COH: Europe In Ruins

In my honest honest opinion, I really think for a doctrine specific unit that must be unlocked the churchhill is very weak. It is slow, making it not able to escape engagements well, second it does practically nothing to units in buildings (Like HMGs) Making it a very poor support tank, Third the churchhill's gun has terrible penetration and cannot hit light vehicles that are moving very well at all..about the only thing going for the churchhill is its armor but with the Pak's crazy penetration bonuses its negated too.. overall I really love it, its just a weak tank for 12 pop cap that can't do much more then absorb some hits. This is not a complaint or whine thread, this is a a discussion if people think the Churchhill needs a buff.

It is, however, many of the RE doctrine abilities buff the Churchill MKIV specifically. We'll have to see how it plays out.

Where were you when Mal and I were pushing for the Churchill boost =)

Obviously not here  ;)

But anyways, yes the 75mm upgun which is a T2 unlock will make it more useful..but will it be able to stand up to a P4 with skirts?
Anyway other then that hull down which really isn't a buff is the only thing I can think of that buffs churchhills

Alright here is something to think about..just thought about it heh..PE and brits both have infantry support tanks.. obviously the church is doctrinal but the IST isn't..the P4 IST is x3 more effective at supporting infantry, and yes im sure the P4IST is probably a bit more costly but really I would rather pay more for an effective churchhill that does its job supporting infy then get something that soaks up a couple shots from a pak and can't escape, yes I left out the fact that churchhills have slightly better penetration but with that crazy doctrine ability that upguns the P4 IST and makes it pretty much invincible how does the churchhill compare?  :'(

the 75 mm will be a cromwell gun.

Oh great a cromwell gun! so pretty much a slower moving cromwell with a bigger target to hit and something that still can't stand up to a P4 -.-

You underestimate the Cromwell gun, it's got insane penetration.
People say it's better against infantry... I heartily disagree, I use it against panthers than against shreks any day.

Eh cromwells can't even stand up to a P4 so a cromwell gun on a churchhill is gonna be able to stand up against a panther? I don't really think it'll work  ::)

If it had a higher priority then infantry in regards to HMG's then it would atleast soak fire from the troops. but because no one would ever target a tank over infantry in reality thats kinda useless. The churchill is a decent tank. but your probably better off buying the later variants instead. Like the Churchill croc! ummm nom nom nom halftrack dudes!

LOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLLLLLLLLOOOOOOOOOOOOL LLL

Unless something is seriously fucked up, crom´s gun can´t penetrate stug armor, never, and sometimes p4 armor.

Yes was just about to say the cromwell can't penetrate much at all, most of my shots are bounces when I attempt to engage a P4 let alone a stug

i think i played u a few times and uh...you have to improve your micro with every unit. when this happened, you have another point of view, also of your churchills.

you mustnt use churchills to kill tanks, its and infantry support, i repeat, support tank. use it to break through enemy lines together with your uber bren tommies, the tank shock ability is great. it has a very strong frontal armor which makes it easy to keep it alive while pudhing forwards.
so: the MK4 is a nice tank imo, but your supposed to not use it without support. it needs suppoirt and it supports.

Do you even read these threads you post in aloha? I DO SUPPORT IT, IT does not to a good job of breaking through enemy lines because its incredibly slow, a pak could be facing the wrong direction for a minute with the churchhill in LoS and could turn around and kill it.
Anyways aloha, saying a unit is perfectly fine my micro just needs working on is complete trash, its incredibly slow, it does a poor job of supporting infantry etc

And also just checked price list and the P4 IST is 305 MP 205 Fuel
and the churchhill is 420 MP and 260 fuel for a much less effective unit at what its supposed to do, and churchhill is doctrinal..

then its just your micro, you do something wrong.i guess

.....Why do I even bother with talking to aloha
And aloha, the churchhill doesn't have tank shock currently.
Meaning you obviously haven't used it before meaning, you are obviously biased on the OPPOSITE side so, really don't post in a thread about a unit you know absolutely nothing about  :-*

Churchill is a big fail tank, just don't use it without flamethrower.

u gotta try it out when implemented. maybe your opinion will change

Aloha, i've played enough vCoH to know how tank shock works, THE only reason it was good in vCoH is because you got a heavily armored tank in 3 command points, it obviously doesn't matter in EIR:R because that benefit is gone.

well guys you know SOME thing is bad when you got a tester telling us to skip over a T1 -_-

I need to get my churchill in a game with desert rats to see if it fairs any better. but generally the only thing the church really has going for it is its heavy crush to take down hedges and surprise enemies. i do believe last war we were arguing that the church should get the the cromwell gun standard. The most I've ever killed with it were a radio scout car and a marder that I busted through a hedge to get to. but honestly the churchill sucks, and everyone knows it.

The 75mm is going to be the sherman's, not the cromwell's.
I.e churchills will become much better against infantry and perform satisfactory against lower level tanks.

like 1(or more) kill per shot? because cromwells perform quite well imo
ppl just use overdrive and trying to hit while at fullspeed xD
i hope u see this unknownz

ooh! sherman gun! im all about that =D

but that still doesn't change that the standard churchill is a pos

also everyone knows aloha  doesn't actually play in a physical sense, he just reads stats and stuff and imagines units fighting each other purely 1v1 in his head.

cromwells perform quite well? What they perfom well as tank wreckages to ninja storms, paks, P4s, panthers, shrecks ETC. aloha you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about

Actualy, the cromwell's only adversary is the stug - that tank it almost never penetrates, but panther and P4 frontal armor is defnately not a problem at all. I don't know if there's something screwy with the penetration modifiers, but I personaly find less use for a cromwell vs infantry than I find them at anti-tank duty.

Looking at CoH stats, it tells me cromwells should penetrate panthers not more than once every 5 shots at point blank, but they definately penetrate more often.
Vs stugs, it seems about right - 1 in 3 shots will penetrate. 1 in 2 will penetrate vs a P4.
It also says that the sherman splash is worse than the cromwell's splash, with the sherman being slightly more accurate at actualy shooting infantry.

So, I dunno, maybe the stats are screwy, I can't use corsix to check it out due to my version being screwy :(.

So the sherman gun on churchhill is the upgunned version or regular?

75mm, so it's the regular one.

Yar, what he said. RSE buffs Churchill in several ways (more accurate while not moving, 75mm upgun from a Sherman, captain-like aura bonuses, increased speed and accuracy on the move by 25%, et c.) which should make them more appealing.


A P4 beats a churchill, barely, in most fights. With a 75mm Sherman gun the Churchill will win almost 100% of the fights against a P4 and with some health to spare as well. In addition, it has superior armor and thus hasn't the need for expensive skirts, and the Sherman main gun is excellent against infantry even on the move (unlike the Cromwell gun).


The Cromwell is a very situational tank. It has absolutely awful accuracy while on the move, but it is also incredibly fast - you have to choose which one you want to use for any given situation, as firing while moving is not going to get the job done. I've had a Cromwell at nearly point blank from about half health just annihilate two PE schrek squads and a fallschirmjager squad and it limped off the field at like 10% health. That's because I stopped it rather than kept it moving. Alternatively you can always just run away if you can't outfight whatever is attacking you.

er.. the regular sherman gun rarely penetrates a P4 in my experiences, am I wrong about this?

Vanilla churchills are just terrible. They don't really fit any role, being terrible at assaulting positions (speed) killing infantry (slow reloading weak gun) or tanks (lol).

i play every faction quite intensely atm

i just watched a broadcast where u tried to flank with your church (without support) and u failed hard..
axis were not good

Ok aloha post a replay where you use the churchill with pro skillz and own stuff instead of saying you do that and that.

A vanilla Sherman loses to a vanilla P4 almost always, but the P4 is usually very hurt.

A vanilla Churchill does about the same.

So taking the best aspect of the Churchill (armor/HP) and the best aspect of the Sherman (comparatively, the gun) and putting them together probably results in a win pretty easily.

Do you realize how much I screw around aloha? Thats all I had left and what was I supposed to do camp it? Sometimes I just randomly do stupid things with it? I can get a churchhill with 50 XP in a couple rounds if I baby it enough and play the right opponents lol
I simply suicided it because I had nothing better to do with it and no XP gained with it.

Just stop using rabbit foot, I killed many croms with my panther, and the stats are not wrong I won many times with 10% hp panther against full hp croms, it's just matter fate :p.

Well yeah Riki, I'm a tester, not an idiot. If something isn't effective I won't use it. The only things that can sway that opinion are hilarious fun, or testing purposes. I used the Churchill it wasn't fun or effective. I moved along. Besides in the grand scheme of things whats the use unlock all 3 Churchill Variants if you only plan on using 1 or 2 of them? You gotta plan this stuff ahead of time

so u wanna make everything effective in every aspect?? nice one.
every unit is effective against something else

And the churchhill isn't effective against anything..period

I like using them to crush things. Hedges and infantry alike.

oh yeah i forgot..heavy crush
and if u purchase the mine crap thing its veryvery good at crushing.

another 50 munitions to be able to crush units a couple more feet away from them? The only time you could do that anyway is if the infy don't have shrecks, otherwise you are suiciding

schrecks dont penetrate well frontal MK armor

i think you misinterpreted what i said burn  ???

and right there you only further prove the point we are making. the churchill isn't effective for it's cost, so it needs some kind of change.

oh noes! Now you know how we will with zook's vs well all tanks.

scheck vs churchhill pentration = 0.529 still better than zook vs p4.  churchill is a heavy tank with a sucky gun.

the churchill was an engineer tank, it was used to suck in fire from tanks, expose at guns and to clear obstacles. It's not meant to be a front line tank.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Churchill_tank

Actualy, sucking up fire from enemy tanks, ATGs and clearing obstacles sounds a lot like a front line duty to me ;).

I realize what it does but for 12 pop cap (In battallion screen I heard its supposed to be 10..)
Anyway it really doesn't do a good job of absorbing fire rofl, yes in real life im sure it did a good job but there aren't exactly bunker spams out there for churchhills to take care of and one pak easily kills it so I really don't see the point in them, I think they are a cool tank just really pointless in EiR for cost and pop cap.

Just wait till aloha comes in this thread, we'll hear stories of his single churchil omgwtf pwning 7 panthers and 3 KTs at once.

It does a good job in deflecting a lot of shots. It's hard to penetrate it with something else than a panther from my experience.

Who wants a tank that can just deflect some shots and with a one time repair kit really I see no point in the churchhill.. for EiR at least, maybe with 75mm upgun I might see a change..

that are people who use fireflies from max distance to snipe enemy tanks or people that can counter mortars without heavy artillery

maybe one day you will belong to these people too

Bigdick, you are as bad as aloha when it comes to personal attacks, THIS HAS ABSOLUTELY NOTHING TO DO WITH HOW I COUNTER A MORTAR, ITS A DISCUSSION ABOUT THE CHURCHHILL NEEDING A BUFF, a pro with a churchhill isn't going to find it much more effective then a noob with one so please.. stop posting on a thread you don't understand  ::)

And like i've said to aloha, post a replay of you wtfpwning everything with a super expensive pop cap heavy churchhill and I might believe it not needing a buff, all I was thinking is a maybe a little bit better splash damage or accuracy increased and reload time decreased a little bit to make it more effective at supporting infantry.

keep it calm, or dasnoob will visit you all!

wahhh please no, tell him we're discussing this thread for politely!  :'( :'(

tbh, the AVRE does a far better job at soaking up damage, take down hedges and do some real damage to the enemy. :o

AVRE one shot decrews an 88 and takes the gun down to 100 hp.

Its very useful these days.

my staghounds are way more cost effective and take up less pop then a churchhill. ill be furious if the upgun on it makes it nothing short of amazing. if the churchhill had a higher rof or some kind of mounted gun it would be great, you could probably put it at 8 pop and still not see it get used too often.


its funny because as axis when i see them ive never gone "aw crap a normal churchhill!"

also why is tank shock gone? you know what, if they just gave it a really high suppression from its gun instead of an actual tank shock upgrade that would work pretty great.

Yeah what he said  >:(

I recently purchased the churchill to try it, and I must say i fully regret it...  :'(

It can´t hit the wall of a barn even if it was inside of it...

Btw, after reading this thread, Aloha has become my new idol!

When you get the upgun it'll basically be a 10 pop tougher unupgunned sherman.
How that is not going to be amazing is beyond me :P.

I'll keep my fingers crossed :) I will try it when the upgun is complete.

(And just a quick/noob question... Why ain´t the "Tank schock" ability implemented).

But until then it's a 10 pop waste of space? That would be like making storms a T1 but making all their upgrades a T2 choice.

By the way unknown, churchhill claims to be 12 pop cap in battallion screen meaning whatever box its in has 2 pop wasted..

This is an unknown quote stolen from another thread.

So...is the Chuchill 10pop or 12pop? I am confused.  ???

Its supposed to be 10 pop cap but shows up as 12 in battallion screen in launcher

Launcher population thing fixed.

Awesome, thanks!

but when will tank shock be implemented??

Tank Shock was in previously, but it was bugged in that it let you suppress retreating units, IIRC.  It'll come when it comes.

ah alright  8)