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Author Topic: [PE] The PE "issue(s)"  (Read 1138 times)
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TheVolskinator Offline
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« on: September 02, 2018, 10:10:03 am »

How on earth do you push as PE? I've gotten multiple suggestions from Lothen that boil down to "don't fight fair", "drive fast and attack where they aren't", and "don't try to take ground with PGs".

Trying to make aggressive moves with LVs is more or less impossible in the current meta (HHAT out the wazoo, mines everywhere, and ATG walls backed up by 2-3 MGs per player). As soon as you're spotted, the blob of HHAT moves to intercept. Short of blasting them with a Hummel, I'm finding it hard to see tools that can break up Allied HHAT blobs. You're not helped by the fact that some of PE's LVs (looking at you LATHT) are...well, basically useless. On paper, they're great (4 pop AT platform for cheap? Ye!!!), in practice, they're just...blargh.

PGs are utterly vulnerable to MGs, so you can't try and dislodge the enemy on foot. They're also not the greatest for screening your vehicles from enemy HHAT unless you throw G.43s on them.

1) Trying to push with LVs is a nightmare.
2) Trying to push with PGs is a nightmare.
   2a) PGs are disappointing at pushing, holding ground, and screening. This is despite having the durability of Grens (excellent) and the effective firepower of Volks (fair).
   2b) PE has massive problems trying to hold any of the ground it's taken as a result.
3) The MHT feels insufficient for harassing duty.
4) The Hotchkiss Stuka is blech unless used in pairs--though intended to be this way, that shit isn't ideal now that I'm not on the receiving end.
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NightRain Offline
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Posts: 3891



« Reply #1 on: September 02, 2018, 11:56:05 am »

PE doesn't push, it flanks and overwhelms enemy HHAT with combat vehicles. Its infantry is shit, no nades, no reliable anti tank and no smoke and poor damage. The only saving grace is that you can shove them inside a HT and even then you want something reliable that doesn't cost over 100 mun to ensure it can fight in equal terms with other infantry units.

Because the infantry is shit that can't achieve any given tasks like say Grens can. No source of healing is one factor to this, no smoke, instantly suppressed and just no saving graces that are worth a mention.. Only SE can bring a AoE that can wipe out a MG team without them just packing up and redeploying elsewhere, possibly..., you don't hold territory either, maybe if you use mgs or failschrimjägers can you do this but even then it is just how about no scenario.

If you want to make LATHT useful, just change its armor to something that isn't paper that it is vanilla armor, remove FF and give it 60 range. Boom. Allied LV units are no longer as dangerous as they are now and look, an efficient AT platform that can hit LVs and Tank destroyers and bounce anything heavier to death. Make sure you reduce anti infantry abilities or don't if you don't want to. It becomes something good afterwards.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #2 on: September 02, 2018, 12:44:33 pm »

Main problem with PE is indeed their heavy reliance on light vehicles in a very AT-saturated environment. I personally find multiple repair kits by default would help address this to a large extent, but due to the way COH handles vehicles they're still on the whole more micro-intensive and more difficult to really master than any of the other factions. That's not to say they're a worse faction however - we should embrace the assymetric gameplay they bring to the table, though they could probably do with some improvements.

I tend to actually play them more defensively and have been fairly succesful with that - Marders, MHT + ATHT mixed with some infantry/support units can provide an effective area control. I don't use a lot of ITHTs because like Speedy says, these can only really shine when flanking. Playing PE offensively means flanking and supporting WM pushes unless someone's bringing heavy hitter units like the Jagd or blobs of vetted fully-outfitted FJs.

On PE in general however, and linking back to their issues:
1. I really think especially with repair kits making a comeback, PE light vehicles (half-tracks) should get 2 - 3 uses/purchase as the halftracks are central to the PE's modus operandi. This will go a long way in rendering PE half-track strats more effective in the EIR AT-heavy environment. The kits should be fairly inexpensive as well. Doctrines could still allow repairing on the move or +1 use.

2. The Mortar HT is in a decent place but its effectiveness is really map dependent. It quite vulnerable in a heavy AT environment and doesn't have a whole lot of range to boot so requires a lot more babysitting than your average mortar unit in any other faction. (see above suggestion on repair kits) Should also give it smoke barrage to support infantry pushes.

3. The base hotchkiss stuka is indeed not very useful. Far too expensive for the few rockets it shoots, the general inefectiveness of those rockets and the long cooldowns.

4. The Hummel's in a pretty bad place at the moment and needs some love. I'm sure Dire will be able to give a better assessment on why that is, but it's really a poor-performer, even with the doctrinal buffs. The Priest, a comparable unit by all accounts, fares a lot better.

5. I don't think there's any fundamental problems with PGs. How are they any worse than blitz players running only volksgrenadiers or WM builds with gren spam? They're very versatile and have tons of different upgrades across the different doctrines. They're durable, have sprint, AT grenades, have a variant with panzerschrecks and MP44s, incendiary nades, .... The problem is rather with the other options on the field not being able to suitable support them in an offensive role.

6. LATHTs focus fire is one of the strongest abilities in the game against vetted allied infantry attacking your lines, so the unit's definitely not useless by any account. Treadbreaker is a bit too pricey however, and focus fire is on a long cooldown with the unit not able to do much else in between (its base attack is not very effective and you would never bring it on to counter just LVs)

7. Flammengrenadiers were a good addition but they're currently too expensive for what they offer. I understand they were cheaper before but nerfed because of how effective the combination of flammengrenadiers + IHTs was, but nerfing the base unit itself doesn't strike me as the adequate solution to address that problem (as you're also making them undesirable to run without IHTs)

8. Let's also not forget the doctines. The Sorched Earth doctrine is probably one of the poorest in the game at the moment and could use some revisions to fully bring it on par with the others.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #3 on: September 14, 2018, 10:24:12 pm »

Ok so heres my Assessment.

Please take under advisement, that I have been away from the mod a very long time and only have a handful of matches under your new systems(repair blows!) This, however is an asset I believe in considering the issues facing the Panzer Elite.


Step 1: Abandon any pretense of a theme or factional motif. vCoH Panzer Elite Does not translate well into EiR(as vCoH in general does not translate well into EiR) What is a very effective platform early game in CoH as the 222 or IHT gets shit on in EiR. as pointed out HHAT is prevalent, and when it isn't Hard Armour(tanks) is.

Now this isn't to say PE can't fit a theme, just don't rely on it as hard and fast rules for factional balance.

Now thats out of the way, Obvious flaws.
Every form of hard Anti-tank requires fuel. Marder, 50mm HT. These are the units that occupy the slot of ATG for PE(I know because I was on the team when we put in the 50mm HT) From a balance perspective, this is unacceptable. Tank busters are not Hard AT, they get out ranged. what this means is that a composition consisting of exactly what you're designed to fight can kill you. This problem is exacerbated by the fact that vehicles in CoH have terrible pathing and target acquisition. How many times has your marder YOLO charged down a road when it lost sight of the target?

Specifically in reference to the Marder, the Lock down bonus could be better or more unique. As it stands, the only real good lockdown is behind a Roadblock.

What this amounts to is PE players having to make a choice between taking enough Antitank in vehicle form, or adding in some exotic units like Panthers, P4 IST and Hummel/Jagd. As it stands right now those units are rare due to the need to bring enough AT options.

The good news is we can address some of these issues without changing unit stats. The bad news is, PE needs an ATG, an HMG, but not a Mortar.

PE needs an Infantry based Anti Tank option that doesn't soak fuel. That's where an ATG comes in(use the WM Pak for now, decide on a unique ATG if you want later) This helps prevent them from suffering those full map withdrawls. An HMG is needed as every faction should have Suppression and the HMG is a fair way of doing this. But if you'd prefer to bring back the Support Grenadier that'd be fine too. as long as it's suppression on an infantry platform.

These 2 units in combination provide the foundation for every successful faction in EiR

The Mortar Halftrack is pretty good at what it does, I don't see a need to change it right away.

Some things I would change.

Incendiary grenades. These things just... gah. even doctrine buffs don't fix this. You spend munitions on Grenades to alter a fight on demand. These grenades just don't cut it. I could see them being altered to fit a niche role, but honestly I think you just gotta replace them. It's either that or their impact damage gets to a point where you might as well have replaced them.

Sprint Gotta have something to separate the Axis infantry. As pointed out, they survive like grens but don't have the damage. My proposal would be to remove any negative penalties of Sprint. Just have it as a speed buff for 5-7 seconds. If you want to buff it through doctrines then sure do that separately. The idea being that, PE infantry can still support their roster of LV's and tanks through aggressive infantry movements. I'd remove the cost of sprint(or make it cheap enough to take) so that every infantry squad can win races. Keep the duration of sprint low so it's not an Auto win versus HMG's but forces opponents to keep on their toes with regards to flanks.

Marder Why is this 175 Fuel?

Ultimately, what we've decided along the EiRR road, is that PE is an aggressive faction. But ironically, we've restricted them in this. Their units have Lock down, which makes them stationary, their units can't chase(try hunting with a Marder) and not only from the stats side but the launcher side. We've priced their Anti-Tank options so heavily and they are 'Must picks' that we've neutered any hope of them picking more exotic Fuel units.

I'll add to this as it Develops
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Tachibana Offline
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« Reply #4 on: September 14, 2018, 10:53:58 pm »

Specifically in reference to the Marder, the Lock down bonus could be better or more unique. As it stands, the only real good lockdown is behind a Roadblock.

Just putting a clarification here as I think there may be some misinformation floating about:

Marder lockdown is currently
+30% sight range
-25% reload
+35% penetration
+10% damage
-35% received accuracy
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3891



« Reply #5 on: September 15, 2018, 12:02:38 am »

Misinformation is that 50mm HT costs fuel. It doesn't. It is the PE PAK38 on wheels. It isn't good but it is solid at what it does and fails at. If it dies it can not be recrewed. At most it can be used as a temporary heavy cover.

Plus, marder is the best tank destroyer in the game when it comes to fighting tanks. that is why it is 175 fuel.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #6 on: September 15, 2018, 09:15:23 am »

Misinformation is that 50mm HT costs fuel. It doesn't. It is the PE PAK38 on wheels. It isn't good but it is solid at what it does and fails at. If it dies it can not be recrewed. At most it can be used as a temporary heavy cover.

Plus, marder is the best tank destroyer in the game when it comes to fighting tanks. that is why it is 175 fuel.

The 50mm is still just a Halftrack. and when fighting a vehicle or tank(what it's supposed to be most effective against) it loses, even cost for cost, they lose.

What makes ATG's so valuable is that it's not a singular investment. You have this thing that fights tanks from range, and sure it has Arcs to face, but aside from a few specialist units ATG's dont die in a single hit from tanks. Additionally, and most importantly the ATG is a recurring investment in that if it gets decrewed you can toss some troops on it again. the 50mm HT does not have either of these advantages. When it dies, it's gone. and Tanks and light vehicles are very effective damage dealers against it.


Just putting a clarification here as I think there may be some misinformation floating about:

Marder lockdown is currently
+30% sight range
-25% reload
+35% penetration
+10% damage
-35% received accuracy


Sight range, meh. It's got enough range that it needs spotters.
Reload, agreed good.
Penetration, again, handy, but the base Penetration really needs the lockdown
Damage, again handy, ever bit counts but it doesnt change many fights(I'm talking time to kill)
-35% recevied accuracy, this ones the worst one. you could double this number and it still wouldn't change much. Most AT weapons in the game hit on a scatter anyway. Thats why I said you need a roadblock, something to stop the scatter rolls.
« Last Edit: September 15, 2018, 09:18:29 am by brn4meplz » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
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« Reply #7 on: September 15, 2018, 12:17:54 pm »

Sight range is fantastic in the real world, where scouting might not always be present.

The only weapon that reliably hits on scatter is RRs, unless you're at barrel-stuffing distance. 0.3 rec. acc. would be utterly OP.

My response to this is "no". The Marder and its lockdown are fine. The 50 mil will get a looking-at.
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NightRain Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 3891



« Reply #8 on: September 15, 2018, 01:15:25 pm »

The 50mm is still just a Halftrack. and when fighting a vehicle or tank(what it's supposed to be most effective against) it loses, even cost for cost, they lose.

What makes ATG's so valuable is that it's not a singular investment. You have this thing that fights tanks from range, and sure it has Arcs to face, but aside from a few specialist units ATG's dont die in a single hit from tanks. Additionally, and most importantly the ATG is a recurring investment in that if it gets decrewed you can toss some troops on it again. the 50mm HT does not have either of these advantages. When it dies, it's gone. and Tanks and light vehicles are very effective damage dealers against it.



Sight range, meh. It's got enough range that it needs spotters.
Reload, agreed good.
Penetration, again, handy, but the base Penetration really needs the lockdown
Damage, again handy, ever bit counts but it doesnt change many fights(I'm talking time to kill)
-35% recevied accuracy, this ones the worst one. you could double this number and it still wouldn't change much. Most AT weapons in the game hit on a scatter anyway. Thats why I said you need a roadblock, something to stop the scatter rolls.

Most things it fights against don't have 60 range mate, try outranging the enemy and see what happens. It is tricky against a Firefly but against the rest it would win with proper scouting.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #9 on: September 15, 2018, 02:28:51 pm »

I'm aware of that. It's a good unit.

It is however, the only reliable AT option PE has, which is what my initial complain is in regards too.

I'm tired of putting 90% of my fuel into Marders.
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Unkn0wn Offline
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« Reply #10 on: September 15, 2018, 03:20:19 pm »

Yea, then again if schrecks were more reliable this wouldnt be such an issue. Perhaps theyre too expensive to perform the role of mainline PE mun based AT? Or maybe tankbusters should just receive a buff with them.

I mean what's the alternative other than giving PE a atg. We already gave them a sniper too. I feel too much symmetry detracts from the faction's uniqueness.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #11 on: September 15, 2018, 05:53:13 pm »

Remove the Sniper. They don't need it. Put it in a doctrine for the fetishists.

The Schrek, even if it was vastly improved is s stopgap. it's designed to prevent people driving all over your ATG's. Well PE doesn't have that issue because they have no ATG's.

We can still fill the required roles with asymmetrical units. The Support grenadier is a decent example of this, and we can give them an ATG in stats, but we can make it look like something else.

I'd argue that we could fix their glaring weaknesses and make them more unique at the same time if we actually wanted to. I'm convinved people are feeling too nostalgic to make positive change
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NightRain Offline
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Posts: 3891



« Reply #12 on: September 16, 2018, 12:21:43 am »

Yea, then again if schrecks were more reliable this wouldnt be such an issue. Perhaps theyre too expensive to perform the role of mainline PE mun based AT? Or maybe tankbusters should just receive a buff with them.

I mean what's the alternative other than giving PE a atg. We already gave them a sniper too. I feel too much symmetry detracts from the faction's uniqueness.

As for faction uniqueness, I believe having 2x Schrecks on tank busters as non-doctrine upgrade would go long way in their favour. This means powerful clowncars and powerful close quater support vs rushing vehicles.
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brn4meplz Offline
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« Reply #13 on: September 16, 2018, 12:09:36 pm »

As for faction uniqueness, I believe having 2x Schrecks on tank busters as non-doctrine upgrade would go long way in their favour. This means powerful clowncars and powerful close quater support vs rushing vehicles.

Thats something I could get behind. Long as its not stupid expensive in Mu. We're at a point where every bit helps
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Unkn0wn Offline
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Posts: 18194


« Reply #14 on: September 16, 2018, 02:23:46 pm »

Again, really should try giving PE vehicles multiple repairs uses on one purchase vs other factions. That would help them a ton and allow people to genuinely run a vehicle based company that is competitive in the AT heavy environment. Maybe even repair while moving as default, certainly for things like 50mm HTs.
« Last Edit: September 16, 2018, 03:00:53 pm by Unkn0wn » Logged
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