COH: Europe In Ruins

When stats/units are on the line, none of us likes to play with 'noobs' who may cause us to loose our precious vet. 
Time and again, I've come to a game w/ Allied noobs, but straight axis champs.. I've lost a number of such games to the point that I *refuse* to play anymore games with those whom I think are new unless there are a similar number of 'new' axis players. 

But then people started smurfing, and games that looked even turned into stomps. 

The factors contributing to this are the few axis 'noobs', smurfing, no form of auto match.

Hell, if this keeps up, I'll either go Axis myself or just quit playing altogether.

We just need less stacking.  It causes us to be mean to noobs, telling them to go 'find another game'; I've done it, you've done it.  It may not be a dev fixable thing, but the community can certainly fix it.

[If devs were to try something, they might make it so that 1 account can be both axis/allied and swap as needed]

Its really only a select group of people that refuse to not stack. The rest of the community is pretty well off. Part of the problem is that most people just want to play so they'll go and get their ass handed to them regardless of how fair it is and that only enables stackers to keep doing it. If stackers can't find games.. they smurf. And it's pretty easy usually to tell who a smurf is.

I play both sides and try to keep to highly ranked games and players, myself. I know it's no fun to get your ass handed to you.

Aye

It is very fun to win a fight and awful to lose and blame team mate who failed to keep a flank or failed at keeping his units alive and wasted them into uselessness.

That usually leads people to smurf so that they get games with their friends.
"Play against the best so you l2p" is a typical comment to defend such a thing. I've had it couple of times when I first joined EiR. I simply avoided games and joined to games where were new like people. Sometimes they were smurfs sometimes they werent.

Its up to the community to fix it no  one else can touch it really...or prevent it

When I started, I was personaly almost instantly taken in by a few older players in the community, who would take me into their matches of one good guy and me versus two other good guys. I learned that way the quickest, though I didn't really shy away from noob + me vs 2 veteran players, or any other kind of combination. It was a fun experience, even though I lost quite a lot of games - it was the way I lost them : being respected as an enemy, nevermind of inferior skill at the time, that made them fun.

When i started the only game i could get in was always against draken and chefartz and occasionally some newer players, lost to draken 3 times then i won 4th time by alot, was chuffed. So there is your proof, play the best you become the best mkay.

Sometimes stacking is actually fair, like when us more addicted players want to get a good game going by recruiting the players we know are good to both teams. Nobody wants to have to bring out the excuses or tears from the other players whom we enjoy playing with on our team as well by stomping them and their  bad teammtes.

So it goes both ways: if you are facing a team of players which probably all could have beaten you in 1v1 or are very good then you dont want one guy without ventrilo, who doesnt listen to cries for help and who doesnt even cross the bridge out of his spawn. The fact is that lots of these players who feel miffed by other people's reluctance to team with them usually fails on more than the ingame level, like being laggers not having ventrilo etc.

Its more than being bad at the game sometimes, it takes time to get a EIRR game organized so people prefer playing with other players they know wont cause problems.

I think almost all of the "stackers" (except a known pair) prefers even or challenging games over noobstomps.

is 'counterstacking' fair?
i mean, if u see a stacked game and u know "ha i can get a better team, we'll wtfpwn you..is that necassary?

hell freek, i had a lot of fun in the game earlier with that noob we were helping!

You make a valid point, though is this about the game earlier? 

You and Wild and Scotz vs. Me (Chaplainwarlight) and Fritz and... whiskey? 

I've been trying to help him, I've played him three times.  He is definatly better than he was.  Just needs to figure out how to organize his army.

Though I won't lie, I avoid playing some people because I know they are that much better than I.  Being axis its easier.  Just watch out for people like Smokaz and his odd names. 

Though at the moment... Scotzman is the only new players I've seen around.  He tries the odd thing here and there, but hows he going to learn if people don't play with him.

Thought I replied earlier, hm.

Anyhow, this post didn't really have anything to do with prior game- it was a fun match.  Granted it was, by definition, stacked; and we did lose.. but we had fun doing it.

My problem is with those 'experts' (whom I won't name) that bait/lure noobs into stomps.  Maybe when they introduce those bonuses, this will be less of an issue; but maybe some1 should make a comp stomp w/ EiR combat.. just so it's not total culture shock for newer vCoH guys.

1. Where is the mentor/mentee/helper program?

Which is supposed to be in place with the new EiRR to help newbies? Are newbies aware that such aid is provided to them? Is anyone going around actively helping newbies?

2. I have mentioned before that the exclusiveness of PP earned in battle can promote more stacking.

Why play with a newbie and lose your PP-intensive army over one game? You gain 3PP per battle but stand to lose all your PPs if you play with a poor player. Thats limited reward, "unlimited" loss. No one does that.

3. Veterancy is another factor for stacking.

An army which is hard to vet will make people stack even more because of the difficulty in vetting and the sheer amount of kills you can get from stomping noobs.

I propose that veterancy gives small bonuses (5-10% boosts, I think this may already be in place, I never read the veterancy tables) and veterancy be easily achieved. Good players will be more willing to play with poor players to teach them as they can vet up their loss troops easily again.

Short of the most hardcore vet whores whom you can never "convert", it will at least reduce the disadvantages of helping out newbies.

4. Prestige.

There is more prestige to be had in veteran units and having fantastic win-loss stats than to help newbies. Recognition should be given somehow to players who fight battles where the odds are stacked against them.

For this to work you have to eliminate the problem of smurfing &  stats-wiping.

Apart from that, there is nothing to be gained from helping newbies. Don't expect everyone out here to be a Samaritan and go out of their way to ensure a new player gets a fun game.

5. Bonuses

Bonuses does nothing. Giving bonuses to newbies who don't know how to use them is just pointless. However, if the bonuses are too good, they encourage smurfing to grieve companies.

What if every account had 1 axis, and 1 allied company; and the sides were 'autobalanced' by the launcher.  You wouldn't know which side you'd be on, until you got to CoH.

May annoy those who want to play with certain m8's, but it'd go a long way to eliminate stacking.

Advantage System.

The main issue with the coming-soon systems is that they have not been implemented yet, yet issues such as doctrine-related balance, stacking, newbie advantages exist. If the coming-soon systems are coming within a week or month maybe we can wait, but if it takes a few months then we'll need interim, temporary systems as stop gaps to keep the field fair.

It's akin to an old dam that has cracks in it. A new dam further down the river will be built, which will solve any flooding issues. The question is will the old dam break apart before the new dam is done? Or do you want to apply some temporary concrete 'plasters' to the old dam to buy time for the new dam to be built?

Coming soon, as in really soon; like when the restart happens.

We as the developers can only do so much to stop stacking with systems like Advantages; it's up to you as the players to not stack.

Not true.

You can design the game to reduce the benefits of stacking and the "downside" or "risk" of playing with poorer players.

Systems like "Advantages" has a potential to spawn more problems or do nothing at all.

A lousy player is one who doesn't know how to use his units and abilities efficiently. Seriously, what makes you think that giving them some small abilities will give them a fighting chance? You can give calliopes with dual rocket rack upgrades and if they don't know how to use it properly, they will still get their ass kicked by pros.

Whats your concept on game balance? Whats your take on balancing "high-level" gameplay? At times, it is really difficult to comprehend the implemented balance decisions.

There is?
*shrug*

As you are playing a *BETA* version, how can you expect all pieces to work with the exclusion of others yet-to-be-added?

Simple, you cant.

The incentive to play with newer players - for Higher ranked players, will simply be a larger PP awarded to them if they do so.
The newer players themselves get their 'Training-Battle Advantages' that help them, if only slightly.

The Ultimate incentive, will be when the Warmap enters.  You will gain higher outcomes vs players of same or better skill than you would newb stomping.
While some people may not care - and do it anyway for the PPs, they will slowly cause the loss of the war for their side.

Fair point, but one that will not change as long as you pay PP for veterancy.
And, as PP is based to be gained and lost frequently, this wont change (well, not drastically)

However, the Vet bonuses are being revamped to make them more attractive - yet that will add to their 'holding back' of vet units.
Again, there is no reason to risk them - except when the Warmap enters.

Yet.
Commander bonuses will be added sometime soon - Training Advantages first.

Bonuses do nothing?  Oooo k.
You are correct, I cant help newer players 'play better' as skill can never be helped - but I can increase the odds that an equally skilled player who plays from time to time, vs a 'Grinder' will have better odds.

1. There was one in discussion in EiR which was 'agreed' upon to take off once EiRR is released. I won't raise any names here.


2. Thanks for the explanation. Is it possible to put up a list of known problems/issues and what the developers are working to solve? That way people can refer to it instead of making new threads etc.

The larger PP must be really substantial to warrant the very possible loss of special troops & veterancy.


3. Well, then this will have to be how you guys design & handle the PP system then.


4.Refer to "2."


5. If you put it that way, fine. I agree it does help those who don't have as much time to dedicate to gaming in facing off against the top players.

However the people concerned here are nubs who gets stacked so horrendously that they can still lose with the most imba doctrines etc.

make something like exp and pp gain depends on winning % compared to your opponents AND your teammates

What we should do is; People with a higher rank are have their Population reduced by 25% and that'll increase to 75% depending on how much the rank gap is.

Which runs us into the problem of smurfing/griefing. Gah tough to balance such things. Make newb advantages too good then griefers can mess around, make them too weak and it's as good as not there.

If community ever gets big enough this will be less prominent, but till then -.-

Yeah when theres like 4 people in the launcher waiting for a game, being picky is not an issue.

"The Ultimate incentive, will be when the Warmap enters.  You will gain higher outcomes vs players of same or better skill than you would newb stomping.
While some people may not care - and do it anyway for the PPs, they will slowly cause the loss of the war for their side."


How so ?

When warmap comes people will be more than ever willing to stack and perform well, lossing or winning the war wont mean much as their ego comes first.
And what will happen to the players that cause the loss of the war for their side through this? Are they supposed to be marginalized, will people start to avoid them and whine and complain ? And will that be any good ?
Cause in the end it will mean that winning games with 30 - 0 streaks = losing war.

How about :

a) Implement a different system for ranking people. Stacking exists because of the way players are valued and get aknowledged. Maybe this needs to change or modified.
A system that will take in mind helping your faction in campaign, proving yourself, getting pps, xp while not having to stack against new people.

B) Assign a group of players in a battlegroup, give benefits for them playing together. Group should be rotated and changed constantly.
Assign small disadvantages for people of different battle groups playing together constantly, like games not giving pps for time period. No advancement in rank, vet % loss when lossing etc.

Some thoughts.

Then lets also have meeting engagements, that will not influence war campaign, or if so in a slightly way.

Cant wait for these noob bonuses, if i see some stackers ill go make a new account, get a few mates to do it aswell and spank the stackers rotten.

Rofl.... you people need to go back and read *again* the Secrets Revealed threads, forget about having "agressive bonuses" like strafes or bombing runs haha..

Hes gonna spank the stackers by dropping roflmaopwn 30 cals and mortars of doom on us.

 You win some and you lose some, if your suppose to be a good player but only beat new players what does that say to how good you are?

 If you are that good you dont need to stack ..

 1 other thing I have noticed is that some people when playing with new players dont give advise they just wait till things go bad and start blaming the new guy ..
 If you are a experienced player that has played the map before give some advise about the map and as to what tactics you are using before the game starts just because you know the map and game like the back of your hand does not mean the new guy will..

 Rocksitter

I hated when people gave me advice, i just didnt reply or it would be "stfu u prick i know what im doing"

Maybe thats just me

Well if people don't want to be helped there is not much that can be done. They can not listen to advise as long as they do not whine afterwards.

Thats just silly dude... If ur opponent is willing to give you some friendly and helpful advise after a game, you should take the opportunity to learn something from a player thats probroably more experienced than yourself.

Being a sore loser and telling him to "GTFO" just doesnt help for shit, and is bad attitude in general. If thats the way u treat people who wants to help you, then PLZ stop posting in any of the balance threads since u obviously dont even wanna try to handle the problems ur having before crying NERF NERF NERF.

I think he meant teamates during a game, I found that kinda annoying too.  (Oddly, I don't mind taking orders, hmm)

Yes teammates, and its shit like move that sherman up there, right into the 4 paks that just raped your sherman? no thanks.

Then you get into the score screen and you have a gazillion points when they have 5k :o

Sometimes playing with unfamiliar players punishes you badly. I prefer playing with those people I know play in a way doesnt bother me or is detrimental to my units/gameplay. Even against other poor players, playing with a guy who sits at his spawn repairing tanks or lets your units hold the frontline alone can cause you to lose tons of vet or otherwise gives you a hard time. Especially when its obvious that the only reason this is being done is to preserve or vet up his/her own units.

My vet 3 nebel, vet 2 mortar, vet 2 pak, vet 2 grens all died in a game because a certain player after being told that it was not fun or acceptable for me kept repairing his unvetted tanks outside his spawn or letting me be double-teamed by the opposing players/failed to field forces when I was being attacked. That is not fun at all for anyone who experiences it and these players I therefore avoid and not in any way recommend to other players to play with.

I do not mind losing vet or games, I do mind players who knowingly give you a hard time by their ingame behaviour. When I lose vet or games on top of this and I know it was unneccessary, it annoys me. Recently I have taken a couple of chances with unfamiliar players because there are so many new players and while some of them are very friendly and will do their best, a few others are just plain ignorant and disregard any sound advice you give them. Don't be surprised if you're not wanted or invited to a game when its commonly known you operate in such ways as a player ingame, its your own fault.

Laggers, noobs, griefers.. you can go on the opposing team, except for laggers, you can go get a job and buy a decent internet connection.

tl:dr

Hows your Paeter.

zzzzzz