you aren't a retard only 1 squad at max will get suppressed and die/retreat as long as you don't blob. Don't blame the game if you are having 4 squads all blobbed together suppressed and run off the field.

The above post is me...Bodybag...

And tym brings up a good point about the Nearby Supp. Multiplier. Basically the more LMGs you have firing at something the more nearby (men or squads, I don't know, I think squads) get suppressed. Range of that is 12 which is pretty big too.

nice post jellybag!

Remember that you don't need to do the same amount of suppression as a BAR to suppress, the BAR SF is an OD amount of suppression to nullify any outside conflicts.


Yeah, I need to go write a 3 page essay now.....

It's also easier to micro 2 squads of KCH than it is to micro 3 squads of Riflemen when two of them have BARs. So what? You have completely missed the point of my post which was merely stating the fact that the American player outmicroed the Axis player with the BAR Riflemen and regular Riflemen. So if the American player used better tactics, superior micro, and the appropiate counters, shouldn't they be rewarded with the KCH being forced to retreat?

Micro... thats like 4 clicks if you dont use shortcuts xD

Shortcuts are overrated.

Always depends, some of us like unk0wn are hardcore players that can easly perform 5 mouse actions per secound.

Others are more FPS focused where the combination of the keyboard + mouse is needed witch they then can apply to RTS.

I do both, and still fail occasionally.

Really, microing 3 riflemen squads with bars and probably grenades is harder that 1 kch and 1 mg42.

Erm, good post but you forgot one critical thing

Whenever you talk about the BAR, you have to multiply your final results by 2, you ran up the numbers as 1 LMG vs. 1 BAR - but under no circumstances will you ever see a squad of riflemen walk on the field with any number of BARs besides 0 or 2 - the BAR upgrade gives 2 weapons.

So

*Math* + *More Math* = Bar op?

i dunno about that, but the math is incorrect in its posted form

I'll revise with 2 BARs.

NEWSFLASH :
GRENADIERS HAVE MOAR HEALTH THAN RIFLES.
Also, I'm pretty sure BARs do NOT have accuracy incremenetal.

1.02 incremental accuracy for BARs compared to 1.05 for the LMG42.

means 1.3 lmg vs. riflemen, 1.08 for Bars against Grens

Talk about short sighted...

Though about those facts:

Grens cost accordingly more.
Grens have less squad members (do i have to explain what that means?)

I still agree with stumpster's suggestion, that's the only change BARs need imo.

Don't axis infantry heal over time with vet 1 or so? (Even if only a little)

yep.

Yea BARs are too cheap.

I have bars on almost all riflemen on armor company.

But i dont wanna go back to bars costing like 100.

Something like 85 will be nice.

Bars are fine just the way they are!!! For crying out loud!!!!

Add some ketten goliaths plz

I like how we are just locking necro'ed topics now. I went for the lock button and was like "oh, someone beat me to it. Good job you handsome mod." ;)