The new grindless system - Factional progression (FP)

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[Smokaz]

So you're going to host "Wehr only vs Brit only" games in the launcher? LOL.

Really this doesn't sound like a issue. In the original post it says that individual companies might get ahead. So you might have a lot of players who are level 6 by FP - and some others who are level 7 by individual effort. Soon's perfectly reasonable for me. 1 level outside of 8 vs 9 - assuming the same level system - makes fuck all difference.

[AmPM]

Smokaz, individuals don't rank up anymore. Only factions.

[panzerman]

mmm it's only new companies that are created during a campaign get a bonus per game to catch up to the current lvl that the faction is at...

so as long as some1 is playing lots of games u don't really have to do anything apart from vet up units.
i think we will just have to wait and see how it goes.

[Spartan_Marine88]

While i like the fact that the players earn xp/pp for the faction, but some how taking away the individual grind makes things seem holo. Still feels like theres no real point to logging on for the first month after the wipe. Like there is a limit to how much we play. And to a degree, i really don't want to play my ass off getting the factions up with the 4-5 people on, only to have some once a monther just come on, play a few games and be max level.

It could actually make the grind worse for the regulars

This is how i get this

say it takes in the current version approx 35-50 games (wins&losses) to get to max

but in the upcomming version it takes 300-400 games (wins & losses of all players of that faction) to get to max. Well if there is 10+ players playing its great, but if its like how it usually is, take PE for example, that player has to effectively win 200 games to get his faction (and himself) to max.

Now just think how he would feel seeing someone hop on seeing PE is maxed now, and quickly grind to max.

Maybe im a doomsayer, but this is a Big Change and well its a key mechanic

[Nevyen]

EIRRMod, I always thought that more focus on veterancy, and possibly reward units being purchased in limited qualities through PP or SP would help keep the game alive even at the high end.

This i like...

But more importantly what about a combination of both factional level up and player level up.

A long time ago I also floated the idea of additional things to rank up in outside of just xp for rank.

Call it reputation to steal and MMO term, where players would gain reputation points based on KDR for tank and infantry kills, and also possibly by keeping losses to a minimum.  The new intelligence page offers that option.

This reputation could be used an alternative to the global rank allowing players other avenues for equipment upgrades etc, like the reward units.

When I originally floated the idea of level xp and rank to Lucifer all those months/ or is it years now back.  I felt there was a real need for more than just rank and doctrines, especially in what is essentially going to be a strategy MMO.

There really needs to be multiple avenues for players to explore so that ranks is not the only contingent variable.

so you have

Vet
Rank both factional and player based
Doctrines
Multiple reputation scores to build on.

Each has a range of bonuses that are unit and equipment based that you gain access to via different streams.

You rank (global) gives you access to basic doctrines etc that all players should have

Personal Rank access's possibly special bonuses such as the resource bonuses.

Reputation allows for access to reward units of a certain ilk.

Therefore players can choose to pursue their own level of advancement.

There is always too much of a fundamental focus on the doctrines which creates the certain environment.

So while player A focuses his attentions on abilities, player B has built up on Rep,  they fight off, special units v certain abilities, built right both should still have an euqal chance to win based on their skill and their army composition without rank causing a massive issue.

 

[Illegal_Carrot]

Begone, foul spirit.

Sorry, I can't just run off to OMG if things go bad for EiR. EiR is the best mod for CoH out now (and ever), and I want to keep it that way. All this new shit and constant changing of stuff is only going to hurt the mod, maybe even kill it.

Carrot, those restrictions are to create a feel of intensity or timing to the war.
For example, late war, thats when you should expect the big-guns to come out.

My idea gives the same feel of the 'intensity of war.'
A Pershing may speed past supply lines in order to reach combat ASAP: this will definitely boost the combat effectiveness of the Allied front, but that Pershing (and all other vehicles in the company) will be limited in the fuel that they can consume before running out.
A company may be more of a logistical one: by escorting supply convoys, they'll always be well stocked, but German High Command will be less likely to let them use specialized or heavy units, which would be more useful in a more combat oriented company.
etc.

I do see what you are saying though, and it may disappear anyway with this system

Exactly: a new system. We have enough of those already. We've got a complete doctrine rework that no one wants, a veterancy rework that no one can agree on, a fully-implemented launcher-based warmap that we've never done before and are creating from scratch, and now a complete rework of the leveling/unlock system that will utterly change the fundamentals of EiR, as well as kill the individuality and freedom of every single company. Not good.

[Mysthalin]

Illegal.. The individuality and freedom of each company comes from the doctrines and our supply system. Not from the grind. That actually is the thing killing individuality and freedom - just saying.

[Smokaz]

Sorry, I can't just run off to OMG if things go bad for EiR. EiR is the best mod for CoH out now (and ever), and I want to keep it that way. All this new shit and constant changing of stuff is only going to hurt the mod, maybe even kill it.
My idea gives the same feel of the 'intensity of war.'

"New shit" = Progress intended all along
Contant changing of stuff = 100% required

Carrot, this is the first real massive progress that's been 'promised' since launcher V2. Everything else was mostly RGD work. Go look through the news section and the patches.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=14946.0

AFAIK this was the most recent, "beefy" patch of note which from what I know concern the type of mod work EIRRMOD does. Notice the date. May 20th.

Your appraisal of big changes is simply erratic. Your critique is partly aimed at progress in avenues which have been planned all along, it's just not been a priority for EIRRMOD to do which is perfectly acceptable considering all he's done so far. You're mixing "bad doctrines" and bugs with the general direction of the mod.

[Unkn0wn]

Human beings have a natural tendency to dislike progress.

EiR is the best mod for CoH out now (and ever), and I want to keep it that way. All this new shit and constant changing of stuff is only going to hurt the mod, maybe even kill it.

If I had a penny for every time someone said this about a change made in this mod, including the hundred times I did so myself in the past... By now, I would have probably been able to purchase that PC for Eirrmod myself.

I expected a lot of you would voice concerns over the loss of 'self-determination' (as you will) and 'purpose'.

Let's get some things straight.

Self-Determination & freedom, the argument that somehow you will be losing company individuality makes no sense. You still create your company the way YOU want it, with the units you want, the doctrines you want and the resource emphasis you want. The only thing that you somewhat lose control over is technically the speed at which you will be progressing. (Although You can still contribute to this speed mind you) I suppose for the few hardcore players that were always miles ahead of their peers, this will be less interesting, but for everybody else it will probably be a step forward.

So what's the purpose of still playing a lot if I can just sit back and let others do the levelling for me? (Or have the buffer bump my faction to the next level every turn)

Well first off, there's the game itself. vCOH doesn't reward you for playing extensively, yet a lot of people do.
Of course, since this is sort of an MMO game in which people strive for further company progression there's also the added 'grind' elements for the individual players. These could include:
- Reward units
- Veterancy (3 or 5 levels)
- Warmap rank and control
- 'Warmap cards' (Extra off-maps, units, pool values, whatever)
- Possibly resource bonuses. (See old RB system)

Looking over that list, surely you can't claim that there's not going to be enough individual grind there?
Yes, the benefits you get from these will be smaller ingame than the average benefit you'd get from a large pp/xp advantage but there's still more than enough to make it worthwhile.

And let's not forget the warmap elements are going to be HUGE, especially in the longer run there's going to be all kinds of cool stuff you can do with a higher warmap rank, allowing you to influence the war a lot more than you do at the starting level. The warmap is going to take this mod to a whole new level, by cutting in much deeper and wider than the average campaign run warmap ever did.

As far as the 'doctrine rework SUX', 'veterancy rework SUX' being dragged in here. This is not the place for discussing this, we have a seperate thread on the reworks. Also, I don't think the veterancy rework is a high priority at all the moment and if we ever get to reworking the veterancy it will probably be to turn it into a 5-level (or maybe more who knows) system.

Your concerns are noted, and more constructive feedback is very much welcomed. I'm sure we could do with some original ideas for added individual 'bonuses' that don't give too much of a benefit in game.

But honestly, I don't see what all the fuss is about.

[nugnugx]

And let's not forget the warmap elements are going to be HUGE, especially in the longer run there's going to be all kinds of cool stuff you can do with a higher warmap rank,

and after that EIR only needs its own game engine. With it EIRRMOD can make EIRR productions (TM) and go standalone like LoL. The half-part is done launcher/warmap.

[Spartan_Marine88]

That actually is the thing killing individuality and freedom - just saying.

When your tied to a 'factional system' your freedom and individuality are being limited all the time.

I mean, its proof the Devs don't really listen to the players. We said lower the grind, we get this.

"New shit" = Progress intended all along
Contant changing of stuff = 100% required

This is actually the most terrible and flawed view i have ever heard. Progress intendended all along shouldn't feel like an almost completely new mod. That would be, like your playing WOW one day, then you wake up log on and you have maple story. Then the devs argue and tell you its better.

Constant changing of stuff, is never required. Ever. Whats needed has been ignored by the devs, thats Balancing, tweaking and the addittion of little new content every now and then.

Oh and to learn to ignore half the bitching.

To quote someone - How you know a game is good, all the players complain the other side is broken. (once again, if you don't believe it check out wow forums you would think the game is about to die from all the rage in it)

[nugnugx]

How you know a game is good, all the players complain the other side is broken. (once again, if you don't believe it check out wow forums you would think the game is about to die from all the rage in it)

This is a weird logic. I played WoW for some time , the games does not die because there is no other game of its quality in this genre and not because people rage all the time.
People rage because they want their character to be OP.

[Groundfire]

Spartan, is it so bad to move the focus of EIRR persistancy away from the doctrinal grind? It is the one aspect of the mod that makes it so hard for new players to join in mid war, the company level disparity. There were alot of options weighed, and this one seemed like the best option to help newer players and make the mod fun for the weekend warriors.

While that may be a problem for the guy who spams 100 games a week and hits lvl9 much later than he should have, it accomplishes our goal of making player interactions within the mod equal.

So, we remove alittle bit of the doctrinal grind, that only means that were eventually going to put more focus on other areas of company customization to correspond with the warmap.

everything we had up till now were just system place holders for when the warmap comes. Things like PP/sp grind were gonna get axed from the get-go when we could tie grind to warmap. So yes, it was intended all along. Anything we change can be attributed to that.

[Unkn0wn]

This is actually the most terrible and flawed view i have ever heard. Progress intendended all along shouldn't feel like an almost completely new mod. That would be, like your playing WOW one day, then you wake up log on and you have maple story. Then the devs argue and tell you its better.

Constant changing of stuff, is never required. Ever. Whats needed has been ignored by the devs, thats Balancing, tweaking and the addittion of little new content every now and then.

This is a terrible analogy.

The proper one would be: 'that would be like you playing an MMORPGs Alpha/Beta one day, then waking up one morning and finding out of one of the key promised features of that MMORPG that has been in BETA forever has finally been implemented.'

Also, saying "it 'feels' like a whole new mod" is a very vague argument for not having change. Especially given the fact that you are basing your feelings off a bunch of text. And the fact that these changes will have no sigifnicant effects on the ingame aspect of this mod. ..

I'm baffled at how some people are actually speaking out against the addition of a war map. This has been an intented feature since day 1. I can dig into the development forum archives and give you quotes from january 2007 on this.

We said lower the grind, we get this.

We're not removing the grind at all, we're just taking away a part of it.
In addition, I'd like to point out that the grind has already been softened A LOT from what it first was. Yet there's still voices to lower the grind further. To lower it further at this point would come close to practically removing it from the game. (And then some people would complain there's nothing to do once they hit level 9 after a mere 25 - 30 games.)


I've been with this mod since day 1 (Almost 4 years now), I have witnessed every moment in its history and I can safely say that I have seen this all before. The community of this mod has always resisted larger changes, often going in against all accounts of rationality and common sense, lead by emotions. I too have been a part of this at times, I'm sure everyone has at one point.

But let's face it, often the community was wrong and too quick to judge. Far too often we misjudged incoming changes, because we have not had a chance to try them out. (Think of the countless balance patches that people complained over on the forums, before jumping in game and discovering that it's really not that big of a deal)

So let's all be reasonable and give this a chance shall we? These are not 'irrational' or 'rash' decisions at all but if the development team did make the mistake of throwing them in, they can always be rolled back on (Mainly talking about the new grind system here) or adjusted ... AFTER we have all had a serious amount of time to play around with them.

[Unkn0wn]

Lastly, I'd like to take the time to respond to:

Constant changing of stuff, is never required. Ever. Whats needed has been ignored by the devs, thats Balancing, tweaking and the addittion of little new content every now and then.

This would have been true, provided EIR:R was a final product, which it honestly is not.

I can also safely tell you now that in the history of EIR:R, the largest amount of active players present occured when the mod had just had a significant update. (I.E doctrine rework, some system rework, new launcher, whatever) When the mod's development is stalled, its playerbase stalls as well. To me, this is proof that there's some fundamental things lacking or wrong with the modification in the current state.

Sure, balance issues and bugs will drive away some players eventually, but I'm absolutely certain that even with 'perceived' perfect balance and few bugs (which is imbalance to achieve anyway) the playerbase would stall if there is no further development.

I for one know a lot of people are waiting on the warmap, people that don't even play the mod anymore, and many more will flock in just because of the warmap. This is the cornerstone of this mod's development and our best chances of long-term survival as a modification for an outdated game.

[3rdCondor]

@Unknown's 1st post

I really like this idea.
................
-the end

[Spartan_Marine88]

So let's all be reasonable and give this a chance shall we? These are not 'irrational' or 'rash' decisions at all but if the development team did make the mistake of throwing them in, they can always be rolled back on (Mainly talking about the new grind system here) or adjusted ... AFTER we have all had a serious amount of time to play around with them.

I have had my say, and if im wrong i will keep playing just like i do now (and yes i will admit i was wrong). If i am right i will say it and will still keep on playing.

But for now ill just shut up on the grindless system and wait to see how it comes out

[EIRRMod]

I have had my say, and if im wrong i will keep playing just like i do now (and yes i will admit i was wrong). If i am right i will say it and will still keep on playing.

But for now ill just shut up on the grindless system and wait to see how it comes out

=)

Honestly I believe it could go either way - too big of a loss of individual growth would be the reason we'd revert it back.
However, we need to try it, and see how it goes - its just one part of a bigger progression package with the warmap as its backing.

I hope it works, but if it doesnt, we'll sort it out =)

[AmPM]

It's not that the idea is bad, I think it just needs to have more progression added in other areas to make it work perfectly.

Resource Bonuses, Reward Units, Veterancy are all areas that are underutilized in the game.

[EIRRMod]

It's not that the idea is bad, I think it just needs to have more progression added in other areas to make it work perfectly.

Resource Bonuses, Reward Units, Veterancy are all areas that are underutilized in the game.

Thats going to be the key - and was the problem with the 'newbie rewards' system too - it was too small / unbalanced.