COH: Europe In Ruins

They dont want discussion in their thread, so I'll oblige, and make my own thread to talk about it cuz I feel we need good dialogue on this issue.

I agree on some of these but some of this stuff makes the T4's not T4's anymore, but T2's or T3's.

The T4 is supposed to be pretty amazing and a game changer if you have one.

One thing that I've always had an issue with concerning T4's, is that the infantry company is the only one where you can't get a T4 right off the bat with 50 cp's. Hell, even what some feel is the weakest T4 in the game, Cohesion (no one uses, thats why i say that) takes 56 cp to get to, stacked 54, reapers, 55, Arty Expertise 51.

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What it is now isn't much, it's only 1 second, it's not really a big deal and the spread is so high that it doesn't always hit what you aim at anyway. It's still a crap shoot


Effects to 25%, no. Health is no big deal to me, you can take that away but to put it down to 25% will just make it a low level upgrade and not be the tank killer that it's supposed to be. The axis have a lot of stuff that can wtf pwn tanks and the allies get one and you want to decrease it by 50%? Come on give me a break. Anyone that's ever been pwned by a cloaked pak with a supervising offer and fatherland defense on it knows what I mean. The allies need something with tank killing power and this is the only thing we get, other than that, the allies need to try and use major micro and high numbers to take out axis armor. Just yesterday, i had to use 4 rangers just to try and take out a tiger and almost got them all killed and hell, in the process, it still took out a sherman.

How about this? 70% penetration, 25% damage, 25% health on at guns and you 50% penetration and 25% damage on zooks? What this basically does is make it so that AT guns become what they are with the ap rounds upgrade without having to buy it, and zooks can actually penetrate front armor, sometimes, which is more times than hardly ever.

That's fine but then it wouldn't really be air superiority then...

why, it's only 50%? and it's only for 100s. The first time they use it, you'll know they've got it and you could avoid it from then on. bring out lmg's, kch, flame wagons, ostwinds etc and no problem.

Ok, so they only get 2 total? that's not very powerful, and the effect is only 4 total, so if you're playing 2v2, maybe one person gets them all, maybe 3/1, maybe 2/2. No change needed here, it's a T4, it's supposed to be wtfhepwnedme

yea it's powerful but at 40% it's supposed to be powerful. Maybe 25%, 30%? You dont really see a lot of people get this, most people get the other 3 as they're more powerful.

The allies can get up to a total of 35% off their infantry with 3 t3's, 20% on a t3 for rifles and rangers and 15% on support teams. So, to decrease the cost to 10% makes this a T2.

-T4 artillery is instant kill. Enough said.
-I think I speak for most of the axis players. Tank reapers is off the charts insane. It ruin the axis's main advantage of heavy armour entirely. One single T4 reducing the effectiveness of an entire faction's ability to attack is broken.

-Air supriority:
Let me show you this mathamatically from a team strategy that Myself, Louis and chubba had.
3x Air Superiority:
18 Recons/ 15 Strafes/ 12 Bombs

-Subversion:
Personally, I would like this whole Tree re-worked. But we all know its not gonna happen. again. Team strat, 3 x Subversion ruins games. I mean, I paid the points cost for the unit. Why am I being denied it? Especially true with very high cost units ie. Rangers/Pershings
 
-I agree with you on Tenacious faith.

-Omniscience even at 30% is too much. When two bikes deny the opposition any opportunity to surprise or flank a position, its not fun.


T4s are supposed to be good and making your company effective, but when it ruins gameplay its wrong. In my opinion i see no reason why T4s should remain as "awesome" as it used to be.

Primarily because:

1) it was designed for the Old Eir when CPs truely needed to be earned. IE, you start with no CPs and you earned your T4 through the war (Which was shorter. This free 50 start CP kills that concept, especially since you can T4s so much sooner.
2) It shouldn't totally change how the game is played; thats how imbalance issues occurs.

Correct me if I'm wrong but from what I've seen from OMG this issue is acknowledged and I've yet to see Tier abilities that drastically increase damage output or unit cost the way EIR T4s do.

lol? t4's ruin gameplay? it increses you ability to do stuff based on whatever it buffs,? and tenacious faith is a big mistake leave that tree as it is its based on better vet infantry and lower costs

t4 arty does not guarantee an instant kill on anything.  Ive seen mortars and pak guns escape it unscratched.     It does however work great on blobbers.

in the current climate of cheap lmgs, low mp and common armor skirts, nerfing raid assault seems harsh.

t4 arty isn't insta kill, Maybe on infantry yeah but you know what, in war, you dont see artillery coming, the enemy doesn't drop smoke, you hear it coming. With the smoke and 3 seconds and the fact that the artillery goes longer, it would be a wasted ability, Maybe you kill that church that you wouldnt' before, but that isnt' that much of a bonus.

and im guessing you're an axis player by your name. Play as allies vs cloaked pak guns. All you need is two placed in the right position and any allied armor that tries to get through that area will get pwned because 1. they're cloaked 2. they have hold fire, so basically one can fire, make you try and go around it and then the 2nd will kill you.
Tank reapers doesn't neutralize axis armor, you can still circle strafe it or get away from it the same as before. i'd rather have a regular pak personally than a TR AT gun personally. Just more you can do with it, like pak snipe other at g uns, 88's, sneak up on an artillery unit and kill it, cloak and wait until a tank passes and hit it in the butt, etc. Reapers still gets screwed up by the at guns bad accuracy.

to the 50cps, this was added because if new players come in and start from 0 cp's, they're at a serious imbalance say vs a guy who had 100 cp's from playing the last 3 months. I don't even have a Tier 4, I had 2 tier 3's and am working on a 4 and i'm 6-5, it's not totally needed but once you get it, you can be pretty tough. If you notice, wh en you get a T4, your name changes from just "infantry division" to "blah blah divison" meaning, you specialize. Yeah some of them are really powerful, but that's what makes working for them worth it. If you make some of them too weak because you feel they're too powerful, then you lose the thrill of getting one.

I get really upset when teh allied abilities that make us competitive get questioned because we are actually doing well now. Yeah some of them need to be changed and tweaked, and eirrmod is in the process of doing so but i just hope he doesn't do so cuz of whiners (not calling you one) but because it's needed.

I agree and fucking axis mortar's can insta kill 2-3 rifle squads or a whole house with heavy support.

I'm not sure you understand how the heavy support T4 works.  Dare I say, you shouldn't comment on things you don't understand.

How is it hard to understand how heavy support works?
It increases range, hitpoints and sight.

I think subversion would be better off just delaying those troops for 30 minutes.
And Tenacious Faith should be reduced to 25%.

But not really much, they are quite balanced.

Tank reapers is boring, I would like something along the lines of:
+20% accuracy and damage on Bazookas and ATGs.
AP rounds (ATG and HMG) are 50% more potent and last 50% longer.
ATGs (gun only) gain +100% Hitpoints.

Something that encourages skill.
I think omniscience isn't at all too strong.
And Air superiority might be a little powerful, maybe reducing it by one Bombing run might be fair, but not more.
As you invest 52 cps in those offmaps.

I've been playing both sides of the war for a year now.
My other username is nated0g. Online Profile PinkTiger.

I know exactly what its like on both sides of the argument. I dont mean to be rude, but I agree with commander newbie that it doesn't sound like you're heavily experienced on the way the axis play and the balance issues. Some of the things you mention are very situational and pendant on player skill.

The proposed changes are mentioned so that the game can be enjoyable for players of ALL levels and give your army more flavour. Advanced players can still use the T4 to their full advantage but not at the cost of newer/less-advanvced gamer's enjoyment.

Agreed with Tym on all accounts, except heavy support does not have any effect on damage, its T3 does an extra 20% though. Axis mortaers can WTF if vet 3, advanced munitions, and officer supervision, yeah, but I for one have never seen that...ever.

 Terror has a T2 called german will that decreases all inf mp costs by 8%, so his saying TF would be like a T2 is quite accurate. That would bwe a very shitty T4.

Nerf Raid assault? LMG's are so cheap now it has become a tactic for people to go Weapon surplus, get 25 grens, and put an LMG on every one. You can do it for exactly 2k munitions, and probably have extra from RB's...and I'm about to play a game, continue this later, maybe

I thought a list of all effects of t4s might be useful for this discussion.

Here are my thoughts.
Terror: I like Unlimited's idea of making sabatoged units turn up 30 minutes late
Maybe there should be a decrease in the health buff for heavy support - its quite large.

Defensive: Maybe remove omniscience from vehicles? would stop people complaing about bikes seeing the whole map but would still be useful on infantry.
I'm not sure why the cooldown on rocket artillary is so tiny, maybe increase it a little bit to be more in line with the infantry artillery.
I think tenacious faith is fine as it is, should only ne dropped by 5% or so if anything.
Fatherland defense, should be removed from vehicles and tanks, but maybe increase it to 25%/35% or 25%/40%.

Blitz: Nothing seems too out of place here

Infantry: Tank reapers I think we can agree needs some attention (I don't know what though).
Artillery expertise could do with some way of making it good agoinst blobs but escapable by small things - some form of suppression effect on large quantities of units close together?

Airborne:Raid assault might need a small tone down (shorter duration?)
Aerial brothers seems a bit on the weak side compared to things such as tenacious faith, maybe it should be extended to airborne at guns and/or upped a bit
Air superiority might need a strafe or bomb removed.

Armor:On-Board mechanics is quite good, does it need toning down?
Superior command is a bit powerful at the moment (as shown by what happened when it was the same cost as other t4s) probably should be nerfed a bit.

All I can say is that most of the changes stated in the OP are blatantly retarded.
Tenacious faith is fine, needs not be nerfed. I mean, wow, just how dangerous is volks spamming? I'd seriously rather pick up rocket artilery or extra health on everything.
Tank Reapers - just nerf it to 40-50, not 25. Compare it to a well known Terror ability tree, and you find out why.
Air supperiority - sure it owns on RTC, but on a 3v3 map like ango? You ever tried strafing something on that? takes a lot of skill, luck, and praying your enemy won't notice it coming. Needs no change.
Raid assault is fine as is. Easily counterable by KCH/LMGs, and with only 8k manpower you can only get ever so much airborne.
Subversion - change it into 30 min delay, but not nerf it into 3 squads.
Omniscience - already underused as is, why should you make it do absolutely diddly shit? Wow, your motorcycle will see half a stug length worth farther, how would that be worth a T4?
To those who say "omg, three players air sup/subversion" - everything should be balanced to how effective it is in actuality, not when in a stacked team of gimmicks.

Ferocity: This pretty much blows. It's useless.
Heavy Support: I don't know if the sight is really necessary. It's a good t4 though. Not OP.
Subversion: I hate that this is in the same tree as KT. They have very little synergy. It's a good t4 though.
German Steel: Pimp.

Omniscience: Hey let's have a slightly more useful ability than Scouting, only it'll be a t4! Buff plz.
Rocket Arty: Awesome beyond recognition. Could use a sliiiight cooldown increase.
Tenacious Faith: T4s that reduce costs are kinda lame. Useful, but lame.
Fatherland Defense: As pimp as German Steel.

Weapons Surplus: Same as Tenacious Faith.
HEAT: Neat. 15% pen is stupid I think. Stugs are beat since they cost so much now and everything else will already tear Sherman armor.
Conviction: Awesome. Balanced.
Lightning War: The coolest goddamn T4. This is what a t4 needs to look like. Global, useful effects.

Stacked: See Tenacious Faith. Useless IMO especially because of BARs being so cheap already. I buy full SMGs without Stacked, grenades stupid blah blah.
Tank Reapers: Godly, but a stupid T4. Opposite of global =(
Cohesion: Fuck you haters who think this is bad. I could rape with this in my current inf build.

Airborne Elite: The no drift seals the deal here. Without that this t4 is iffy.
Raid Assault: Rape, but I'd like to see more utility. I guess you can't have everything.
Aerial Brothers: I don't like it. People think Airborne are all Airborne has as a doctrine.
Air Superiority: Magic; the ultimate utility. I remember taking names waaay back with this. Airborne is NOT just about Eagles.

I've never played Armor, but I can speculate:
On-Board: Awesome. I have seen it used well.
Next-Gen: Retarded. Change this to something unretarded.
Calliope: Stupid stupid stupid. T4s that affect one unit are dumb. This one is even dumber.
Superior Command: Good, but it should be dumbed down and made into this tree's t3. T4 should be something more significant.

I think I always proposed a different doctrine system, but I won't link it here.
I'm also of the oppinion that E will fix this in a different way anyways, hopefully at the end of the war (plz. give axis some more territories, maybe 200?); So this will be moot anyways.

But I'll rate the doctrines out of my way.

1. I agree cost reducing T4s are kinda stupid.

2.  :

Ferocity: Awesome ability, works great on snipers, strenghtens Volks and PAKs, allows single shrecks to kill Tanks in seconds.
But it's true strengh is it stacks with zeal, an ability overpowered for a T2.
Limited use, though.
Heavy Support: Could use less HP bonus, awesome T4 otherwise, if used right.
Subversion: pure grief, not a nice ability. Should be delay only.
German Steel:

Omniscience: Potentially very powerful, but requires teamplay and depends on the enemy tactics.
Rocket Artillery: too short cooldown, a nice T4 otherwise
Tenacious Faith: Too strong, 25% would be sufficient
Fatherland Defense:
Weapon Surplus: Allows for cheap MP40s and makes StGs actually viable. Boring, though.
HEAT rounds: Allows P4s and Tigers to effectively bash away Infantry. Useful allround T4.
Conviction: Nice, usebased ability, slightly skilldependant, very useful
Lightning War: A great ability with certain uses, balanced through it's lack of combat bonuses.

Infantry
Stacked: Boring, see Weapon Surplus.
Tank Reapers: Awesome and beyond, epic to the point of annoyance. Imba.
Cohesion: The most underestimated tier ability ever.
Artillery Expertise: Too strong with the short timer, but a nice addition.

Airborne
Airborne: Elite No drift.
Raid Assault: In my oppinion too strong and short, not skill dependant. Not imbalanced, though.
Aerial Brothers: Actually the best cost reducing T4, should affect ABATGs, though.
Encourages spamming.
Air Superiority: Very powerful. Too many offmaps in total, but an entire tree deserves that epicness.

Armor
On-Board Mechanics: Annoying, overpowered. Should only work in friendly territory outside of combat.
Next Generation vehicles: Rather weak compared to onboards, it has it's uses.
Increases Tank DPS...
Dual Rocket Racks: Fine ability, strong, but counterable.
Superior Command: Suffers from the corresponding T3, stacking of both makes it overpowered.

Keep tank reapers the same, I never loose a game as allied because of it.

I WANT OP!!!

tank reapers are weak , buff them to 100% !

I second that. :p

They should be able to wtfpwn a panther from the front with one shot!

not that they already can wtf 2 shot a stug from the frontal armor

Tank reapers is a joke vs volk spam

me, chubba and nate always get challenged in our opinion every war about allies opness, whatever the origin of it, the fact that every war we come up with a lame gay combination of ass rape that always uses the allies broken t4's should be an indication that something is wrong...we have yet to pull something off as lame with axis.

we all prefer playing axis...and look at this, the discussion goes is circles...and nothing gets done again...shock surprise....

with axis you see most of the t4's used, they are all reasonably balanced with one another, there is one that is obviously not, which is subversion, which was very very heavily used last war i played in, has declined to rear is ugly head this war, which im happy about.
but when i play axis, i see a handful of t4's used on the allied side..and its not due to a lack of options.

air superiority. - cant imagine why with only 7 artillery strikes...and 5 recons.
onboard mechanics- repair bunkers for the allies...not bad on a sherman, esp when its much harder for axis to counter this with much poorer off map, no airborne and no suicidal m10s.
duel rocket racks-honestly dont know why this one is so popular, its alright, but calliope is retardedly under priced anyways, i guess i would use, but i see no balance issue with it. just the calliope in general, for its current cost and popcap.
Tank Reapers- axis Armour superiority- joke? axis infantry? 75munition bars..with cheap rifles with super vet...axis arty rofl? this one company can curtail an axis team.

The example was already given, 3x subversion for example.
Just hope not to play vs. 3 times epic rifle spam ;). Oh, a lame allied tactic ;)
Axis don't offer many lame tactics compared to allies, but enough strong combos.
A 2 men Zeal DoubleLMG squad, supervised, can kill an entire 25 pop rifleblob in like 3 bursts.

me and n8 already done the mass rifle thing, never got round to a tripple subversion...i dont even think it would be funny like the allies is. meh, i heard eir development was happening again, but i aint seen any positive changes or anything yet. number tuning couldn't be that hard could it? it would go a long way to balancing some of those stupid t4's.
laugh as those 2 man squads get either a) sniper b) pwnt by sherman/croc of doom lolololol c) suppressed by bars d) entirely wiped out along with the officer by the calliope/ strafing run/infantry off map.

and donnie, whats the the torrent of allied love from you? its like you desperatly like using some of the t4's of something  ;D

I have to agree Tank reapers is a little bit OP but i think reducing by 50% is a little drastic.  It is still A t4 and should be good and the fact it only affect ATG's is sort of a balancer.  maby a 10-15 percent decrease in its affect would be good.

Believe me, if that rifleblob has 2 bar squads in it, they will still die before the grenadiers are pinned.
Also:
You won't waste a calliope barage on a single Gren squad.

E isnt numbertuning, as far as we  are informed it's gonna be a full doctrine rework and adding of the OF factions in the near future.

Somewhat 2.0 without complete recoding..

oh i agree, some of the numbers put forward are indeed off. but the general concepts, what do you think of them?

for example, AS, its 7 arty strikes, axis have tier 3's that give 2 fucking usless or close enough fire storms. or the DEADLY V1....seriously...

so allies are undisputed masters of artillery....thats impossible to stop btw, there is no counter.

axis advantage? Armour and support weapons? both have allied t4's DESIGNED to counter these.... and they have more than 1, tank reapers is the most obvious, but there are so many allied t4's that counter axis strengths.

where as a lot of axis t4s are very unimpressive.

for example conviction, its a good t4, i think it is very effective. however it doesn't possess any of the raw potential for abuse, that the allied t4's posses. which me, n8 and many others have proven time and time again.
another example, heavy support. its good, its effective, its completely countered by several of the allied t4's, made almost redundant. ontop of this crocs destroy this tactic if used properly.

i agree with PPLA, tank reapers should be about 35-45% i think, not the25% that n8 said. but thats just numbers, they are easy to tweak.


on the other hand, we could take the doctrine approcah, If everything is OP then everything is balanced. if we buff the weaker t4's to equal the power of abilities like AS and tank reapers, i would be content. but we need suggestions, and to replace subversion, which is fundamentally broken.

Not at all fundamentally, just replace permanently by 30 minutes delay (or 20-40 depending on game size) and it's a nice balanced T4.

What is heavy support countered by?
The entire tree combined denies even Raid Assault, HS paks can kill TR ATGs for their superior Range, and Intensity in the Same Doctrine will allow dual HMGs to supress fired up troops (and kill them).

Keep in mind Air Superiority takes a total of 52 cps, Rocket Arty also grants you Stukas and stronger Nebels before. And 88s.

Axis got stronger units, allies got stronger artillery.
Axis got overall better doctrines, Allies got better T4s.

And there will likely not happen anything as we don't know how doctrines will look in the near future.
Hopefully it's not the
'2 trees with 7 tiers' system...

Hm, don't feel like debating on any of the other people's decision atm so I'll just post what I see that is out of whack.

1) Tank Reapers - Change it to something else or spread the buffs
2) Cohesion - Essentially pointless, I've never had trouble fighting Cohesion players
3) Heavy Support - Health buff puts it over the top; this T4 should improve on the support weapons but not weaken/remove soft counters to them such as Grenades or small arms fire (Ie. Rifle squad in green cover vs MG42)
4) Subversion - Very lame ability; the whole concept of sabotage is stupid
5) NGV - It just doesn't live up to a T4 status.
6) Air Superiority is fine, but it's the fact that you essentially have a T1, T2, T3, and T4 stacked together.
That's all I can think of atm.

ive been running a HS compnay with intensity, ive never ever seen it surpress anything that has fire up on it, crocs destroy it when used with scouting/recon. howies end this t4 compeltly, as does dropping airborne with satchels. anyone that can flank with rifles can do alright against this t4. the health buffs? mgs still go down to nades half the time, and still get roasted by crocs. calliopes...just quit if you have gone HS...you have no chance.

I've ran a HS company for three wars though I didn't play much on one. MG42 can and will suppress Fire-Up troops, ask Pengu for the math. It has been done several times and the 50% health buff means it's very difficult to dislodge a MG nest and combine that with the vet 1 health regen, the MG42 can recuperate rather quickly. Ask any veteran player and they'll tell you that it's generally accepted upon that it takes two Grenades to dislodge HS HMGs.

Crocs < Double Pak + Mines or the Triple Pak variation.

Howies are actually the least effective arty against HS. Calliopes and Aerial Offmaps are way more dangerious to it. With the Howitzers, you just need to learn to relocate everytime it's near barrage time.

Satchels take 5 seconds to detonate; there is no excuse on why you can't dodge that unless your opponent is distracting you else where to draw your attention away. Then it's your opponent being smart and using tactics if that were to happen.

Mortar "Barrage" ability is not effected by the HS range increase, however, the regular attack/attack ground abilities do have their range increased.

Removing the health buff and it'll be a fine T4. I could see adding a little bit of something else to help compensate for the health buff lost, maybe something along the lines of more sight range or something.

double pak or tripple pak combo? thats so unviable on so many levels....just pray the croc comes the way you want? thats a great plan...dodge satchels, yea your right it can be done. ive seen the best players of eir get hit by them though...and you can only bring so many support weapons.
arguing one of the least used t4's need nerfing is stupid.

Yes, it's so unviable that the top HS player only had a 95%+ win rate. Also, you have THREE Pak Guns, why are they all facing the wrong way? If that's happening, then you obviously need to reevaluate your tactical knowhow.

Double Pak is also the MOST versatile starting group. Watch a few of the better replays and you'll notice that many Axis players choose to start with double Paks. Since Paks take up 4 pop, they actually take less pop than double schreck squads. A few actually go with Triple Paks if they've worked things out with their teammate. How is it unviable if it's the most versatile AT formation?

Also, HS was probably the MOST popular T4 in the past several wars. In fact, it was probably the most common T4 during TLS. About one out of four players I played duing TLS were HS. 25% is definitely not least used.

who was this player? and snarks...ive played plenty of games thanks...maybe i need to go back to my old account, i dont seem to be getting recognized very well. if you start with 2 pak guns, im gonna laugh when hey get strafed, callied or off mapped, or the croc just runs past with field repairs....i did take i hiatus during the tls, but for the 4 wars before that i never saw more than 5 HS players, in all those wars together.  btw, is snarks = minehold?

I didn't play during TLS, but I followed the events of it. Heavy support was incredibly rampant during that campaign and for a short while following. It was popularized by Pengu at the time (that is the player he was referring to), who fought many 2v2's with Chaos (Tenacious Faith) back then.

The 2 T4's worked very well together and Made for a very effective infantry spam backed up by super support weapon spam.

Snarks is ThetaCommander, and he's spot-on.  Heavy Support was used quite a bit during TLS and afterwards, it's a great T4.

The problem with the doctrine system itself is that there are abilities that counter other abilities.

wini, you're obviously not backing your units up if you keep having these things happen to you but at the same time, you have to expect certain things to happen, it's rare that your pak will live for more than 5-10 minutes because the allied players usually want to take it out so they can move their armor in, thats' when you bring out your armor, double schrecks, pak guns, etc.

as for HS. I've played many a game where i've had an mg in a building and it totally kills it, or a rocket from a stuka or nebel hits the eroof and takes out the whole house or everyone in it. You'll never have that happen with a howitzer just because of the way it lands. HS is a very powerful T4 and probably just as powerful as tank reapers since the HS tree affects snipers as well. If you've got an HS company play with a omniscience company, it's just rape.

and who was it that said that omniscience is like scouting? no it's not, scouting only affect jeeps, omni affects all units, so you dont have to have bikes, all units get more sight, which means, your tank can see my tank before i see yours. Or your infantry can see my infantry, your pak can snipe my tank, etc. that one stug's length of sight is a huge advantage, especially if you're playing defense.

-if you say so, clearly we have had differing experiences. though ive played my fair share of games too btw.

you can never assume perfect conditions, such as playing with an omni player. realistically speaking its generally the worst case scenario that arises.

and im not arguing that HS is up or anything, but i would say its probably in the medium or sweet spot for t4 balance. its what the other t4's should be balanced too imo.

but you cant balance all T4's really because some people are better with certain t4's than other people. Like me, i'm wicked with T4 arty but someone else might not know how to use it right. Some people are really good with TR cuz they can micro their at guns good, while someone else who can't micro at guns would do poorly. I think it's nearly impossible to balance all t4's personally. You'd have to rework the doctrine s ystem.

Hell, even in vcoh, all the top doctrine abilities aren't evened out, some are more useful than others.

you have a good point with tank reapers, but its a level of skill that the majority of the community poses. the ability to click, for strafe and infantry offmap is almost none.
subversion...well...yea

not really. Yeah, it's easy to click but the anticipatino is something that you learn and also when to use it is something you have to learn. I was g ood enough with t4 arty to take out tanks with it, and half health tigers.

as for at guns, there are some that are bad at microing at guns and some who are really good. I'd rate myself as adequate, but i've seen some people who are really really good.

First, the unimportant.
I've played with HS last war, and I can assure you it kicks ass.
In the old system, I had a company with 10 HMGs, 4 PAKs, a mortar (or was it 2?) and one or 2 snipers.
I still had enough to buy a half dozen volks, some bikes and a Panther.
It worked, but thats entirely NOT the way that T4 is to play, it's to play as always, but have stronger support with it.
The higher range, damage and suppression on HMGs makes them largely more efficient, sniping is easy because your range is so high the enemy player will have to come into decloak range of your frontline troops to countersnipe.
And with inspired assault 2 PAKs will take that croc out even with field repairs, and to be sure, bring some mines or a schrecksquad.

To the topic: On bigger maps it requires an enourmous amount of skill to hit with strafings and bombings vs. good players.
I've once got a P4, Mortar, HMG, a damaged volkssquad and a Flametrack and reduced a Grensquad to 1 man with a Bombing run, but thats around 95% of kills I've ever achieved with it, and it's 20% of uses.
It's quite easy to miss with a bombingrun.

The only T4s that require a high amount of skill are the ones that are use based or have a high cooldown.
Ferocity for example, it can be incredibly powerful, just you could activate it at the wrong time and not have it when you need it.
Now some players, me included, prefer to not use it at all, because there could be a situation where it would be needed more.

HS was OP back when HMGs were more viable than other infantry. Now it's balanced because HMGs are relatively expensive again.

I played HS, was boring.

I dont like hs - not enough shit blowing up.

= Make mortars fire nebel shells

YEAH!! Eat Shit wini!!!!