Learning from the past: Balancing mistakes - Zeal Lmg

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[UnLimiTeD2]

Even balanced companies can easily be killed by Zeal, it's not like you HAVE to dump all your manpower in Grenadiers and but lots of LMGs and schrecks from them, you only use them as mainline infantry. Just like Pure Airborne aren't likely to win, if you don't oversupply or have reasonable teammates.
A balanced company will always lose to a company specialized in killing those balanced coys.
Those in turn die to other specialized companies that excel in killing gimicks.
The only real danger to Zeal are snipers, obm tanks and the like, cause tell me what you want, I will not throw my sherman in to kill a single guy with a Scheck, as I'll likely take 2-3 hits if I don't get him with the first shot.

[Spartacus85]

what a shitty name you have ...

[NationalSozialismus]

Even balanced companies can easily be killed by Zeal, it's not like you HAVE to dump all your manpower in Grenadiers and but lots of LMGs and schrecks from them, you only use them as mainline infantry. Just like Pure Airborne aren't likely to win, if you don't oversupply or have reasonable teammates.
A balanced company will always lose to a company specialized in killing those balanced coys.
Those in turn die to other specialized companies that excel in killing gimicks.
The only real danger to Zeal are snipers, obm tanks and the like, cause tell me what you want, I will not throw my sherman in to kill a single guy with a Scheck, as I'll likely take 2-3 hits if I don't get him with the first shot.

In order to deck out your guys with that many LMGs you do need to dump your points in to munitions, even then you won't have too many LMG squads, I did exactly that for a terror company and there isn't that many LMG's even then, only 8 out of 16 grenadier squads and 6 shreks.

I'm not saying it is/isn't powerful, but AB is particulary vulnerable to zeal, compared to other builds which are substantially better against it.

[MistenTHA]

Zeal rapes riflemen too, and in green cover will laugh off and kill a garrisoned .30 cal. So it is not just vs airborne.

And zeal armies since they are meant for dying, will also be dropping LMGs and shreks when they die, and you can retrieve them, which makes not having enough munitions a moot point. And my terror company has a lot of RBs into munitions, so 80 muni LMGs for >half my gren squads is not a problem at all.

[Mysthalin_Armor]

I came in here to comment on "pure AB companies only work when oversupplied"
Fuck you, skill-less oversupplying fag.
Seriously, learn to play fair, and don't complain if things don't go your way when you can't exploit it.
My 26 AB company with AB elite worked wonders, not a single munitions' worth of oversupply in it.
Saying AB are useless without oversupply is, IMO, stupid, undeserving on the Airborne, and shows just how much you respect your opponents if you use cheating to beat them.
Sorry for being flaring up right now, but honor means a lot to me, in games especially, and using a bug/glitch in the system is far from honorable.

[VariantThirteen]

I came in here to comment on "pure AB companies only work when oversupplied"
Fuck you, skill-less oversupplying fag.
Seriously, learn to play fair, and don't complain if things don't go your way when you can't exploit it.
My 26 AB company with AB elite worked wonders, not a single munitions' worth of oversupply in it.
Saying AB are useless without oversupply is, IMO, stupid, undeserving on the Airborne, and shows just how much you respect your opponents if you use cheating to beat them.
Sorry for being flaring up right now, but honor means a lot to me, in games especially, and using a bug/glitch in the system is far from honorable.

<3 QFT


Look, Zeal LMGs hardcounter infantry, so cry; look at the requirements for them to do it - must take 2-3 casualties, must be in cover, must not face any support weapons (snipers, at guns, mortars, arty, offmaps or tanks). This is all on a unit who costs more than double a rifle squad.

The allied expectation that throwing their cheap as chips counter-all infantry at a problem should fix it is so irritating. Zeal Grens are far from uncounterable though very strong in their niche. Counter it and it's not such a problem.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Myst, I had a Raidassault Company with 80% Winratio in my first war.
I used Oversupply on one single company this war to show that it's unfair, which is why I posted up a screenshot with a 30k manpower company to show how far it can go, even though that should have been known before. I complained about oversupply many times before, without reaction, So this was the way to go, if you think something is OP, proove it by using it to great effect.
I actually told my opponents I was oversupplied after I reached 15k manpower.

In short: You FAIL! flaming random people for not being conform with your views without any idea of what is actually going on, and calling them names and questioning their skill lacking any grounding puts you in line with all the other brainless flamers we occasionally see here.
And that you now call 'honour', for me that is in line with religious or sozialist fanatics.

Stop flaming, it's putting a bad light on you.

Btw, I'm mainly an axis player.

[Smithy17]

Look, Zeal LMGs hardcounter infantry, so cry; look at the requirements for them to do it - must take 2-3 casualties, must be in cover, must not face any support weapons (snipers, at guns, mortars, arty, offmaps or tanks). This is all on a unit who costs more than double a rifle squad.

So you are fighting a 4 man gren squad with some rifles. At some point (unless you lose the fight anyway) between the first bullet and the death of the grens there must be a point where there are 1 or 2 left, at which point zeal kicks in and they destroy your force leaving a 1 or 2 man gren squad. Also they don't cost more than double a rifle (I believe rifles are 200 and grens are 240).

And why is it hard to get a gren squad in cover? There is normally enough around.

Also since when did an at-gun counter a gren squad?

[Mysthalin_Armor]

Just like Pure Airborne aren't likely to win, if you don't oversupply

Myst, I had a Raidassault Company with 80% Winratio in my first war.

I used Oversupply on one single company this war to show that it's unfair

I don't seem to follow your thread of logic, you first claim it's imposible to win without oversupply as airborne, then you say you had an 80 percent win ratio WITHOUT Oversupply, then you state oversupply is unfair.
If that's not flip-flopping, I don't know what is.
As I said, I was sorry about being strong on my words in my first post, but I do see the sheer claim of "Pure Airborne aren't likely to win, if you don't oversupply" as absolutely outrageous, attrocious, and completely not true. It also promotes cheating tendencies within the community - only way to win is to cheat? Sorry, that is not at all what falls into honor. If you see cheating as dishonorable, I doubt it's a rezult of Religious or Nazi type of zeal. It's actually a simple and understandable standard within humanity - cheating is, has always been, and always will be dishonorable.

[UnLimiTeD2]

Not that I didn't say that from the beginning anyways.
Pure airborne will likely not win vs. Zeal companies, as those fall under the "specialzied" category; I admit I left out an important part of the senence there.
Also, you always have to factor in teammates, have two players, both airborne, in a 2v2 against decent foes with balanced companies...
Just let one player have intensity, 2 HMGs will lockdown an area and pin even fired up airborne in seconds.
At this point, of if they have lot's of Grenadiers with LMGs or MP40 volks, you got to use artillery (like supply droped mortars), use significantly more popcap than the defender on taking this position out, or call for, yes a tank. I agree a 'pure' Airborne Company likely has some tanks, still that scratches on the definition.

In my past games with RA, I nearly always had a teammate with lot's of cheap forces, or tank/artillery support. Riflespam, Support weapons Calliopes, all good suplements to an Airborne company.
Have 3 Airborne players vs 3 random axis, it's likely the Airborne lose, if they don't have balanced companies, sadly including offmap spam.

We won't get into discussing the 'pure' here, because a dozen offmaps can turn any game, but sure thats a way.

Your attitude results in making other people responsible for imaginary problems, taking them in charge for your own interpretations of what they said. Granted, I said missunderstandable things, but then ASK what I mean, not just flame me because I 'could' have said something against you, in which case it would have been enough to state you see it otherwise.
Good sportsmanship doesn't stop in not cheating.

[NationalSozialismus]

Zeal is far from OP. The guy still dies easily when in the open, just becomes a death machine in heavy cover or in a building, but there is lots of ways to deal with that which I'm sure you're all aware of. It isn't that powerful, just quite powerful.

In fact, it's only really OP against AB spam. Against most other builds it's competitive and not massively overpowered. You don't get much of a damage boost until you hit one man, up until then, each loss effectively puts you at the effectiveness of a 4 man squad.

But if you only use a single unit and very little else, you deserve to lose.

[Mysthalin_Armor]

I was not reffering to particularly you, for starters, nor had the intention to flame you. I was reffering to anyone saying airborne are impossible to win as without oversupply(there's more of these people than you would think), which quite indeed disgusts me, and I find it necesary to express it. Though I am sorry for the strong language, YET AGAIN.
Pure airborne doesn't have that many problems vs zeal, in my opinion - two grenades instantly take out even the most zealed up grenadier squad, and if they move - yay, I just denied them cover and their LMG.

Agreeably, good sportsmanship does not stop in not cheating, and you would hardly want to play again versus someone who insults you, his teammate, and in general is being a prick.

[NationalSozialismus]

Their problem comes from their desire to attack move blob with occasional grenades, when they are out micro'd and macro'd they scream foul. It's as if they don't want there to be a counter to an army that consists almost entirely of a single unit.....

[Killer344]

meh, zeal is fine, most companies don´t have problems against it, the only moment it gets really powerful is when your enemies think they will get that lonely 1 man vetted gren with a lmg running around the map with 2 rifles.............

[SnarksTLS]

The problem with Zeal is, people design companies around them. That's when it becomes game-breaking. I propose tieing in the the bonuses given by Zeal with vet. That way, a vet 0 1 man LMG Grenadier wouldn't be exceedingly powerful because there's very little risk involved losing a vet 0 unit but a vet 3 1 man LMG Grenadier would give substantial firepower but carries the risk of losing a highly experienced squad.

Let's not forget that losing a Vet 0 LMG Grenadier squad could be a good thing since you can transfer that LMG to another squad.

[salan]

people design companies around everything in the doctrine trees though, be it assault, tigers, pershings, calliope's, howitzers, airborne, .... i could keep going?

[SnarksTLS]

people design companies around everything in the doctrine trees though, be it assault, tigers, pershings, calliope's, howitzers, airborne, .... i could keep going?

True, but Zeal is suppose to be self-balancing because vet lost is tied in with the doctrine bonuses is it not? Right now, losing vet 0 LMG squads could potentially be beneficial considering that the LMG has a good chance of dropping and being transferred to another squad.

The player might take an availability hit, but consider the fact that Zeal can often inflict an availability hit on the opposition as well by wiping out entire squads in seconds.

[BigDick]

Let's not forget that losing a Vet 0 LMG Grenadier squad could be a good thing since you can transfer that LMG to another squad.

or to the airborne squad of your opponents that become really nasty with a lmg42 on a 6 men squad with raid assault and that much HP like airbornes

or to a bar riflesquad, that bar-suppress  and lmg rape at the same time

[VariantThirteen]

Look, Zeal LMGs hardcounter infantry, so cry; look at the requirements for them to do it - must take 2-3 casualties, must be in cover, must not face any support weapons (snipers, at guns, mortars, arty, offmaps or tanks). This is all on a unit who costs more than double a rifle squad.

So you are fighting a 4 man gren squad with some rifles. At some point (unless you lose the fight anyway) between the first bullet and the death of the grens there must be a point where there are 1 or 2 left, at which point zeal kicks in and they destroy your force leaving a 1 or 2 man gren squad. Also they don't cost more than double a rifle (I believe rifles are 200 and grens are 240).

And why is it hard to get a gren squad in cover? There is normally enough around.

Also since when did an at-gun counter a gren squad?

Infantry company can pump out rifles for 130, granted it's doctrinal, but so is Zeal.

Riflemen have options for dealing with covered grens, like nades and suppressive fire. He can't keep cover if you nade, and nades on a full HP gren squad have the potential to BOTH push him out of cover AND knock him down to that one man.

AT Guns counter it by shooting from outside it's range and messing cover up. The weakness of Zeal is that it offers no advantages in situations where you can't shoot back, in fact making you weaker in these scenarios.

[SSPzDivision]

The problem with Zeal is, people design companies around them. That's when it becomes game-breaking. I propose tieing in the the bonuses given by Zeal with vet. That way, a vet 0 1 man LMG Grenadier wouldn't be exceedingly powerful because there's very little risk involved losing a vet 0 unit but a vet 3 1 man LMG Grenadier would give substantial firepower but carries the risk of losing a highly experienced squad.

Let's not forget that losing a Vet 0 LMG Grenadier squad could be a good thing since you can transfer that LMG to another squad.

Man I play as Waffenschutz Division and I still don't build my company around Zeal, The zeal is a buff for my troops so that I can keep them on field much more longer. I mean c'mon guys. If you see 5 men Riflemen squadron it can kick 2 men gren squad to dust within seconds did they have a LMG or not. How many times a Howizer/Calliope/Strafing/bombing run/Sherman shot leaves more than 1-2 soldiers alive from a 4 men grenadier squadron? Not many times I can assure you that. When its down to 2 man people usually retreats it since it has no potential to fight against hordes of enemy infantry. But with Zeal it enables them to stay in field quicker, just like the triage center helps allies to keep rangers/riflemen alive and on field longer. Zeal makes lack of troops useful and you can fight now with just 1 man squads. Its quite rambo- except Rambo is in the wrong side in the war.

Zeal is doctorine spesific and its not really a bad thing, it only depends how you fight versus Zeal. No one runs a massive blob on open ground versus 1 man with a MG42 right? Use the same thing...flank him. Its only 1 man...I know you can micro him to shoot both squads if they try to flank but even that ZEAL Lmg soldier can't shoot in 2 directions at the very same time :p
Sherman usually snipes that last soldier, not to mentionate about a sniper..

Oh yeh...4 man squad usually loses that 1 man due to a ATG snipe, that's not cool.