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Author Topic: Patch R041  (Read 3501 times)
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Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2572


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #15 on: January 22, 2019, 03:43:41 pm »

Whatís the fuss about snipers? Get a proper counter and do a push, not jus send 3 bikes no brainer thing. Snipers never was and will be a problem until each player takes responsibility bring counters. Itís a basic thing to do just like having minesweeper in ur company or an ATG. I love like guys QQ about certain unit and do not buy counters ever, leaving to teammates deal with annoying things like snipers/mines and QQing after lost game and blaming units instead of themselves for lack of common sense building proper companies
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I feel like if Smokaz and Shab met up it would be a 50/50 tossup to see which one of them robbed the other first.
Tries to convince people he's a good guy,says things like this. Scumbag Shab.
Bear Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 887



« Reply #16 on: January 22, 2019, 03:52:23 pm »

Whatís the fuss about snipers? Get a proper counter and do a push, not jus send 3 bikes no brainer thing. Snipers never was and will be a problem until each player takes responsibility bring counters. Itís a basic thing to do just like having minesweeper in ur company or an ATG. I love like guys QQ about certain unit and do not buy counters ever, leaving to teammates deal with annoying things like snipers/mines and QQing after lost game and blaming units instead of themselves for lack of common sense building proper companies

You can not understand it because it is not a problem for you. For many other players it will be a problem and that will hurt EIR.
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Brothers stand tall!

Erst die Heimat, dann die Ferne.
Erst die Erde, dann die Sterne.
Shabtajus Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2572


The very best player of one of the four factions.

« Reply #17 on: January 22, 2019, 04:03:00 pm »

You can not understand it because it is not a problem for you. For many other players it will be a problem and that will hurt EIR.


Fair enough. Then again, itís not rocket science we are doing here and we have like 10-12 active players atm, so if somebody runs a certain unit based company, well it will not be a surprise next game and you will bring counter. If no, all its on you for not doing so. Its not a knock on u Bear, nor its on other players, i am just saying that some ppl never learn and they release there frustrations on blamin others instead of learning from mistakes
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Bear Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 887



« Reply #18 on: January 22, 2019, 04:24:48 pm »

Fair enough. Then again, itís not rocket science we are doing here and we have like 10-12 active players atm, so if somebody runs a certain unit based company, well it will not be a surprise next game and you will bring counter. If no, all its on you for not doing so. Its not a knock on u Bear, nor its on other players, i am just saying that some ppl never learn and they release there frustrations on blamin others instead of learning from mistakes

Good point Mister EIR elite Gamer.

I want to tell you a story. My ATGs crews were constantly shot away. By the time my unit arrived for recrewing, the ATGs were already destroyed.

So I had to call new ATGs. It will take some time until these come. Only these ATGs were fast again without crews again and everything started again.

The Area was firmly of the opinion I had no ATGs at all the time and was very angry. Smiley

That's not funny!

I have something else to say about cloaking, to.

Even though I never use it and only slowly started using it in my last plays with Blitz-Coy. These units in real were specialized in approaching undetected. There was distraction attacks, wrong uniforms and much more used what in a game like EIR can not really be considered. Jumping from cover to cover does not make up for that. Then more of a capability that a unit for a few seconds is not automatically recognized as an enemy unit.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 04:26:19 pm by Bear » Logged
ChetnikVoyvoda Offline
EIR Recruit
Posts: 15


« Reply #19 on: January 22, 2019, 04:39:19 pm »

It is true that the Allies have to use either Recoiless Rifles on Airborne, or rely on Tank Destroyers and ATGs. In your ATG scenario, you overextended with ATGs by relying on them on your frontlines, or were picked off entirely to be unable to defend them and lost your position because you had no Sniper-Counters.

No one is approaching coordinated companies in the midst of a literal battle with wrong uniforms and passing undetected. The Austrians in the Napoleonic Era always had a bubble of scouts around their forces to counter any infiltrators, and the Romans and all top level generals always used extensive scouting to spot infiltrators. The protocol is to answer a code word, one which is changed frequently in order to prevent the enemy from acquiring it from interrogating captured prisoners, even if the approaching unit has the same uniform,  and if the password is wrong, the protocol is shoot on sight. No one is walking over open ground invisible. This naive comparison leads perfectly into your bias surrounding Snipers, because you are not a critical thinker in this military regard.



This change means that there will be more snipers and the more snipers are used the less sense it makes to bring ATGs or HMGs to.
Except maybe you can also cloak your ATGs.

With most Docs, this will make it more useful to take more Tank Destroyer (for example, Stug) instead of the ATGs.

And that makes Fuel even more valuable and anti-inf tanks (for example, P4) are used less frequently.

If you still set on ATGs you need more Inf for recrew this atgs or at some point the Map is littered with unoccupied ATGs and HMGs
 These units for recrewing do not need to be heavily armed. This makes Man more valuable than Mun.

I think this is all bad.


The Fuel invested should be directly for countering Snipers. It takes 10 FU per Bike or Jeep. That's 40 FU for a Bike or Jeep rush. PE do not use HMGs or ATGs, other than in Scorched Earth and Tank Hunters, respectively, with these docs having alternatives for these in PE in general. Brits have the Recon Section in Universal Carrier combination which is just as reliable in most cases, sometimes more reliable because of its precision, sometimes less reliable because it can be focus-fired more easily. The investment for these Sniper-Counters is less than that of a Sniper by far.


Your reasoning is exclusively based on not being able to successfully counter enemy Snipers, because no one would follow your logic of considering Manpower more expensive than Munitions because you require to re-crew the half-dozen HMGs and ATGs you just lost to them all being sniped and now being strews everywhere on the battlefield. If you manage to re-crew your field equipment at this point in a hypothetical game scenario, you are still not meeting the cost of a Sniper, because you just used less expensive infantry squads to get a second usage for all of those support weapons, and can consider the cost of those weapons being replenished with being able to use them a second, or third time.


All of these arguments are predicated on not being able to use Sniper-Counters. If you are not using your own Snipers, which I know you, Bear, are not, you can use Sniper-Counters. If you have 2 of these reliable Sniper counters in your company and are still struggling against 1-2 Snipers, then you should practice micro and overall strategy skills.


Specifically, according to Lothen's Balance Flow Chart, you should evaluate:
->Unit:
->Sniper.
->I wanna nerf it.
->What is the intended role of the unit?
->Is that the role I believe it should have?
->Yes, but...
->It does that one thing too well.
->Compared to what?
->Functionally unique.
->Are there functional counters?
->Are there at least 2 counters available to each doctrine?
->Yes. (Bike/ Armed Schwimm/ Jeep rushes, & counter-sniping, with other counters including artillery and pushing aggressively, with vehicles chasing the Sniper rather than relying on a camping defensive strategy without employing Sniper-Counters)
->Its balanced, NugNug.



Lothen said it, not me.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9004


« Reply #20 on: January 22, 2019, 05:46:35 pm »

In all honesty - the rise of the sniper is something that I anticipated years and years ago, in my officially designated role as quartermaster general of EiR.

What made me consider this emergent threat? Well, nerfing Machineguns.

I anticipated from the very get go that making MGs more expensive from their utterly paltry 250 MP 30 MU (ish) costs at the time would mean an immediate change in their use to be more effective by the EIR community. Blame it on me being an economist that understands how incentives work, or a Nostradamus-level idiot savant - but my imagination was always focused on the presumption that a nerf to MGs in terms of cost would lead to an almost immediate spike in their tactical utilisation by all players.

Why is that? Simply because of human nature. If one has an easy, no-micro-required option to deal with more or less any infantry threat at the same cost and half the pop input of a grenadier with a grenade - human nature is to utilize it as much as possible. It is sensible. It is also human nature to use no-brainer solutions in a no-brainer manner. So while the "EiR elite" would use MGs as the uber-powered tools of rape that they were - the rank and file would put them in a church and forget about them till they died.

How many times have you put a 'nilla rifle squad, or even two, in a church to stay there and die for the glory of 'murrica? How many of your volks squads have died trying to fire off a single faust off at an M8, with zero consideration for the letters that the company commanders would have to write home? How often did you try to micro these units for best effect to prevent this waste of life, and the letters being written by the company commanders to the grieving widows on the homefront?

With MGs becoming more expensive, by a large degree, they could no longer be seen as throwaway units. From Rocksitter to yoye101 everyone started to treat them more akin to StuGs or Shermans. Important parts of the offensive force that needed to come in with the rest of the company, leading to a more sophisticated use of their firepower. It also meant that manpower - the oft maligned red headed step-child of EiR resources suddenly became much more valuable. If 4 machineguns suddenly replace 8-9+ squads of volks/rifles, as opposed to just 4 squads of grens the arithmetic of war means that suppressing a squad of infantry once is no longer a good enough justification. So with all these pressures - MGs just became better, despite them nominally being nerfed in price. Heck, the once-mocked .30 cal is now sweared at by many an axis player despite receiving only one buff (+5m range) roughly 3 years ago!

This makes snipers a very, very natural response to the meta-game. With MGs becoming more prevalent on the tactical level (the change of tactics for which prevents just being nuked by retard-charge nades) and at the same time more "juicy" for snipers - the level of surprise I experience at snipers now dominating the meta approaches zero pretty damn quickly. Especially since general use of snipers has been improving among the general populace throughout the years.

The one main issue that I am not sure how to resolve, even as a (by some accounts) relatively experienced player - is what options have been made available to me for countering the sniper specifically over the years. Us, experienced players, have always played by the assumption that snipers without cloak (the Commando sniper most notably, but the FSJ sniper to a degree) are often better than ones that can cloak at will due to being forced into more favourable tactics for sniper survival than their more "free" counterparts. Look at any shoutcast featuring Skaffa between 2010-2013. His (WM) snipers are almost never cloaked. And yet they'll rack up 50+ kills each game, regardless of who he's playing against.

So the recent "nerf" of removing cloak from the WM and US sniper to me are almost a buff. Sure, a capability was dropped - but one that other than super extreme niche cases acted as a noob trap. So now we have a double-whammy of:
1) Snipers that are forced into more effective roles by most players
2) Them having better targets to shoot.

Whereas after more than 10 years of play, the community has rarely evolved in good counters for snipers in general. The 3x Bike rush has been used in 2007-8 as the cornerstone. Back then it was a clear response. Today it is often used, and rarely effective. Other variations such as the bike + puma do exist, but I personally haven't witnessed them as being any better at the tactical level. Typically what overwhelms a sniper is either:

1) A strategic-level assault across a broad front that wins you sufficient ground to win the pop battle.
2) Arty randomly killing the sniper.

The outcomes for gameplay are tied entirely to what the player situations are:

1) Is fun, particularly if you are fighting highly competitive 2v2s for grudgepoints amongst veteran EiR players.
2) Is just boring, where the sniper racks up kills and the other team has no clear counter unless they pull off response 1) regardless.

And, in my view, very little in-between exists. I honestly do not know what the best way to attempt to counter that would be. A part of me says that instead of barring snipers from cloaked movement - perhaps they should be tied entirely to it. Move slowly and cloaked by default, strike at range and get kills - but if you're out of position without support to bail you out - you're fucked. Would this work? I don't know. I'd be more than willing to try this option rather than stupid nerfs like limiting the amount you can buy, their cost (which is already quite high) or ROF (which is finally equalised across the factions).
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TheArea Offline
EIR Member
Posts: 247


« Reply #21 on: January 22, 2019, 07:12:03 pm »

Why is that? Simply because of human nature.

And this is why economists fail, they apply metaphysics to a field where it need not belong.
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ChetnikVoyvoda Offline
EIR Recruit
Posts: 15


« Reply #22 on: January 22, 2019, 08:13:00 pm »

It is an over-nerf to keep Snipers from being able to move at regular speed, even if given the ability to cloak and move, because this would not only buff artillery, it would also nerf the vehicles that rush in and kill a sniper, other than the Jeep or Bike rushes, namely the light vehicles or tanks that rush in and hunt them down. By not being able to cloak and move, there is the vulnerability to being hunted down by these tank and vehicle rushes that are not explicit Sniper-Counters. This occurs very frequently, because the speed of vehicles over infantry gives them the ability to approach the Sniper with avoiding damage behind shot blockers, while having sufficient health to maneuver up to the Sniper with absorbing damage. If the Sniper is able to cloak and move, this makes such vehicle and tank rushes far riskier because they do not have adequate detection. On the other hand, not being able to move at regular speed would nearly certainly condemn Snipers to Allied Howitzers, Hummels, and Calliopes. It will be such a reliable counter to bring such artillery to counter Snipers, that those doctrines lacking it will be nerfed, such as Airborne, Wehr in general, Tank Destroyers, and Luftwaffe. Meanwhile, the short-range Howitzers for Commandos and RSE will also likely be a nerf for these doctrines because of limited anti-Sniper capability compared with their longer-range artillery counterparts.

By being able to cloak and move, there is the advantage of a Sniper being able to take shots at HMGs within the HMGís range, and target the HMG gunners manning the HMG, who are always targeted first, then recloak again before the new gunner can target the Sniper and kill him, which is before the Sniper can take another shot. It is ludicrous to say that the Sniper not having the ability of moving cloak is a gift to new players, because this is simply conjecture.

We should consider that the Sniper has in the fist place already experienced a significant nerf. My suggestion, again, is the 400 MP, 150 MU price, while not being able to cloak outside of cover.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:53:42 pm by ChetnikVoyvoda » Logged
Tachibana Offline
NotADev
*
Posts: 1234


« Reply #23 on: January 22, 2019, 08:20:26 pm »

And this is why economists fail, they apply metaphysics to a field where it need not belong.

Holy shit, Area, marry me. Im smitten.
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It's like saying "i can understand his concerns that fire breathing dragons live in far away lands"
americans dont dodge wars.
Quote from: Trapfabricator
Literally, The only thing less likely than this is zombie hitler becoming prime minister of israel
TheArea Offline
EIR Member
Posts: 247


« Reply #24 on: January 22, 2019, 08:29:26 pm »

careful now, I already got crimson, shab, and chit pregnant.
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ChetnikVoyvoda Offline
EIR Recruit
Posts: 15


« Reply #25 on: January 22, 2019, 08:43:32 pm »

careful now, I already got crimson, shab, and chit pregnant.

I quite enjoyed the couple of politically-inclined discussions we had on Discord. Don't sour the experience posting inflammatory stuff like that. Keep it civil lest I turn into the next tank130.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2019, 08:51:58 pm by TheVolskinator » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
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Posts: 3003



« Reply #26 on: January 22, 2019, 08:49:08 pm »

My changes to the snipers (reverting them and triple buffing them) was the result of a deluge of QQ from basically everyone (at one point or another) that snipers were now useless, they never kill anything, it's 100% absolutely impossible to countersnipe with them, etc.

The price change I've already reverted (I need to update the notes). The pop and cloak changes will probably be reverted with the first hotfix I release (which will also take into account SnM and some other nonsense like scoped StGs on 4-man KCH).

I overreacted as usual; my take on the whole thing? Cloakless (outside of cover) snipers are fine, l2p. Seriously.
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Quote from: tank130
I want to ensure we have a 100% decision on the process before we do the wipe.
If not, then I wipe, then someone gets something they shouldn't, then it gets abused, then the shit hits the fan and then I ban shab.

PIE (Pertinent Info (for) EiR), incl. Zoomout Mod - updated 14 Apr. 2019

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Bear Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 887



« Reply #27 on: January 23, 2019, 01:56:48 am »

It is true that the Allies have to use either Recoiless Rifles on Airborne, or rely on Tank Destroyers and ATGs. In your ATG scenario, you overextended with ATGs by relying on them on your frontlines, or were picked off entirely to be unable to defend them and lost your position because you had no Sniper-Counters.


THX for your lesson Mr. EIR elite gamer Smiley

I mostly play Axis and I bring 3 bikes and 2 Flame HT at the sametime as sniper count and last time I killed a sniper so successfully from about 3 years ago. With mortar I was more successful against Sniper in this time. Cheesy


If we in the team try to excel ourselves in that our own support weapons are in the back row, we can also park them directly at the spawn..





« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 02:26:29 am by Bear » Logged
Unkn0wn Offline
No longer retired
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Posts: 18296


« Reply #28 on: January 23, 2019, 03:26:10 am »

This is all much ado about nothing really. Snipers are not like myst states "dominating the meta". In fact I don't think other than me, Magz and Shab anyone else uses them regularly, and of those people only Shab sometimes runs more than 1. They were largely fine with the cloak removed at their current price point and I imagine they'll be fine with cloak re-added as well. Myst does rightly point out that the cloak more often than not acts as a noob-trap as players are more likely to lose snipers by trying to move away cloaked at slow pace than they are by keeping them uncloaked at max range and constantly on the move.

Their price is sufficiently restrictive to prevent the kind of sniper spam builds we used to see in the puddin-days (3-4 snipers surrounded by a blob of RR AB - the horror), and with cloak re-added using another sniper as a counter once again becomes a possibility as well. In the end though, it won't matter. Good players will still be able to comfortable rack up a lot of kills on them (possibly even by keeping them uncloaked for most of the time), while poor players will continue to struggle with them due to their micro-intensity, and everyone will continue to randomly lose snipers to things like mortars and artillery, from time to time.

What is more concerning I find is the persistence of heavy reliance on support weapons on both sides, but on the allied side especially. The MG nerf helped address this to some extent but until allies get proper reliable HHAT options and a revision of their TD units, ATG spam is going to continue to be the order of the day. This is one of the main issues with the allied faction currently in my view, and actually runs counter to the design of the US faction for one. In all, i believe  it's undermining the kind of dynamic gameplay that EIR is normally known for.
« Last Edit: January 23, 2019, 03:34:17 am by Unkn0wn » Logged
TheVolskinator Offline
Administrator / Lead Developer
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Posts: 3003



« Reply #29 on: January 23, 2019, 08:37:02 am »

The M10 upgun exists and works well when used with sticky support. I would advise trying to make increased use of both it and the M18. At the end of the day I think the US does fine when players combine the ATGs and TDs. It's pop intensive but that's always been the downside to US--they're cost efficient but not pop efficient.
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