COH: Europe In Ruins

Calliope is in badly need of a nerf. This is beyond discussion. Every player I talk to admit either unwillingly or bastantly exclaim that its extremely powerful. Although I dont think its really neccessary, I will just shortly state why the calli is damn OP because this is related to the nerf it HAS to get.

9 POP (LOLOLOL)
Can take way more shots than any other arty piece
Faster than everything except the stuka (arty)
Hits fuckign everything, damages everything, enormous spread makes targeting a click-n-laugh

I try sending panthers after it, my storms die to support around it etc.. we all know its fucking hilarious to try to counter it, its just a joke everythign you try to kill it when a good player or team protects it. And every time I ask the calli player how he would counter it I get some "duuuh...." or "you just shoot it with shrek" type of answer. -.- I ask killer, I ask schultz.. I ask everyone. But nobody has a counter that doesnt involve any of these:

1) calli player being a noob
2) calli player being lazy
3) massacre of your own units to get it
4) insane rushes
5) luck

So.. I personally think raising to 12 pop, reducing its ability to take more than 3 shrek/faust hits or affecting its speed could be the way to go. Pop is a must at any rate to reduce the insane amount of support spam the same player wielding the calli can have. This is not much, barely reducing one mg team or at gun around the static position which the calli is always defended by.

Another way to make it more ineffecient, would be to severely increase the recharge or disallow veterancy to affect recharge. This might sound very special, but the calli is also very special as it breaks all the rules of countering that the other artillery abide by.

Must happen:
Popcap increase (12?)

One or more alternative:
- Increase recharge (I think this is not the way to go, cause when it is not countered it should be good)
- Nerf vet (vet adds no rockets, vet affects recharge very modestly) - also too much
- Nerf survivability (armor, hp) - yes please
- Nerf speed - yes please

Another thing I just thought of, what if the calliope needed to lock down and remain static around 10 seconds after it fired. This is a severe nerf, but its also a extremely overpowered unit which any dumbass can use to grotesque effectivity atm.

We should aim to nerf it in a way that makes it possible to counter without throwing half your company at it, because the difficulty of countering it is what makes it so overpowered not the damage or amount of rockets atm. It should still be good at breaking up pakspam and overlapping mgs, but you should be able to counter the damn thing if you send the correct counters. Currently I feel there are no paper to the calliope rock.

I dont agree with you much smokaz but in this case....you got a point. Sadly but true maybe the allies need a "op" unit lol

The Calliope is actually 10 pop.

I agree that the pop should be raised to 11.

Wiki:

The weapon's maximum range was shorter than desired, and it could only reach that range if the tank was angled upwards on a slope. The launcher was connected to the main gun, using it to traverse the launcher up and down, so the gun couldn't fire until the launcher was ejected. Reloading was a laborious process, and the tank crews required significant retraining to act as competent artillery.

How will 1 pop alone make it easier to counter?  >:(

I think its self-evident why the calli needs to be the same pop as the hummel or the priest

first of all: the calli is so OP because of the amount of units ppl waste to kill it.

in my opinion it needs a survivability and a speed nerf and its vet is tooo good compared to other units - why does arty units get speed buff at vet1 ?!

why not do what I did whwen I played against a player with a callie? if you got pe, wait 'til it fired, hit it with a LAT HT, which will cripple it, and then it's speed is cut down and its easy to kill, which i did on its next barrage.

also some people forget to realize that its best to sit in one spot if the callie is firing at you, moving just cause you to get hit more.

One problem I see is often people will attack the calli at random times, if you want to make an effective attack, wait til the very moment you hear it firing, then move in. Also pak sniping can get a cheap shot or two on it.

If you want to take away it's current vet, what would you replace it with?

It's pop cap could be raised to 12. I dont think it needs to be frozen for X amount of time after it fires, because no other arty piece does that, unless you include hummel, which is at the other end of the spectrum, the worst arty piece in the game.

I think it's speed decrease would be good, only if you got the speed back through vet, making it easier to kill before it gets vet. But I've seen grens keep pace with the calli with it's current speed, so it would be incredibly easy for them to kill callis if it got a speed decrease.

An armor decrease would help balance, but wouldn't make much sense, why should it have less health then an other sherman?



Oh, one good counter is P4 rushing the calli, I rarely see this fail, 2 P4s do very well. Or a sniper and some stugs, sniper decrews AT guns right before an assault.

lol "some stugs"

just try thus cool plan out ;)

@ Riki

Balance != Sense/realism.. it doesnt make sense that howie bounces p4 shots either but it happens, or that a huge ass rocket rack on top of a tank takes more than 1 shrek or tank hit to completely disables..  and when the calli is firing, I am trying to dodge or do other stuff as well. So its not some grand opening in the defense to KO the calli.

As for being frozen, tons of other arty is frozen permanently and nobody complains about 25 pounders, howitzers etc. Also veterancy should not reinstate the problem the calli had in the beginning. I guess to some people the Hummel is weak because it can be countered, but a natural downside of the artillery should always be that you actually have to protect it.

Talking about engine damage as a precursor to pwning it is kinda stupid .. how does suciding a unit to engine damage it help at all? In the game we just had, the calli was engine damaged by nebels .. did it in any way do anything for my ability to counter it? No sir.

Also, please explain more in depth how rushing 24 pop of tanks to kill a cally is balanced. This is exactly the king of proposals people come with other than the enigmatic "sneak in 300 munitions of shreks kamikaze it" which HELP prove the point that its almost impossible to counter for cost.

I actually thing the Hummel-Priest are great units to balance the calliope against.. they are both high damage motorized artillery. Why should the calli be any better than either of these units?

Its simple.  Pop cost should match the hummel/priest, and reduce the hp to 400(same as hummel/priest).

There, done.  Sherman armor doesnt really matter anyways, since shreks hardly ever bounce off it.

just mod and make one in an M10 chassie and then give it hummel speed.....oh wait thats a hummel ROFL

Calli need a nerf, i couldnt agree more. At least its speed and pop..

Yes, its schultz, caught between accounts.

The Cali A nerf? 

A unit thats eats pop cap for 4 mins while it does nothing?  So if there is one on the field early game, thats 30% of the mans army in pop cap in 1 unit that can;t do a damn thing? 

Right now, without duel rocket racks, the cali is a glorified motar. 

It gets blocked by hedgs, and buildings, alongwith the back side of hills..... 

How abpout this, Don;t blob, cali countered.

All a calli does is provide blob control, but most of the time it provides not much mroe then a counter to the axis motar.

No maps have an infinite number of houses or hedges, a good calli player will not fire on such a target.. (destroyed houses will not block) and having a pak covering a mg is hardly blobbing.. its combined arms. Nobody clams that the calli should stop being a blob counter or not punish people that have their units tightly grouped.. or its damage reduced. 

The main argument is that even if you are lucky enough to somehow ambush the calli, it will escape damaged to repair or just throttle out of there. But maybe the majority of us are all missing some kind of secret counter to it like the 24 pop double P4 rush? In fact I think armor needs the calli very much to break up tight pak/88 positions camping when doctrinal powers and sherman support stuff is implemented because they have no fireup.. but again, this is not the point. The point is that its not counterable for cost or by the same rules that OTHER arty in the game is..

hmm good point on everything, though, I don't know what the dmaged engine thing had to do with anything.

in reference to the damaged engine thing i didnt say anything about damaged engine. though when I thought about the P4s, i was thinking resource wise not pop wise, so you make more sense then I did (well in all your counter arguments) .

I'm starting to think, maybe the problem with the calli isn't how vulnerable it is, maybe it's how much people protect it, you said there is always an MG or 2 AT guns guarding it, how often is a howie guarded like that.


I'm trying to come up with something that would properly nerf it, but it truly is such a different unit, hmm gotta think outside the box.


and i have a problem with balance vs realism, it's not even realism in a sense, but my mind is pretty one track in thinking something  :P

It's more than reasonable that the calli's pop needs to match the Hummel and the Priest.  The other complaints are a little overblown I think. 

Calliope is easy to keep alive.

Fire rockets, move back to spawn. No good player will risk sending units after it, it's a suicide mission which often doesn't pay off. You send two P4's after my calliope, unfortunately for you I sit there with 2 ATG's and an M10 and I did this recently also. The calliope is so survivable that you can simply protect it with a few units and rape anything that comes after it. A panther came for it, instantly the calliope made back it's cost, that's without the 40 infantry kills, 3 tank and 4 light vehicle kills it had also.

I've used it a lot, it's massively OP. You barely have to try when using it, it's the perfect counter to everything they have and when fighting PE it's even easier because nothing they have withstands a calliope barrage from close range, except a panther and p4  IST.

Set pop = 12
Increase cooldown by 20 seconds
Reduce speed by .5 units

There we go, pretty balanced in my book.

Have I been the only one with a vet 3 calli?

Personally I think it needs a huge nerf to its vet bonuses... Not really the unit itself.
-At vet 0 and vet 1 it's pretty lame.
-At vet 2 when it gets it's 20% damage increase and -30s cooldown it gets stronger, you definitely see a change in it's ability to level the playing field.
-At vet 3 when it gets +10 range(stupid) and another -30s to cooldown.. you're looking at a refire rate of 110s.

(Suggestions without knowledge of upcoming doctrine abilities.)
The calli has never needed more damage.. it's still perfectly capable of performing its duties as a disruptive force. At most the calli should get -15s at vet 2 and 3 totaling -30s.

The calliope is a must... as puddin' put it.. it's a glorified mortar. And most games you'll see it get as many kills as most axis mortars. But the majority of axis players fail to see that all the calliope does is even the playing field, it's not a win button. Yes it's a little bit too strong when its vet starts accumulating. You're looking at what? 50-60dmg per rocket at vet 0? So 60-72dmg at vet 2? That's a little harsh considering the HP per unit.

I think we should all just consider the veterancy it gets instead of the type of unit it is. I believe 10 popcap is fine as it is.. It may be a sherman... but I believe it to be less useful than a sherman in its combined role to actually win a game.

calliope rockets do 30 damage.

I disagree that the Cally is less useful than a Sherman for the overall purpose of winning the game. With a cally on the field, the Axis players HAVE to attack. If they fail to do so, their units will simply be outattritioned by the Cally vomiting on them now and again. It is not simply the killing power of it, but the inexorable nature of it that makes it OP.

There's just no way it can be 30 per rocket unless it's getting a 200%+ modifier against infantry. - in that case it needs to be changed.

According to COH-Stats, Calliope rockets do 50-30, decreasing to 30-18 at long AOE. No modifier.  Basically it needs multiple hits to kill any infantry that's at full health.  Though with so many rockets being fired, it's more than possible to get a kill critical for infantry at yellow HP (one hit).

I know grens survive a hit to the dome from a callie rocket, so it's under 80 at any rate.

The rocket damage is 30-50, however the 'short' range AoE does 1.5x damage.  This means that in a direct rocket hit, damage can vary between 45 and 75.  Technically, this is still less than some infantry unit HP, but well within the red HP critical on a 'good hit'.  This can cause some Grenadiers surviving a direct hit, but others exploding.  This also explains how previous vet levels that gave Grenadiers health bonuses with veterancy made them eat two or even three rocket hits before dying.

Wow my brain is shortfusing today.  Apparently I can't read coh stats.

Oh well, my bad.

Umm...

Why not increase Calliopes price?

I know Calliope is massive killer and all but why not increase its price to match up with Axis Super tanks? We are all aware that calliope is not a super tank but you can consider it as a super tank since it is more survivable and deals more damage. If we increase its pop normally to match up around 12 which is a basic tank requirement but its price up to close to match a King Tiger or close to Tiger Ace?

It is just me, this would make allies players to decide (few more Shermans or M10s or Calliope and very few other tanks)
This is what Axis players decide when they look at the big price of a big metal box called Tiger Ace or King Tiger or basic Tiger.

If Calliope costs close to a Axis super tank then you may ignore me I've always seen CAlliope- but on the barrels wrong side

This would respect EiR's habit to stay loyal to VCoH Stats

insta ban, you know the rules.

I'm I missing something or has the calli not changed in over a year and is suddenly now overpowered?

As far as I'm aware, there was always a consensus about it being overpowered.

As far as I remember, there has always been a concencus calliopes are useless without DRR, back in vEiR... Most wehr units can shrug off a cali barage - units like paks could even get out of the barrage area alive.

Think it's mostly the low HP of PE units that's making such a fuss about the cali right now - it always insta-gibs a guy with each of it's rockets on PG squads, and it doesn't take too many to kill the other units the PE have...

Give tp_Infantry_Soldier armor less succeptibility to calliope shots or smth, could help a lot, seeing as the nature of the PE means they have to blob quite a lot when in a direct engagement with enemy troops. Make PE halftracks and cars take less damage from the calliope too - not a huge nerf to the calli, but would help the side that suffers most from the cali right now - the PE.

That and 12 popcap would make sure cali isn't OP, but not useless either.

ah poo

i explicitly checked for the 1.5 damage bit, but i looked at the AOE accuracy by accident  :-X

like someone said before..it is not completely OP because the kill it make
it is op because it forces the opponents to attack suiciding units or to die a slow death

it would not make a sense to raise its pop slightly or to make it more expensive...

you would reach just the border between "not cost effective" and "OP"

the main problem of the calliope are the missing counters...

that is always a problem for distance units like artillery
they need to have some "cost effective" counters

that is why artillery pieces need weakness and have to be balanced with its weakness and not using its cost only

calliope is fast has heavy armor and dont need to be at the frontline to do its damage....that is what it makes difficult to counter

with hummel armor and hummel speed/acceleration it would be still do the same damage against blobbing

I agree with BDick in that the problem that is the calliope, is its Survivability.

The main reason for that, is the sherman chassis which makes it really really really hard to kill in one go, and at the same time gives it a very nice speed to get out of dodge - should the opponent try and make a (often futile) attempt at throwing away a couple of tanks and shreck squads etc. at it.

At the same time, the problem is, that the ONLY unit the axis side has that can be dropped behind enemy lines, is FJ, and ffs, all they can get are overpriced Fausts, and only one per. squad, which means u have to drop like 4 of em, on the callie, and all have to hit the rear armor... right.... thats cost effective... :/ and then there is the Stormtroopers that people allways mention, which in truth is a joke, cause of the MASSIVE shreck cost on them (not mentioning the recent shreck nerf - wtfs up with that?) and the fact that they are easily spottet before getting to the target -PLUS- they are FAR FAR FAR from a safe kill on the callie, once again because of the redicilous survivability of the damn thing, and will end up dead meat after the first go, if the allied player isnt mentally retarded.

THEN, on top of that, the Callie has a LOW pop-cost, and EPIC vet-advantages - vet which is EASILY aquired, once again - youve guessed it - due to it BEING FUCKING INVINCIBLE.

And guys, plz stop arguing FOR the callie by saying "allies need something OP to play up with the -TOTALLY WTF OP WERMACHT!!!-" which is just pathetic - especially whilst WM is getting WTF-nerfed atm.

SO, in conclusion, stop fan-boying around, and start doing something about this, its just a bad joke - AND, yes, i agree, until doctrines are introduced the Armor-doctrine is very weak without callies, compared to the other doctrines, but that just doesnt excuse the callie being a ridicilous I-WIN button.

EiR is based around not doing stat changes so we should focus on price/pop. The current price is already a massive investment but the pop is ridicules low. IMHO the pop should be raised to a minimum of 12 preferably 14.   

Shrek price goes up by an average 15 munitions and wehr is suddenly "WTFNERFED"... I'm wondering what's more fanboy'ish - complaining about the calliope getting a 25 percent increase in pop cap cost(with which the allies seem to have no trouble at all) or seeing a 9-18 percent increase in shrek price as a castration to the wehr forces...


I think that's pretty much the sentence I'd use to describe something that is balanced. By your post, though, it seems you want the cali to be not cost effective, not the inbetween.

Killing a caliope is hard, but hey - so is killing a Tiger Ace, it requires teamwork and determination. I've seen the dual shrek clowncar IHT destroy most allied tanks with extreme efficiency, maybe they would work vs callies as well? If you're going to argue "there's too much support weapons guarding it" - hey, a popcap increase to it would mean one of them is now gone, effectively a gap in their defence for you to exploit. Also, don't forget that each of the units your enemy uses to guard his cali is one less unit at the front lines. If he's doing both - protecting the cali and the front line with his units, then you're getting outplayed, and that's all I can say.

Some of the bullshit I read here makes me laugh. Mysthalin, you cannot possible mean that killing tiger ace and killing a calliope is the same thing. Think about it one more time. The tiger ace is effectively neutralized by one at gun keeping its turret towards it or at least scared off and tricked into not doing much damage. The calliope is ONLY neutralized by being destroyed or chased off the field. And there is no way to threaten a calliope into not doing its job, as it vastly outranges any unit that threatens it face to face.

Survivability is the main issue here, it needs to go down when you actually send shit against it and you catch it in the open. Speed/health is one of the most evident ways to solve this.

Please dont regurgitate the crap about not changing stats from vcoh as it has already happened many times. The Shrek was until recently more accurate at long range than it was in vcoh.

And honestly, if anyone MUST have a calliope to counter a axis mortar.. go you. You are one of those crappy noob players who run out of forces halfway into the game because you  fire up directly against an mg to kill it instead of doing a regular flank. Opinion of such players should be counted out.

I also see the damage discussion coming up - BUT THIS IS NOT THE POINT AND NEVER WAS - The point was that EVEN WHEN YOU CORNER IT, it will refuse to die because of armor/hp/speed.

If you manage to scare away a Tiger Ace with just one (1) 57 mm pointing at it, you got one hell of a noob as your enemy. The TA has more speed and more health than the Calliope, while doing simmilar damage(even though in a direct manner, unlike the calliope).
I've given you a credible counter to it, that doesn't require you to be uber lucky, have an uber shitty enemy(unlike your proposal of beating a TA with 1 AT gun), or anything else.

Show us some replays of you taking out a calli inside its support blob with PE infantry halftracks loaded up with PE shreks - cost effectively. And one 57 with ap rounds will keep the TA away if you have a spotter for the 57.  I understand your need to take your own individual stance on everything but defending the current calli is just bullshit you and you should rise above it.

25 pop cap full of HT's with shrecks you noob! They can't kill them all can they?

um smokaz, mysthalin is in favor of a slight calli nerf

Stormies wern't changed. They've always had 150mun shreks.

I don't know which part of double shrek you missed, but whatever.
I could give you dozens of replays where a single grenadier with a shrek would kill a calliope, as the last guy of the push against it, where every single support weapon for the calli had been raped.
I could give you even more replays where a cali being on the field, and it's support being not on the front lines, but in the back, supporting the cali, made sure of a loss of the calis team.
Alas, EiRR does not support the old replay, nor are they anywhere to be found on the interwebz. Guess we'll have to deal with it ^^.
No, a single 57 won't hold off a tiger ace, not even with a spotter(especialy since 57s have quite good sight range) and AP rounds. AP rounds are single use, last I checked, and AFAIK turning the gun instantly turns off the ability.

And yes, I am in favor of a slight calli nerf in terms of popcap, and have even put forward a logical reason as to why the calliope suddenly became OP and how it could be fixed, without changing how it performed in the vEiR enviroment, where it was a pretty well balanced unit - with DRR it would actually deal significant damage, but it came at a cost of being defeated by MIRA.

I'm starting to wonder if PE/brits should just be normalized to infantry armor types.

Definitely a can of worms, though...

Wouldn't help vs the cali/other artilery ^^. Aparently, soldier armor helps them vs rifles and stuff, while making them prone to flames.

(Long-ass post here, but you people aren't worth the time)

I don't think that's very nice scyntos.
Actually, you blatantly showed disrespect for everyone in the forums with that post, but to each his own.

Well.. it's true. I typed the big long post which had valid arguments.. wasn't flame.. had suggestions.. and it wasn't opinionated at all. But I thought to myself.. I'm one person in this sea of idiocy.. I don't matter.

That's when I decided that 1/4th of you don't know what you're talking about. A 1/4th of you only play axis. A 1/4th of you have never used a calliope in EiR:R. And the other quarter is just jumping on the nerf bandwagon.

Personally I want the thread locked until doctrines come out. Then we can re-bitch about everything.

what about the fifth quarter?

Anyways, one that holds all others inferior, usually is.

How is there a fifth quarter in 25% of 100?

Hell I might be inferior.. but just look at yourselves.. listen to your arguments. You're arguing with each other for what? For the balance of 1 unit?

It's just not worth it. I'm sure you people would strangle eachother if you were within earshot. Thank god it's a forum.

Well yes. normalizing would require raising their HP.

PzG: 55 HP.  
Garand damage: 6. Shots to kill: 9
BAR damage: 2.8. Shots to kill: 19
Thompson damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 14
Enfield damage: 7.5 Shots to kill: 7
Bren damage: 2.5 Shots to kill: 21

Gren: 80 hp.
Garand damage: 10. Shots to kill: 8
BAR damage: 5.25. Shots to kill: 15
Thompson damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 21
Enfield damage: 10 Shots to kill: 8
Bren damage: 3.75 Shots to kill: 21

as you can see, other than the Thompson and a lesser extent the BAR the units are almost identical, because infantry_soldier gives about 35% damage protection against small arms for the 35% reduction in HP.  But most explosive weapons (like calliope rockets) don't have any balance tweaking for infantry_soldier and so do 45% more damage (relatively speaking) than they would have to grenadiers.  Flamethrowers are in the same boat of doing the same damage to targets with less HP. 

Offtopic, but the thompson ignores the PG armor. Coupled with their low health, this is one of the reasons normal pgs stand 0% chance against thompsons in the open.

Umm...

Why not increase Calliopes price?

I know Calliope is massive killer and all but why not increase its price to match up with Axis Super tanks? We are all aware that calliope is not a super tank but you can consider it as a super tank since it is more survivable and deals more damage. If we increase its pop normally to match up around 12 which is a basic tank requirement but its price up to close to match a King Tiger or close to Tiger Ace?

It is just me, this would make allies players to decide (few more Shermans or M10s or Calliope and very few other tanks)
This is what Axis players decide when they look at the big price of a big metal box called Tiger Ace or King Tiger or basic Tiger.

If Calliope costs close to a Axis super tank then you may ignore me I've always seen CAlliope- but on the barrels wrong side

This would respect EiR's habit to stay loyal to VCoH Stats

it is kinda funny how people compare a piece of artillery (calliope) to a tank (tiger)

a tank does its damage on the front line and gets its damage meanwhile...where a piece of artillery does its damage without being under fire

that is actually why a piece of artillery has weaknesses to make it need for support behind the front line

the calliope is the only artillery that is heavily mobile with a heavy armor that give it the possibility to not need support behind the lines (other as people say) if there is some stuff send in to kill it, it is fast enough and survivable enough to bait almost everything into the kill zones

that is how its work

using a calliope means not to bring protecting units to your calliope it means to bring the calliope into the range of your protecting units

ps: and scyntos i used a 3 calliope company in EiR days

We will most likely be making a slight modification to the calliope in 0.0.4.

not laugh but puke..

what does 'slight modification' mean?!

Your kidding right?  Storm troopers?  hell even camo'ed pak guns.  What i simply dont understand is how in vEiR callies died all the time and were 2x as powerful but no one gave a damn.  Do you really think the only time callies died was from rocket arty??   

Also Couldnt you apply any of those 5 things to lets say any skilled player with a tank?  Ever try killing any of Schultz's tanks?? It wasnt that the tanks were OP , it was that he was a skilled player.  The same thing applies for callies. 

In vEIR you dropped MI + RA on it while it was firing, and boom it was dead. This combo was overpowered as well. I kill schultz tanks like they were tanks becasue they ARE tanks, and even when I can't kill them I know how to hold them off with AT. Theres no way to stop a calli like a tank, I dont know why you would use such a retarded comparison. -.-

Also, if you just move the calli the moment the stormtroopers nail it with the first barrage, calli gets away and the inf support jumps the storms = 300 munitions gone and wasted. There is nothing you can do to stop this, other than bringing a blocking unit hoping this wont get spotted and then destroyed. (Cloaked bike! yay!)

This idea is just as superficial and short-sighted as the "double p4 24 pop rush" to get the 10 pop calli. It only works on lazy or stupid players.  Also, a p4 uses around 8 shots to kill a calli, not counting misses deflections and smoke popped.

Conviction was also another hard counter for it.....

Donnie makes a good point - it's not the cali that's OP or too survivable - it's the fact it's got that much support helping it, so a popcap increase would already be really useful.
If it's not doing that much damage to you, then it shouldn't be a problem for you to just have it there tying up enemy popcap. If you don't blob or camp down with a full host of support weapons, you shouldn't feel the calliope's vomit doing much damage at all. Personaly - I hardly ever bother to kill the calliope(other than going on a hunt with a panther), I rather kill off the jeeps scouting for it as the more powerful, yet more vulnearable part of the combination.
People keep mentioning that the caliope is both high HP and on a sherman chasis, and that it's got speed. But good sirs, think about what you're saying. The cali has a speed of 4. That means, grenadiers can keep up pace with it! Factor in the fact it has to accelerate to reach this speed, that it has to turn so it doesn't reverse away(thusly having lower speed), that it might fail at pathing and stop completely. P4s, grenadiers, anything catches up with it! Actually, a KT might even kill a calliope if it fails for but a second in front of the beast(heh, I loved cali hunting with my 2 KT company in one game while in a forest - the thing just barely ran away from the KT at 5 hp, then got shot by a pak ^^.)

MIRA only worked on DRR calliopes.

A cali is Completly usless if
1.) Your on the backside of a hill
2.) your in a building
3.) Your behind a headge, or building
4.) your not grouped tightly
5.) if it can;t see you


Its 10 pop cap right now, it was 9.  Yet its not that powerful.  Yes i have played against them.  Once they fire, Attack.

Its ARTILLERy.  Its going to kill trenched in units, its the sole purpose of it.  IT is also an ANTI blob unit.  IF u blob you die, Seperate some of your ment and sudden;lt a barrage may sting, but so does  every other unit in the game.

Hey puddin we all played against calli and we all here know the list of things not to do.
Everyone's here contibuted something to the matter, and beyond any advice on how to counter a calliope, the issue remain and the criticism is viable.

Shultz your right you view is credible and we are looking at the calli thank-you all for some constructive criticism on the matter.

agreed. I once played against someone who completely negated my callie by keeping spread out.

Mortar HT consistently outkills the callie, but i guess since its not on a sherman chasis its not OP, even tho it is speedier.

Mortar ht´s are easy to kill because they have a very short range, to be an arty piece, and you can kill them with anything.

Mortar halftrack dies to what, 3 zook hits? Gets penetrated by anything in the game, outranges the 57mm by 5 ingame units or so?

If you have ever tried mortaring a 17 pounder, you know how RELATIVELY short range this has.

You're all forgetting that no other artillery is as effective in killing tanks.

Fire a calliope at close range into a P4 or similar and watch its health go down drastically/die.

The calliope can rape at close range like nothing else, the tank is unbelievably powerful as artillery or direct support and you will find that the veteran players use it close range and rape.

It would seem, that the best nerf would be to increase the minimum range so it can't fire as close.

i agree. I've got my pe mortar ht to vet 2 witout even trying.

If I have a calliope I encourage people to get their mortar HT to vet2. My calliope is vet2 after 3 games. It consistantly kills 30-40infantry, tanks etc etc etc.

How many vehicles does your  mortar HT kill?

Hell, you can even counter a mortarHT with a calliope quite effectively.

You can't compare the calli to a super tank because it's not a front line unit.  You have to see the enemy to hurt them, and generally speaking if you can see them they can see you.  Something has to take the hits before artillery can go to work. Super tanks are very good at this.

Random thought that struck me: lockdown on the calli to fire, 5s set / 5s unset.

***

Mannfred: Listing off the calliope's advantages over the mortar HT is sorta silly, given how much more it costs. ;)

Lock down the Calliope to fire? Rofl, EiR will never implement that. If it's not in vCoH, chances are it won't be in EiR.

Jack you know you never know thats an interesting idea all the same. 

Might bring it up in the next balance review......

You could increase the pop to 11, add 15 seconds to the cooldown, give it a lockdown time and people will still complain because their Tiger/blob took 15 rockets to the face.  ::)

I didn't compare them, other people did, I simply stated that the calliope is MORE powerful than the mortar HT and why it is, as people previously were claiming the mortar ht is better.

Increasing the cool down sounds good - but I really liked the idea of adding lockdown ;)

Will definately be discussing this one!

but, will adding the lockdown increase any stats, or would you just have to lock down to fire? If that's the case (gotta lock downto fire), can I suggest maybe giving its gun back and it can only fire it if it's not locked down? And when its locked down, it can't fire. Would still be vulnerable but it'd be able to defend itself at least, especially considering when locking down, ther's going to be a short timer going in and going out, so inbetween that time it can't fire the rocket barrage, dont thinking giving its gun back will make too much of a difference.

wish the croc could get a gun...i'd happily pay more for that, anybody agree there?

lol..You know Tym i always wanted a p4 firing rockets ..

The lock down is just a possible gameplay change - but thinking more on it, it may cripple the calli.

When offmaps and doctrines come in, this unit will not dominate as much as it currently does.

summary: nerf its vet, nerf its armour, nerf its speed, add a lockdown(which has a cooldown), increase its minimum range, i guess thats it.
so what now?

im for nerfing its armour, adding a lockdown with cooldown and nerfing its vet2 and vet3 (-15sec cooldown instead of -30)

but even these changes wouldnt make it any weaker (its rockets) but i think it should be easier to kill it then than now.

what about adding a lockdown to all arty pieces?
in my opinion the priest is also very powerful because of its creeping barrage which is devastating in every case.

I'm scared shitless for this day. The game is so nice right now without offmaps.

yes me too =/

all kind of arty is lame, except for mortars!!!

that would change nothing to add a lockdown

a panzer4 needs an average of 10 shots to kill a calliope (not included the misses while moving)
there for he has to survive the breakthrough enemy lines and the 10 shoots

meanwhile a calliope can drive around the most maps to almost each position it want

to add a 5 seconds lockdown give the panzer4 maybe a free shot....that change nothing

es it would change things in combinaton with the other points.
im talking about a lockdown with 10-15secs cooldown

So all kind of arty is lame if the axis side of it isn't the better one...
I love off-maps, added such a big layer of strategy into the game, not having them seriously makes the game inferior.

The P4 does NOT need an average of 10 shots to kill a calliope, get your facts straight. It does not need to move all the way while shooting at the cali, because it can... (omg) outrun it and block it!

P4 need 10 shots average to kill a calliope (not included misses)

a calliope has 636 HP and a P4 shoot does 87,5HP damage when it penetrates

when it don't penetrate it does much less damage damage

and if it can outrun a calliope depends on the map....
with wide open space maybe but as far as it need to stop or drive around something
calliope can make a huge advance because of 1/3 more acceleration

and that is it what makes vehicles work some kind of slowly (and why sherman vet1 with speed buff was kind of useless in EiR)

and acceleration is it what makes a panther looking such a fast tank

636/87.5 = 7.26
That means, it will on average kill a calliope in 8 hits, while being capable of killing it in 7, with a lucky critical.
If it doesn't penetrate it still does 15 percent damage, which is 13 damage, and that is still quite useful... Remember, that if the calliope reverses away from the P4, it can't outrun it in any situation, and is prone to a pathing failure. If it runs in full speed with it's ass shown, it always gets penetrated and has a very high chance to get damaged engine if it's shot in the ass at yelow health(basicaly 2 P4 shots will put it into yellow).

penetration of Panzer4 against a calliope is only 62,3 % means your 8 shots will take

8*0.623*87.5+8*0.375*0.15*87.5=447.32 HP

since the calliope has 636HP that will be obviously not enough

This is all irrelative gentlemen. There's no telling whether you'll be getting rear armor the whole time.. front armor bounces. You can't say it takes *x* amount of anything because it all depends on the corresponding micro and dice rolls. Even 'Average' amount of shots is irrelevant.

It will actually take 486.5 HP, not 447.32, with the "average" chance, which is not that prone to happening. And if 149.5 is too much to take down afterwards(a single pak shot is enough to kill it with the 1st strike modifier as it will put the calliope into red HP where it has a chance to crit it into death/destroyed engine)

The average is quite relevant - it gives facts to support a viewpoint - in this case that the Calliope is unreasonably hard to kill for a PIV in most situations.

I chased a calli with my p4 the other day, first 2 bounces (one rear, one front) then miss, then a hit. The calli flew to safety :p
I couldnt help wondering what if it was a priest, hummel.

I love how the "side" trying to downplay the neccessity of nerfing the calliope will compare it to supertanks, light vehicles and mortars.

Everything but the other artillery in the game seems like a valid item of comparison.

Maybe because if you DO look at the calliope in the light of the other artillery, you see how insanely powerful, easymode and survivalfest this unit is.

I never understood all the criticism of the Calli, as I always play Amis.
Yesterday I played axis...OMFG that Calli is terrifying. I tried to flank and take it out, but it ran to protection. But, as the enemy protected it, my team mates were able to advance.

After the defense ripped me apart and the Calli survived, the Calli devastated my team mates advance and we were back to where we started with a lot less units to work with.

The Calli felt way overpowered as an axis player. But I have to say, 2 nights cross paired with 2 double shreks and a flamer was able to rape everything else.....until the Calli squished my blob  :(

Tank130, out of the closet! Praise the redeemed sinner, speaking God's truth about the devil worshipping that is the Calliope.

i've killed lots of callies playing as wehr and pe, so i guess thats why i just dont get it. As someone who's played a lot with callies, i just know how to counter them. If you're pe, knock out the engine and you critically reduce its effectiveness.

show us replays (no noobbash) were you advance against calliopes as PE and Wehr
were you effective cripple them and kill them or scare them offmap (with efficient usage of ressources)

your attempt to rule with the PE hummel (as you promised us) was in the replay found in replay section, a complete fail

 8)

enlighten us how to handle callis and show us l2p

The lockdown would actually serve two purposes: slowing down the calliope's ability to instantly respond to targets of opportunity, and slowing down its ability to escape retribution.  It's long been known that the calli is extremely vulnerable while firing; the vulnerable period would last longer. 

and 15s is WAY too long.

It was just brainstorming though.

Come on Tym, stop being rediculous - sneak a paper IHT through and destroy its engines so that it can be repaired behind the lines by an Engi squad? Remember, the Treadbreaker doesn't do much damage, so the status is quickly gotten rid of. . .

All it takes is one shrek hit to make fast repair impractical. If you can get an ATHT in, you can get a IHT in. Or a Hetzer, or a Marder.

No offense, but no one has seen you play axis for more than a few games.

If the owner of the calli is deaf, well yes you can do it :p.

Funny that, suddenly I don't just need to rush in and Treadbreak it, but I need to perform a small combined arms attack on it, from concealment, without my opponent knowing what is happening, or having suitable counters around anyway using his extra pop cap from it.

This is what we're talking about - unlike any other arty in the game, the fucking thing requires some kind of nuts suicide move to even make it less effective, let alone kill it.

I think I'd disagree with that.. the Nebel is in a similar boat.  But the problem with assaulting axis indirect fire is that you can't see a vast majority of their units which may be protecting it due to stealth.

u just try to evade the fact that the calli is too strong. stop this. this is an observation.

I treadbreak Callis while landing a few other hits to slow it down pretty often. I'm not sure why people are saying it's impractical.

In fact in my experience they are more vulnerable to immobilization than normal. Probably just coincidence.

Treadbreaker is not a reliable counter, nor a knock out blow, but it does work.

In fact I have a game replay upright now where a calli got immobilized by TB and destroyed. Although it managed to get a good salvo off while immobed, the bastard.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=8669.0

Don't nerf Americans Callies, not until you add in the real doctrine's so were on a even level THEN you can put some nerfs on it.

Aloha, It is pathetic that people are trying to find reasoning as to why the cali is OP right now, when in EiR noone complained about them even though they could either repair themselves(very important factor) or have twice the rockets fired. One added even more survivability, the other kept the survivability at the same position, yet maximised it's usefullness - even at maximum range it would destroy more than they do now at point blank. Add that to the fact it cost 9 popcap to field those days, when it costs 10 pop to field right now.

The claim that it is supperior to every other artilery in the game is true, but maybe that's a problem with the OTHER artilery, not the cali? I mean, you'll find no use for a hummel or a priest most of the time, they're just popcap whores - and you don't even need to have a calliope to come to that conclusion.

It does die when caught, and if the enemy manages to respond to your attack on it - he outplayed you. If he didn't, you outplayed him. I just lost a game against something as simple and basic as support weapon spam today - I wasn't prepared to tackle it with artilery(having none), and I got outplayed by nice useage of mines so I couldn't flank properly either. The fact I couldn't kill a 3 HMG 4 pak and 4 mortar line doesn't mean it is absolutely blatantly OP(well, I could, but it would just get recrewed) - no, it dies to artilery, and it was my fault for having none.

Yeah but if you start doing direct comparisons someone will bring up

30cal/vickers to mg 42
pak to 57mm/17 pounder
axis mortar to allies mortar

etc etc and then theres a world of trouble.

They did, not so much like now, but there´s quite a few threads about it in those days.

Note that the calliope had a higher population value pre-EIRR

uhh, what? i thought the callie used to be 9 pop in eier and is 10 pop in Eirr???

There was a time when it was 14 pop AFAIK ;).

ahhh. i think 10 is fine imo. it's still a pretty good pop and since it's artillery, it usually stays on the field a while so having a high pop would really weaken the player using it imo. As someone pointed out, the allies need the arty they have, its the only real advantage they've got over their counter-parts.

what you think is irrelevant

you have to compare this to other artillery in the game and the best thing to compare to is the priest and the hummel

both are slower have less hp, much worse armor, higher cooldown and have more pop then 10 and does much less damage (never saw a priest or hummel with 40 inf+tank kills in eirr)

this sums up to make this unit clearly broken
most broken unit in the game

No, this sums up to that the priest and hummel are absolutely titty-fucking useless, not that the cali is too powerful, as I stated a few posts back.
Comparing the calliope to the other artilery is UNVIABLE because the other artilery sucks ass. If you want all artilery to suck ass, then you may ask for a nerf to the cali. I'd rather ask for buffs on the other artilery, as they actually need it.
Have you ever seen an allied mortar with 40+ kills? I've seen axis mortars with 60 kills, because they hit far, and they hit hard - VERY hard. That doesn't mean the axis mortar is the most broken unit in the game, though - it's just better than the allied counterpart.
Maybe it's time for you to accept that most axis units are supperior to most allied units? Calliope is a nice Tie-them-up.

No Myst, your logic is titty fucked. Every single other arty piece in the game follows that same rules: High burst damage output, vulnerable (either by being slow or just skinny), long range.

The Cally is the only one that disobeys these rules by not being vulnerable. The other arty pieces aren't titty fucking useless, they fill a niche and don't define the battle the way a cally does.

A cally IS the battle it's deployed in. If it is not neutralised, the allies will out attrite the Axis EVERY FUCKING TIME. If you try and kill it, you require the alignment of planets and a goddamned luna eclipse because of how little pop cap it takes, it's off the fucking hook armour, and speed, all an order of magnitude better than any comparable arty.

The difference between the cally and every other unit in the game is that the cally has no serious drawbacks, no serious counters, and several extreme strengths.

The argument is done to death. Of fucking course you can kill a cally - at the end of the day it's just a Sherman that needs to be thousands of units away to kill. At the end of the day it only has finite armour and HP, and at the end of the day human error can cause it's speed to not become a factor. The point was never that it's unkillable, or that it single handedly wipes out armies, as the defenders of it seem to want to make out, but rather that it takes TOO MUCH to kill, and kills TOO MUCH itself without SUFFICIENT risk.

It is TOO STRONG, not SV_INSTANTWIN 1.

EDIT: And yes Myst, we did complain. Every fucking game there was a Cally in, we would complain on vent. Allied players would normally agree with us that the cally was too strong after the game, or in chat. We didn't vomit crap on the forums because there was a major update coming, and because there were a few counters to it (admittedly they were really stupid and lame - pretty much the sole purpose of MI/RA and V1s became to kill Callies because nothing else could, and they excelled at that task). The Calli has been widely acknowledged as too strong for quite some time, along with other things we did bitch about like oversupply, air superiority, subversion and the levels of mindless spam that allied players could put up, all of these are absent at the moment either by fixes or omission, but the Cally soldiers on.

And yes, judging these units in a Doctrine vaccuum probably seems silly, but more likely the doctrines will be balanced by the strength of units, not vice versa. It may be that subsequent doctrine additions will benefit units that can kill callies so much more than callies that the whole thing will work out. But then, it may not, and we might have to resort to more intuitive balancing.

Yet again I am for a slight nerf to it - but blatantly put, I'm really dumbfounded - people did not complain about calliopes, other than "you just point and click" failing to notice that the only time the calli was really effective was if the enemy was "point and click'ing" with a blob or not even clicking with support weapon spam.
And yet again I'm for a popcap cost boost to 12, but I'm only in this thread because certain people are posting in it, and insulting other people. They are also, simply put, biased noobstomping assholes who do not deserve their rights to post(I, and everyone else, probably, know the duo I'm talking about) - but they're making their oppinions aired. If noone comes along to reply to their faulty logic, it would only mean everyone is OK with it.
Yet again, what I said stands - the cali isn't OP because every other arty fails, but it SEEMS OP because every other arty fails. Yes, it doesn't follow the common rules of mobile arty - it can survive more hits than they do.
The cali does not deal quite that much damage unless it is shooting at either support weapon spam, or blobs - if the enemy isn't doing any of the mentioned tactics, the cali is just not worth the popcap cost.
And yes, the other arty (hummel and Priest) DO fail. They fill NO niche, they just blatantly fail, and the fact they can't define a battle(or get more kills or do more damage than a mortar does) means they're fail, not that the cali is somehow OP. If mortars do more damage than Priests do, the mortar is OP? It's also exceedingly hard to kill a mortar HT if it has a single shrek squad in support - the tetrarch will target the infantry over the HT, and other tanks won't be able to keep up. Infantry will get suppressed by HMGs, and will be outrun. But the mortar HT isn't OP, even though it costs just 6 popcap, and is also quite hard to kill(albeit having less HP than a cali, it has better targeting priorities against it, and better speed). Same for a stuka.
So first of all, buff the hummel and priest - they need a LOT of love, both of them. I've tried both, and they're just not viable, not begin a circle of fucked up balance by first nerfing the cali. Or are we missing ucross?

Myst... fail... the Wermacht is BASED on very effective but SLOW units, like the MG/Mortar/Pak gun, all of these things are utterly RAPED by a Calli, which as ive allready stated my oppinion about, is very close to being invincible, unless u base ur whole army around killing Callis.
Which means that the "low" damage, which really isnt that freakin low, ends up killing at least 1 support weapon PER barrage, which as a MINIMUM is 270mp 40mun, tell me again thats not worth the popcap ? ESPECIALLY since they put a MAX on the MG's/Paks/Mortars an army can field.

I agree some people are being ridicilously biased on both sides, but like ive said before, doesnt excuse it being fucking IMBA.

Btw. "calli being the only useful arty" ? IF the rest of the arty pieces in the game were as ridicilous as the Calli, why would u ever want to buy anything else? 3*Iwinbutton = GG?

Whether to make all artillery as powerful as the calliope - or the calliope as weak as the others - is a design decision, not a balance one. That one artillery piece is out of line with all other artillery pieces similiar to it in the game - is a balance issue. As it stands now you keep confuzzling the issue here mysthalin. Like when you are saying "comparing the other artillery to the calliope is unviable because the other artillery sucks ass" it just becomes weird to read, thats already a comparison

I don't know why you guys still bother debating this.. There's really no telling what doctrine abilities, resource bonuses... off maps will bring to the table. All of said things could possibly bring balance to a lot of the game, but you're too impatient.. you want results now. So just continuing to bicker back and forth does nothing. If I were a dev.. I'd read this thread and find it amusing.. but also think to myself that they have no idea what's coming, therefor we're not changing anything until they see the full game.(Which I would totally support.)

I could just start a bunch of balance threads for no reason, but someone out there would respond regardless and everyone would either jump down my throat about it.. or back me up.. and then the next person will counter it.. etc etc.. it just goes on and on. Should save your breath for when balance matters.

Cause this whole debate -excepting the flaming fanboys- is a list of back and forth arguments towards/against nerfing the calli, and ofcourse it wont be implemented till the next version, we know that, someone however has to make the Dev's aware that there is a balance issue regarding the Calli.

Then if the devs later on will come and say - hey, guys, were going to change the calli for the next version, hang on (other than unknowns "small change" comment) - we would, ofcourse like to have our say in how it should be changed, which once more makes this thread useful. If the topic isnt discussed, it wont be resolved either, pure logic.

And doctrines shouldnt be used to balance out the game in anywhere near the amount regular price/availability balance is implemented.
-pretty sure thats the Dev's perspective aswell, otherwise we should just screw the whole system and start adjusting vCOH stats :/

I do tho agree that some ppl are just retarded listening to, not even trying to argument properly and just throwing mud all the time.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4386.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=4566.0

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=7002.0 (*sigh)


and I barely took a look to find those :p.

lol and there were a lot of stuff made to nerf the callie. It is a great unit but I'll tell you one thing, if you nerf the callie, nerf the tiger ace and king tiger and jagdpanther because all 4 of those units are game changes once put on the field and are really hard to kill.

Everyone tell me something, what do you fear the most? 2 callies on the field, or two tiger aces on the field? Or two king tigers on the field? or two jagdpanthers on the field?

and i didn't mention the pershing for a reason, it's probably the most balanced heavy tank out there, not too powerful but just powerful enough to be a step up for the allies, it's more an addition than a game changer. If anything, the wehr and pe have more capability to combat a heavy tank than the allies do. Which is where I think this debate really starts, how well can you combat a unit? I think if the axis had a unit like the callie, it'd be insanely overpowered because the allies would just have a hell of a time to kill it with no cloaking units (pak, storms) no powerful tank destroyer (panther) or long range units to damage engine (lat ht) or a strong manpacked unit (schreck) ever seen what a player that defends his stuka or nebel well can do? it's insane and can do more damage than a callie can do in the same amount of time (basically, a stuka can do more damage between callie cool downs).

So maybe, we don't really need to nerf the callie, maybe just like people have learned to play against panthers and tigers and king tigers and aces' and jagdpanthers, you need to learn how to counter the callie. I know the 2 times i've played against one, I didn't have much trouble not getting pwned by it and then knocking it out.

Totally disagree. If you play with a pershing in this game right now you'd see how outmatched it is. It has like a 20% chance to penetrate a hetzer from the front.. a hetzer outranges the pershing by 10. (Estimation based on a recent game) And a hetzer... unlike a p4 will penetrate the front armor of the pershing.(Fuck that thread where they cry about a hetzer being overpriced)

Right now the Pershing needs a drastic change in my book. It's obsoleted by nearly everything the axis have. The pershing has almost no chance to hit an at gun.(who knows why)

In short.. the pershing is the same as old EiR.. except now theres even more dangers that a pershing faces. "balanced" isn't quite the word i'd use to describe the pershing. If we're going to nerf the calliope.. then we should probably take into account that the reason people use the calliope is because the pershing is no match for the axis. So by nerfing the calliope without giving the pershing some love.. you're effectively disabling the use of the armored company all together.

Killer, in response to your thread links.

1. It's way outdated from times beyond times forgotten. It might as well be as old as Atari 2600 is.
2. It's posted by aloha. So yeah. Aloha.
3. Also outdated when cali cost 14 pop, and it was a complaint about the veterancy. And frankly, I understand why as 40 seconds between cali recharges would be tittyfucking insane. Now it's nearer 3 minutes.

Also, agree to scyn.

I agree the Pershing is more vulnerable than the axis heavy tanks, I kinda pointed that out as the axis have much better AT fighting capabilities than the allies do. What would you do to "buff" the Pershing then?

Right now the Pershing stands at
Pershing, 0, 2, 3
Pershing - 790 MP, 610 F, 17 pop  

Comparatively speaking...
Tiger, 0, 2, 3
Tiger Ace, 0, 1, 4
King Tiger, 0, 1, 4

Tiger - 860 MP, 635 F, 17 pop
Tiger Ace - 900 MP, 665 F, 18 pop
King Tiger - 920 MP, 680 F, 19 pop

Price wise, the Pershing is just like the Panther  (Panther - 770 MP, 590 F, 16 pop)

so...i dunno what you could do to change anything really as its more useful than the Panther (as it can kill infantry) maybe lower the pop of the Pershing so you can field more support around it? I just dont' know what you could do short of lowering the price of the Pershing and Panther to make it more fair

Tiger ace is now 700 fuel, tym ^^.
I'd say only things you could do to the pershing though, is buff it's penetration a bit, and it's speed/acceleration by minimal ammounts.
It feels kind of "right" for what it's priced and all.
However, the TA, for isntance, does not. I tried it and it's just such a roflcopter powerful unit it's not even funny. Speediest tank in the game(tetrarch is a god, not a tank), with the best damage output and second best HP/armor(falls short only to the KT and jagd. That coupled with 18 popcap cost(when a simple Tiger used to cost 18 in vEiR) and uber turret rotation speed...

the pershings penetration is good, it always penetrates the panthers armor, so do u want him to always penetrate super tanks' armor?!
its speed and acceleration is also good, much better than german super tanks' speed and acceleration and much better than shermans' acc

please, PLEASE stop spreading out wrong information.

Pershing has horrible turret and track rotation, tbh. It handles like a shopping cart compared to the ace, and costs almost the same. Dont you think allies should get a good unit when they pay as much as a tiger for it, aloha?

then they should buff the track rotation.

The Pershing is fine compared to the Tiger and Panther. It gets dominated by the Jagd, but hey... turret.

It's just the TA that makes a mess of things.

Use a pershing against PE and lol it up, in that instance it actually is useful, I think that's the main difficulty with balancing it.

Also, let's be reasonable, the axis heavy tanks aren't necessarily OP. JUST the tiger ace is OP. It shouldn't even be in the game, let's be realistic, there is a reason it isn't in vCoH and the bullshit of the unit is just extreme.

Can we keep on topic pls........... I think thier is a difference between a pershing and a calli.  :P

Is there anything more to say about the Calli?   We're well into repeating ourselves.   ;)

Well that means the discussion is over............ LOCK THREAD :D

Conclusion, the callie isn't OP!!! We shouldn't nerf the callie, just l2p :D

If we're repeating ourselves it doesn't mean that it isn't OP, infact it means the issue(s) haven't been resolved.

i know, i'm just joking around

Or, as someone has put in their signatures :
"There is no problem, so let's stop trying to create a problem and there will be no problem".
I would rather point everyone's attention to a problem that is indeed a problem, and everyone knows is a problem, yet we're not fixing it because it's not too extreme.
And no, I won't elaborate as it isn't related to the cali(well it is, but it's not an in-game unit).

*sigh* lol.. well tbh, until the doctrines are in, the callie is indeed OP... but well... just wait a bit more.. :p