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[deadbolt]

Rifle training is still a great Tier 4 it blanket buffs so many units.

2 units *shruggs*

[brn4meplz]

2 units that typically form more then 60% of a company.

[deadbolt]

2 units that typically form more then 60% of a company.

why do u think that is? cos theyre the only units that get buffed *duh*

[gamesguy2]

Panzernacker support kinda sucks, it comes in pretty slow and fires 4 or 5 or so inaccuret shots. Very easy to totaly avoid it. Just move out of its way. Atleast so far thats how it looks like. Must be good for destroying engine damage tanks.

So it's inline with bombing run then.

[DarkSoldierX]

Panzernacker support kinda sucks, it comes in pretty slow and fires 4 or 5 or so inaccuret shots. Very easy to totaly avoid it. Just move out of its way. Atleast so far thats how it looks like. Must be good for destroying engine damage tanks.

So it's inline with bombing run then.

Not inline with Strafing run that absolutley destroys infantry squads with no chance to get away.

[Chubba]

Panzernacker support kinda sucks, it comes in pretty slow and fires 4 or 5 or so inaccuret shots. Very easy to totaly avoid it. Just move out of its way. At least so far thats how it looks like. Must be good for destroying engine damage tanks.

Any chance we could get some logic behind the nerf on the Panzerknacker?

I used this thing almost religiously a couple of wars ago and my regular playing partners will tell you that even under the best practical conditions (LoS of Entire Area, No Tall Buildings and Generally Compact Map) it would kill a total of (maybe) One Tank.

This was back when Armour Companies and T17's when rife on battlefields everywhere so there were even more targets now than there were back then.

I'm just wondering how the Dev's responsible tested the panzerknacker and decided that it was 'too powerful'. Because the argument 'It's inline with bombing run' doesn't make for great reasoning.

(And if you need the logic for why it isn't great reasoning, read on. If not, go about and enjoy your non-rage filled day.)

If we're measuring everything by bombing run, why isn't strafing run as easy to dodge as bombing? (And before you give me the technical reason, if you can't nerf something you think is 'op' surely it would make more sense to remove it from the game ala canister shot than to leave it in. Unless being unbalanced is allowed if you serve under an allied flag.) Or Earthshaker? Or Infantry Off Map Howitzer? Or Terror Firestorm? Or Defensive Rocket Artillery? Should all offmaps be like bombing run? Should they all be easy to dodge? Should they all pack a serious punch like bombing run? If everything's going to be compared to bombing run, why not simply make everything like bombing run but in slight variations. It would certainly cut down on complaining whiners and coding effort.

And finally, if we acknowledge that we enjoy the variation in off maps, their differing uses, variable power and different range, why is it that you would compare it to bombing run in the first place when the two are different now in everything except effectiveness.

Saying the nerf on Henschel was warranted because it makes it 'inline with bombing run' is just as piss poor an argument as implying that an allied infantry company only has riflemen and rangers because the person has rifle training. (And fuck it Deadbolt, you fucking know Brn4Me was talking about the amount of units in question, not the fucking category those units could be filed under. That sort of irrelevant semantic shit is just irritating, doubly so when it seems you are using it to defend rifle training.)

YesIMad.jpg

[Mysthalin]

Because PanzerKnacker was outright batshit insane, Chubba.
Your claim that it would "only gib one tank" only holds plausibility if you target the panzerknacker to hit just the one tank. In reality - if you had LOS, the Panzerknacker offmap would kill every single tank and vehicle in the area, as well as destroying most AT guns and sometimes even gibbing infantry!

If we were to count the total Damage output of just the targeting rocket launcher(ignoring the one that random fires anywhere) - we'd find something around 2000 damage in one pass, with 50 percent accuracy - so 1000 effective damage(if ignoring miss-hits still hitting something). And there would be up to 6 passes in the 30 second duration of the Panzerknacker.

So we're looking at a total of 6000 guaranteed damage dealt to enemy units in the target area, with an aditional extra 18000 that may or may not contact the enemy. That means anything between 6000-24000 damage. Spread across 30 seconds. 200-800 DPS. Even at the lowest possible DPS - it's like having 6 flak 88s at your disposal.
NOTHING in the game had that kind of damage output. As in, nothing at all.

[Chubba]

Mysthalin, you claim to speak in terms of reality but then you go on to assume things like,

1. That you will always, one hundred percent, be able to maintain LoS to the tanks in the area of effect. And that those tanks will not try to run out of the area in order to avoid the shots. Most often placing the area of effect is enough to send the tanks running even before the first plane has started firing. (or firing shots that can hit anyway, especially on a long map where a plane might choose to come from the longest angle possible)

Not only this, but with the reduced LoS for most units in EiR (when compared to vCoH) getting LoS and maintaining is hard to do in the first place, not even taking into account the fact that the tanks will be running away from the AoE.

This is perhaps the most important point because in a game where getting and maintaining LoS on your opponent is not easy, you have assumed that not only will you be able to get and maintain said LoS but that your opponent will not attempt to stop you. (by running away for example)

2. That damage not being affected by anything else. The plane cannon changing targets as it fires, 50% accuracy being further modified by things such as intervening terrain, phase armour etc. However I can't comment more without access to how exactly you got 1000 effective damage, care to shed some light here?

3. Again, until you shed some light until how you calculated 6000 can I comment on how well earned that 'guaranteed' label you slapped on there is. Because I have it used it before back in the old war, and barring any changes, I do not remember (and I used it all the time, it was one of the things I bitched about most) killing tanks left right and centre. I certainly do not remember it being so effective as to warrant it being called the equivalent of 6 flak 88's by either myself, my allies or my enemies. And I was one of its main users. I remember trying to maximise potential by timing it with armour pushes or getting my allies to use MI to provide that LoS the ability hinges upon.

It seems like you are using the math to exaggerate how powerful it was instead of having actually used it in anything but test situations. (That is, assuming, that you actually ever tried the old henschel. If you have then I'm wondering why you would ever make claims like '6 flak 88's' at all. I'm sure the math makes it seem that way but if you've ever used it in EiR you should know that it does not often deal out that sort of damage during the course of normal play. I will be more than happy to prove it or say that I'm wrong if the dev team reinstate the old henschel run so that the rest of us can actually try it out and get a feel for it so that we can all talk about it having actually used it.)

[Mysthalin]

1. Use a schwimwaggen that both has immense LOS and can block tanks, on top of being very proficient in dodging their shots? Either that or the 1 pop kettenkrad that can cloak? If you're using an off-map that's entirely dependant on LOS to be useful - it's your own responsability to make sure you maintain this LOS.

Not only this, but with the reduced LoS for most units in EiR

Name one thing that has less LOS in EiR than it does in vCoH?

That damage not being affected by anything else. The plane cannon changing targets as it fires, 50% accuracy being further modified by things such as intervening terrain, phase armour etc. However I can't comment more without access to how exactly you got 1000 effective damage, care to shed some light here?

Shots that the engine rolls to be hits hit the target no matter what. They'll bend in 180 degree curves, they'll phase through 5 buildings but they'll hit their target.

200 damage per shot from the Henschel rockets, 4-5 rockets that auto-aim, 4-5 that don't. Now, excuse me - I thought the henschel fires 8 rockets rather than 4-5, but I also remembered the accuracy to be way lower than it actually is(it's actually 85 percent, and even then only at long range - otherwise it's 100 percent).

So yes, excuse me - it's not 1000 guaranteed damage, but 850. Not much change in it, though.

Oh, I did try the old henschel - countless times. It's the most OP off-map I've ever seen in all my days of playing CoH, with only perhaps Salan's first implementation of scorched earth incendiary barrage being even remotely near in power(and it was never released in that form to the general public).

[Tymathee]

but it was beautiful...greatest looking off map ever and I got a chance to actually play with it

http://www.xfire.com/video/1041d2/

You gotta love the text at the end "wtf" "wait a second" "that's not good"

lol i miss Salan's toys

[Chubba]

1. I did use a cloaked kettenrad to maintain LoS, that's why I even achieved tank kills with the Panzerknacker in the first place. You talk about responsibility yet you do not acknowledge the fact that this responsibility is not always easy to satisfy. Maybe you are simply better at maintaining LoS then I am. Maybe I am worse at maintaining LoS when I was using Henschel runs than everyone else of the day. But whether you are excellent at scouting or absolutely terrible at it, you must acknoledge that the LoS is very important for the Henschel ability and that not everyone will be able to pull off the perfect LoS conditions for a Panzerknacker run.


2. I'm not sure if the LoS has been reduced for EiR over vCoH but it certainly feels that way. Whether it has or it hasn't, the main point was that the LoS to all vehicles in the AoE is not always easy (or even possible) to maintain.

3. Thank you for the engine rolls to be hits will always to be hits, but how does that make the factors I listed any less relevant? Doesn't the engine take those into account when calculating hits?

So it seems you took 50% accuracy, factor in 10 shots with 200 damage. So 5 shots at 200 damage each for your 'guaranteed' 1000 damage right? Yet you don't talk about the plane cannon changing target, the introduction of other factors like phase armour affecting the plane cannon's 50% accuracy.

If those shots will be fired at all due to the LoS requirements.

So basically, if you assume perfect LoS (a player who can both achieve and maintain that perfect LoS), a straight 50% plane cannon accuracy that is not affected by anything else and that the enemy will not run away from the AoE and will sit there, you can get 1000 'guaranteed' damage per plane and thus your proposed 6000 'guaranteed' damage and thus your '6 flak 88's' Comparison.

Is this correct?

[Mysthalin]

1. Just like you need LOS to use every single other off-map in exsitence to score kills. Except that if you maintain LOS with the henschel - you'll get the kill. Whereas other offmaps, with their drift and spread - have a much lesser chance of achieving their kill.

2. Well if you're not going to maintain LOS on your target - don't pop the offmap?

3. Because the engine doesn't care about houses, trees, hills or ANYTHING at all - all it will care about is vehicle cover(Which I'll doubt anyone will get when running the hell away) and smoke(which nobody will have enough time to pop). Houses and other stuff only matter in the excess damage provided by missed shots still hitting and the cannon that fires randomly(which means the damage beyond the 6k).

4. The plane cannon targets tanks above anything else, and has 0 aim-time. If it does change targets - it will do so immediately : it's simply irrelevant.

5. Except that I was mistaken, and the plane has a minimum of 85 percent accuracy, which escalates to 100. Maintaining LOS is simply piss easy with the schwimwaggen, it's dodge and it's low pop-cost - therefore yes, any even remotely decent player will have perfect LOS while using the henschel. And yes - you will come to about 6000 guaranteed damage over the course of the off-map(assuming the enemy will ever actually FIELD anything that REQUIRES that much damage be dealt to them).

[ImmanioEiR]

Chubba, just so you're up to date on the CoH engine:

When rolling to hit, it's a percentile roll against the weapons accuracy. Said accuracy can be affected if the target is infantry in cover or a vehicle in vehicle cover. It will not be affected by any objects along the way. If your infantry is right behind sandbags they're in cover and get reduced incoming accuracy. If they're 5m behind the sandbags, they're not in cover and accuracy isn't affected.

If this roll scores a hit, the weapon will hit, regardless of anything else. Again: Nothing will prevent it from hitting, even if it requires a shell to do a 180 degree turn in midair and pass straight through a house on the way.

Now, if it rolls a miss, then and only then will the path matter. A shot that has rolled as a miss will be fired, and it will follow a trajectory. How much this trajectory differs from the straight line to the target is determined by the weapon's scatter angle. If the round hits anything along this trajectory, it will impact on it. Thus a missed shot can hit, say, those sandbags halfway to the target and stop there. If the round still impacts with the target's hitbox, it hits even if it rolled a miss. If it impacts with another units hitbox first, it will hit that.

Some weapons, most prominently the RR, has a fairly low accuracy but also a very low scatter angle. This means that although they roll a lot of misses, they still hit because the round goes in the right direction after all. This is where "phase armour" comes into play: The armour type used by pumas (and ACs in EiR) essentially has no hitbox. This means that even if the round seems to hit the model, it doesn't calculate as a hit. Thus, to hit these targets, you must roll a hit.

[Mysthalin]

Good job clearing it up immanio, but a slight correction :

Pumas and other things with phase armour do have a hitbox - it just so happens that the shell type fired by RRs, tanks and AT guns are set not to clip with the puma hitbox(or.. vice versa - but the end result is the same).

[Chubba]

@ Immanio - Thank you but I already knew that. So what are you saying by telling me how the hit engine works? Are you saying simply that phase armour is not a problem for the panzerknacker (so simply that phase armour isn't a factor in Panzerknacker accuracy) or are you going even further to say that nothing in the game affects Panzerknacker accuracy?

@ Mysthalin - Can you not even accept the possibility that some people may have trouble maintaining LoS to the target tanks? (not taking into account that these target tanks can move out of the area of effect)

As for the changing of targets and other factors can I assume that the current panzerknacker is almost the same as the old one?

[Mysthalin]

1. The only two things that affect panzerknacker accuracy is smoke and vehicle cover. Neither of which you'll have the chance to use. Phase armour is ABSOLUTELY irrelevant - and as you're still claiming it does actually matter, you give off the impression that you don't in fact know how the hit engine works. If a shot rolls a hit - it WILL hit. For all the game cares you can put 20 KTs in the way, it'll go straight through every single one and hit the intended greyhound. It just DOESN'T matter.





2. Balance is done according to what the better players can do with a unit - not to accomodate for the most average player. And no - you're not getting out of the area of affect with a tank. Not while the henschel has 125 range(which means it's effective range is extended by that beyond the initial circle).

3. I would guess so - I've been looking at the old panzerknacker this whole time.

[DarkSoldierX]

Huh? it seems to me the area of effect is much smaller, and after the plane gets its 1 shot off on the tank it nolonger targets it. I called it ona  sherman, it fired 1 shot at the sherman then 3 at absolutely nothing way infront of the sherman. Il try to post some effectiveness repleys soon. The new henshel kinda sucks.

It seems after the target isnt in its fire cone like its ontop of the target or somthing it does nothing or just shoots ground like its a bombing run.

[gamesguy2]

Nothing changed except it now only calls in one plane and has more accuracy.

[Uunderfire]

I like that nebel and pak 36.. gives me good ideas.. portable 20mm gun like in saving private ryan!

This man wins the Thread!

Ah, that's so epic, when the soldiers try to destroy the Tiger, and then this deadly gun start firing...

[Tymathee]

well it seems as if they gave the pak 36 the ostwind gun, let's give the 20mm the t-17 gun and give it to infantry or make it paradroppable with airborne.