COH: Europe In Ruins

Like Smokaz using tank reapers, and so many before him- Shab has shown the current meta of players that the Super Pershing is broken. It isn't a legitimate World War II unit. Why can't I get a Centurion Main Battle Tank?! The Tiger Ace is not nearly as imposing since it cannot move and shoot while repairing using the armour doctrine.

This thread is a petition to have the Super Pershing removed as a unit. Just post your names and if you are for or against its removal as a playable unit.

If it bleeds, we can kill it.

SP must go.

Anyone have the replay?

EIRR isnt a historic mod you numpty.

If you think the SP is broken now you obviously dont recall the flank speed APCR SP of old.

And i still think your headbutting the wall in terms of balance, there is no team or head of balance.

Bringing up how broken another unit may have been in the past is irrelevant really. Just because something was broken before doesn't mean it's OK for something else to be broken now - but I digress.

There is something wrong with the SP - what it takes to fix it is certainly up for debate and has been debated to death already. What pisses me off is something being in the mod that is clearly broken, but no one is available to make the decision on how to fix it.

It should be removed until such time as someone has the correct fix and can implement it. I believe I can just disable it in the SQL, but I am not positive on that. I also do not know how to do it, but I can probably find out.

i am against disabeling it , thats all i have to say, i don't care how op the unit is that wat makes ppl come back to play the mod, if u want to disable the sp then should disable all Reward units,until everything is properly balanced.

anyway the sp is not OP thats wat they were saying 4 days ago about the JT as well when i had 57 kills with it, its the armor doctorine that makes the unit survivable.

No other unit is off the charts in terms of competitiveness like the SP- every other unit or reward unit when combined with doctrine buffs is still pretty much tolerable.
It is not the SP in itself that's broken. Its designed around giving the Allies a super-heavy like the KT. It has the same range as a KT and a similar weapon, but it has a faster reload and more speed/accel in exchange for sacrificing the KT's massive health.

The problem is not the SP, but the double tier 3 move-and-shoot-at-80% repair mode its given with the Armor Doctrine. This is in combination with the availability of getting two repair kits. Thus you get a totally new breed of predator.

Perhaps Ick, who is very enthusiastic about coding, can be tasked with removing it until there is a revamp on the part of a potential new team of developers and moderators?

Thank you for your consideration, guys.

The SP is one of those units that'll rip you to bits if you aren't expecting it, but will fall flat on it's face if you build a company with it in mind - Kinda like facing 88 companies.

Run a full medium tank Armour coy against an 88 coy without realising it and you're in for the equivalent of a living hell unless your team mates can bail you out.

However, bring a well equipped Tank Hunters coy to an SP coy and bad times will be had by the SP when it's having to dodge Teller mines, tread breaks, APCR Marders/JagdPanthers and the likes. Hell any company with a heavy focus on vehicle disablers will give it a rough time.

Saying that though, the SP definitely does take it to a new extreme, mainly because the Allies have no other super heavy at all besides it.

Unfortunately I disagree that the SP is comparable to regular strats like armour spam or 88s, because of the brokenness of the moving and shooting double repair. Nobody's making threads about 88s or armour spam or the like because they're counterable, whereas the SP  has two repairs that basically do not infringe on its usage at all and is a super-heavy.

You are right that they are counter-able, but the point is that in the hands of the best players, certain things in the meta become apparent. Those on par as the best players can counter and beat each other on any given day. Unfortunately, like smokaz in the past- who was the best player for a time- and now shabtajus, there just isn't a way to effectively counter the super pershings double rolling and shooting repair without dedicating your entire company to that sole purpose, and in effect probably losing the game for your team.

Having to dedicate an entire company as one high level player facing another, in order to just kill A SINGLE UNIT- not a company, as you have pointed out as any company is counter-able- is an indicator that there is a feature that is out of place in the game.

The Super Pershing I feel is on par with the Tiger Ace- when the Super Pershing DOES NOT have the moving and shooting double repair kits. The Tiger Ace is not a problem in my opinion at all.

Even if there were some crazy buffs included in the doctrines instead of the moving and shooting while repairing Tier 3's, this unit would NOT be over powered. Its just this very combination that makes the game Arcade Mode for a good player, and the single unit hardly counter-able even by equal quality players.

Thanks for listening!

Cool, then bring the Maus back. :)

Maus wasnt removed because of historic inaccuracy, it was the fact that it required a team to invest more then 85% of their AT ability to kill it.

That and at wars start it was impossible to kill.

Your arguments are contradictory and I remember many situations and I saw a lot of movies where was a mouse dying.
Especially Airborne were fatal.

Perhaps many players were not smart enough to kill a Maus and perhaps the same players are not smart enough to kill a SP.

This video https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PKqWFhjnORc

The only reason the maus died, was the piats triggered a mine.

Otherwise it would have just kept rolling backwards

The Maus was removed from the face of the planet because it was fucking stupid.

No sense of balance, no sense of purpose, the unit from concept to iteration was just straight up retarded and it should have had the hammer dropped on it LONG before I got around to it.

This drive to get rid of the Super Pershing due to its effectiveness when employed in conjunction with the armour doctrine top and bottom tier 3s, is not solveable by bringing other past over-powered units back in order to implement some ludicrous attempt at balancing it for the axis. The goal is to improve the game with logic and reason, not discourage a consensus on overall balance.

To be clear Bear, the Maus was NOT over-powered whenever you or Chain used it- but when Nikomas and one or two other very high level players on his team happened to use one each in a single 3v3, the same problem would arise on the part of equal quality players- they would need to bring companies dedicated to defeating that single unit and face losing regardless.

The Maus is different from the SP in that it just had way more health than even a KT, but in my opinion it was less difficult to fight than the current SP with double moving and shooting repair kits. The Maus was less over-powered in the state it was when it was removed than the current combination of the Super Pershing with top and bottom tier 3s, and it was removed for purposes of balance.

As the Allied super-heavy, the Super Pershing is fine as a unit in and of itself, however it is virtually intolerable with two mobile-combat repair kits. It would be enough to disable the two doctrinal abilities of being able to move at 80% and being able to shoot at 80% while repairing, but it is the only unit which is drastically outside of the echelon of reasonable balance when implementing these doctrinal abilities.

I don't care we want MAus back,... we as community player want it back so it should be back, or remove SP for the time being until solutions found

Just we have this problem with almost every unit.
Some player are be good with every unit and some player are be good with her favorite unit and for others it always looks as if this unit OP.
In this manner you will in a conventional way never find a balance.

There is balance to be found using my example, Bear. If two players are of equal skill level, ie. the best players in the mod, then they should be able to defeat one another on any given day. Things that prevent this dynamic are game breaking.

Axis have a plethora of AT weapons, mines and crippling abilities.

Just because its Shab trolling you all with his gimmick builds dont mean something is outa wack.

We all know despite shabs scumbagly projection he actually has the micro of a Korean SC2 player.

He's excellent with the SP exploit, and he's excellent at keeping reward unit LV's alive with the same ability, and hes excellent at captajus. But in all honesty, why can this super-heavy tank be super fast, extremely bounce-prone-armoured, indeed very fast, with tons of health, and have a great main gun in all respects, plus extremely fast reload... be able to have TWO repair kits for like 250 MU or w/e it is- and move and shoot while repairing?...

Mainly because people let him get it to vet 5 where it has all the bonuses to do most that shit.

Pershing armour is pretty decent. SP armour is Pershing -20%, which is good. Let it get to vet 3 and it's packing that with a further -20%, as well as another -10% at vet 4, not to mention it's +15% accuracy so it barely misses combined with Mark Target/Calling it In and the 20% damage buff which makes it's medium range/long range splash utterly lethal... (Not gonna bother with the full ramifications of these numbers, but some basic brain power should tell you it's bloody significant - for example, the -20% then -10% pen makes a Tiger's BASE penetration go from 0.7 vs standard Pershing to 0.4032 vs vet 4 SP, neverminding range mods)

I can bet it wouldn't be half the problem as a stock SP, rather than a vet 5 SP. There's a fuck ton of buffs that are being applied which give it a massive amount of room for error if you cock up here and there.

Disable it though? Break it's engine or tread break it? It's another crawling heavy regardless of how tanky or accurate it is. But, that requires effort, and frankly, fuck effort, right?

Yeah we have no other choice but to have a specific counter company every time...

Exactly the same situation for the MAUS, except the maus has more hp, eats mines, and has more range on its big splashy gun.

Isnt that the name of eir tho niko, remember coys and build effective counters.
Well rounded coys just dont work.

Yea, my assumption that eirr actually wants to move forward with a semblance of balancing is most likely a mistaken one, lol.

Building any PE company you must have at least 1-2 LAHT's with thread breakers. It's common sense isn't? You must buy paks/atgs/25pdrs also you need AI, support weapons and indirect fire. Basic rules building company right? Amount of certain units depends on what you strategy and game tactics you are going to use isn't? So where is the problem niko? Lack of imagination or maybe you don't follow basic rules needed to have a good company in EIR:R enviroment. I am really surprised that some guys CAN'T find good counters to certain units when EIR'R offers to you so many different units and doctrines...

No offense niko but your skills are questionable so as micro and game logic. I have killed deadbolt's, skaffa's, smokaz's, eliegren's veted SPs and i don't see a reason to say SP is super OP and you need dedicate all your company only for 1 unit to be killed. Many games i have played vs you niko and if you want i can tell you  few things where your problems start dealing with SP.

Those are fair points Shab, but please keep something else in mind.

The history of Eir has always shown the best players will continue to find the most powerful units and exploit them to their utmost potential. This does not mean the unit is OP by default, it just means that unit or combination of units is going to be the most powerful.

We can then look at those units and determine if there truly is an issue or not. I would suggest we start by asking the simple question: Does a competent player have to dedicate an extraordinary amount of resources to combat the unit with very little to no chance of success? Does the unit fit in the spirit of the mods intent in regards to game play?

One of the downfalls of this mod is how it degenerated into players being forced to build gimmick companies to counter gimmick companies. Simple as that really. When players do not want to play because they know every battle is going to be a gimmick followed up by a unit that by all accounts is op, interest is lost and active participants diminish.

Another downfall of this mod was the development team's mistake of catering to the elite player. Elite players will always be a very small percentage. Catering to them ensures you will always have a very small community. Elite players bore quickly and move on unless excited about a new exploit or slaughtering the masses.
The larger market, the mediocre player, will eventually move on depleting the player base.

But I digress:

Like most of the reward units, The SP was never balanced by a balance team who took the time to consider all the variables including doctrines & Vet. The Dev team just threw shit in cuz it looked cool and continued the self destructive attitude of "we will fix it later".

I think it is safe to assume any competent active balance team would be assessing the SP right now and implementing changes to either the base unit, doctrines affecting it, veterancy, or a combination of all.

I'm not saying I'm better than you Shab, but although I am able to make a successful SP-Killer profile, its something that has not been possible for the vast majority of players. I pack extensive AT in my regular company, and in a regular battle with balanced teams, although we can get the SP down to its last legs (the most recent game against it, we had it damaged engine with no more repairs and 40% health), the killing blow is lacking. So your broken unit requires a separate profile to counter. I've also killed Skaffas SP, and many others, and I've killed your Taces, shab, but this SP requires more attention clearly- both in terms of killing it and in terms of balance. It's a case where the most broken thing is exploited by the best, obviously.

So many of the reward units are OP, and they are in effect not really "reward" units at all, since everyone gets them frequently- especially all of the "silver" card units. They are so abundant that they are no longer exclusive or rewards. A rework is needed, and at least the most OP ones should be removed pending a rework.

I just raped niko with 51 kills p2 and once again he come to forums...

P2 is fine, but the tiger ace is able to move as fast as a jeep... and pop blitzkrieg, lol...
Besides, we won that match Shab. So you got raped lol

i can always take here a print screen of scores if needed  ;)

but we should keep this on topic

Yeah- so do you think its fine from a balance perspective to have the Tiger Ace be able to move like a jeep, have 2 repair kits, and have the Blitzkrieg ability? And how about the Super Pershing with its ability to move and shoot at the same time as repairing while having dual repair kits? Won't the best players abuse these mechanics and disadvantage everyone else from regular and, more or less so, balanced games? Give us your thoughts, because this clearly concerns you.

yea jeeps is UP, need buffs  :D

Don't skirt around the questions, scumbag. You have nothing to say about these mechanics being broken?

yea  jeep be broken, needs to be faster4sure  ;D

Take your own advice and stay on topic. Clearly you agree that the Super Pershing and Tiger Ace are overpowered- nothing to indicate to the contrary?

I never said that. It's your own words. I said you can make counters to any unit or strategy it's only your micro and skills must be at certain level to kill some so called OP units


L2P

While you can certainly kill SP's/Aces if you focus all your effort on it, the effort required to kill them is very unporportional to the cost/pop of those units. I don't think anyone is arguing that killing one is impossible, rather that trying to kill one is likely to lose you the game in the process.

This SP discussion sounds almost exactly the same as the one that made us take out the Maus, I'm not saying take out the SP but adjustments do seem in order imho.

My words were simply questions directed at you to see if you think the current mechanics of the SP and TA are OP, and in 3 posts you have failed to provide a single insight or counter-argument, and relegated your responses to banter unrelated to these questions- which are the topic of this thread. This is the balance forum, and you are diverting from a meaningful and insightful discussion relating to this issue.

If YOU, shab, cannot produce a single shred of argument as to why the current mechanics of the SP and TA are NOT OP- then what are we all to think here? You're the man of the hour- lets hear what you really have to say on this topic shab.

What do you mean broken mechanics? Is it when 1 unit rapes you? I call it bad luck or L2P.


Short story in 6 steps why niko is mad:

1) niko gets AB spam
2) shab comes with single p2 and kills half of his coy
3) niko goes to forums
4) niko demands justice and nerfbat for rew units
5) uncle Shab is good guy offers him some lube
6) niko is happy now, aint gonna hurt so much next time.

You have failed, with another try at posting in this Balance thread, to produce a counter-argument to the current proposed argument that the SP and TA mechanics in their present state are OP.

The arrogant, defiant, and blatantly unconstructive demeanour that permeates your posts in this thread is indicative, in my opinion, of someone who is prone to such exploitation as these game mechanics, and is desiring to troll with exaggerations and induce reciprocated anger through his mindless targeting of myself- instead of engaging thoughtfully and showing manners in at least fundamental respect for fellow players without flaming.

Once again shab, you are blatantly flaming and off topic in the Balance Forum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrjhkRIsAiw


dance niko

Clearly you need to be reminded that this is the Balance Forum, and there is an issue that is being thoughtfully debated and discussed.

You are both off topic to be honest.

Shab, I let you back in the balance forums and warned you that you would not get any additional warnings.

I will do so publicly now so I don't get a bunch of QQ from people about you being removed. This is your one and only warning Shab. If people troll you, too bad. Post about balance or don't post at all.

Niko, knock it off with the policing of others - that's my job, not yours.

It is an unfortunate state of affairs when the Tiger Ace is able to move like a jeep, have 2 repair kits, and have the Blitzkrieg ability. And also how the Super Pershing has its ability to move and shoot at the same time as repairing while having dual repair kits.

Won't the best players abuse these mechanics and disadvantage everyone else from regular and, more or less so, balanced games?

As far as current balance problems go, others simply pale in comparison to these two units when they are combined with the correct exploitative doctrine abilities and when implemented by the best players. At least until there's a developmental reevaluation and rework, both the TA and SP should be put into reserve by Development.

One of the coders can remove the TA and SP- putting them on hiatus until a better solution is found. My idea is to make these super-power units uniquely not be able to receive doctrine buffs. Another idea is to debate the cost of them, and make them very costly in terms of resources, so they are not auto-take exploitative units as they are currently.

Its not the doc buffs that are the problem, its the vet buffs stacking with them.

Lightning War is giving the Tace the speed OF A JEEP, and blitz gives them the blitzkrieg ability and two repair kits- whereas without its mobile shooting double repairs, the SP would be a joke. I wouldn't mind any stat buffs if these features were not available to them.

I'm honestly in agreement that they should be disabled until the time comes around that they can be properly balanced. Will that ever happen? Who knows, but it's better than having them in the game atm.

We got to kill a calliope with a rocket arty today. That was some old school shit right there.

In all seriousness, the TA and SP are broken and need to go. If there were devs Im sure it could be fixed, but since that's not the case they must go.

In all seriousness, get some suggestions together and I'll look at it during the weekend.

Mainly from what I can see, the mobility is the primary issue here.

My suggestion is to make it so that the SP and the TA are not able to be affected by doctrinal options, and thus only get a single normal-use repair kit. This is a fix that does not eliminate them from the game so they can remain as neat token reward units. Regular Tigers and Pershings even with doctrine buffs still wouldn't hold a candle to these two having no doctrinal input.

It's a suggestion I thought of to, yes, but the problem here is to then designate what units should get doctrinal buffs and what shouldn't, while the most noticable the TA/SP are hardly the only ones that get silly with doctrines. (Double HVAP, 200+ damage Sluggers anyone?)

In all honesty, I think a case could be made for reward units not getting doctrinal buffs, but being balanced to be compeditive with t4 doctrinal units in the first place. It's a thought, altough I don't know if that work would ever get done currently.

And we need to make sure we are not just creating an additional make work project by suggesting every single reward unit should be treated the same.

There is no written law anywhere that says just because one unit does not get influenced by docs, none should. That is old rhetoric from a failed dev team of the past or whining forum posters who bitch no matter what gets done.

Simply put, try the fix on the units that are clearly a problem. If it solves the problem we are done. If it does not solve the problem remove the vet. If that does not solve the problem, then try the long drawn out, hardly successful trial & error approach to changing stats.

I don't get why we always feel the need to reinvent the wheel and that all units must be handled exactly the same. Reward units are not core game units. They were never designed with the same process as the core units, so lets stop trying to use the core unit systems to fix them.

Just remove the docs from them and see what happens.

For the SP and TA the removal of doctrine buffs is the only thing I can think of short of their removal pending a rework. A possible alternative is nerfing both their speeds to slower than a KT, but then lightning war would still affect the TA, both would still get 2 repairs, and the SP could still shoot and move while repairing with its ridiculous frontal armour and amazing main gun with amazing reload...

So its the attrition thats the problem with the SP.

Having OBM makes it impossible to attrition the unit.

As for the TA how does lightning war possibly compare ?
Stacking with blitz to give you limited bursts of 6.5 speed ?

SP's reload is 6 seconds, the same as the Tiger, the Sherman and pretty much anything else with a multi-puprose mid-high tier gun.

Doctrine doesn't drop the reload time if you're going dual T3's for mobile repairs, and nothing in the vet brings it down. It is constantly 6 seconds, except for the very short period of the Calling it In ability which only drops it by 10%.

The main gun being amazing is true, for the purposes of AT. For AI, it's meh until vet (1.15), mark target (1.2) and Calling it In (1.2) are used. A stock SP is just as frustratingly shit at AI as a base Pershing due to 56% accuracy at long range, and 75% at medium and closer. Unless of course you have the RNG gods watching over you, then it'll work great for you, but for the rest of us, mark target and CII is essential until vet 2, and MT still remains a very good idea anyhow.

Front armour is only ridiculous with vet. Standard SP armour is Pershing with 0.8 incoming penetration. That makes it pretty good, bringing Panthers from 60% down to 48% without range mods. Panthers can still shoot and scoot fairly well when backed up by ATG/Marder/whatever though. It's when vet gives a further 0.8 and then another 0.9 incoming penetration that it just starts bouncing the shit out of everything that isn't a Pak40/88/HEAT/APCR equipped unit. Ideally, the Pershing shouldn't really be getting any incoming penetration buffs with vet, but rather a health increase or an incoming damage decrease if you want to make it last longer.

Shooting and moving whilst repairing is broken on just about everything (In EiRR's current environment) and doesn't need a paragraph to explain why.

TL;DR version: Big wall of text explaining how the Pershing is only as amazing as you're making it out to be because of it's broken vet and stacking abilities. Didn't even bother with the TA because the same kind of argument applies to it.

Did you check the numbers for the SP's current reload for what it actually is in the game? It seems to me to be definitely much faster than 6 whole seconds, or maybe that is a buff it gains with vet? Without the doctrine abilities, no matter how many buffs it gets with vet, it would literally not be a serious concern for anyone in the community. The shooting and moving while repairing is extremely powerful, but on the SP it's just outright broken. And as I've said, the TA can move like a jeep: absurd. Plus the TA gets to pop blitzkrieg 3 times and dip the scene as it chooses. Both of these units also get two repair kits with doctrines. Clearly the doctrinal buffs are the issue. I'm not even concerned about them having their crazy vet buffs if they don't process the doctrinal buffs.

get corsix, open eir  find 90mm pershing gun check reload speed will br 6 seconds.

I hear ya, it must've just left a strong impression on me that I was mistaken about the reload. Regardless, any of its stats are tolerable as long as it isn't getting doctrine buffs.

After reading this and Hick's wall of text, you may be on to a fair point here. Moving shooting and repairing is pretty fucking broken as he said. Add that to a unit that takes an UN-proportional amount of resources to take out and it is simply retarded.

Reworking the vet tables is probably a lot of work that no one really wants to do, or will take months to ever see. I don;t think anyone here is really in the mood to watch another 2 months of nothing while we debated the vet on a unit or how to rework it for this specific unit.

Just remove the doc abilities and lets get on with playing some games. It seriously frustrates the hell out of me that everyone wants to reinvent the wheel and debate for 10 pages and 6 weeks when a simple flip of a switch literally fixes 90% of the issue.

You're right that it doesn't compare, but it MOVES AS FAST AS A JEEP when combined with Lightning War. I'm not nearly as concerned from a balance perspective when compared with the Armour Doctrine double tier 3's on the SP, but REALLY FFS?! Plus Blitzkrieg to pop when it needs to escape danger. Although not equal, the similarities couldn't have not dawned on you.

There's no similarity between Blitz+LW and OBM+Expertengies.

Nothing compares to OBM.

The TA for all its strengths is still hopeless vs RRs n Smoke.

Actually a vet 3 TA can shit all over an RR charge in smoke by just driving up to it and popping it's S-Mines. Considering RR's have the same penetration front and back, you don't even have to worry about exposing your ass in the process. After that, you just keep backing up and wait for the smoke to sod off and then eat up the AB with your lulzy HE rounds of doom piece by piece.

Also, if my wall of text was read properly including the TL;DR part at the end, you'll have noticed that I mentioned the TA suffers from the same problems as the SP. I simply couldn't be fucked pulling it apart after I just pulled apart the SP.

Honestly, I've never liked EiRR's repair method anyhow. Always wanted it to go back to Engineers, just more refined than the old ways - IE actually using leftover MU in a company to use for repairs on your Engineers and the such rather than just having unlimited repairs so long as you keep your guys in one piece. That's a completely different discussion in itself though.

As for the SP specifically, get rid of it's incoming penetration buffs at vet3/4 and replace them with incoming damage buffs of the same quality (Yeah, sure, it'll still take a beating but it'll still progressively go down to it's actual counters) and then disable it's ability to move, shoot and repair. All fixed. The TA I'll look at when I can be arsed - Speaking of which, are it's AP/HE rounds still bugged to shit in certain circumstances? Haven't used one for a bit.

I agree with you, Hicks and XIIcorps. But Tank may be right in also disabling the TA's doc's for now and seeing how it affects things. The difference is that we can re-integrate the TA's buffs later, whereas the SP won't be getting its  OBM+Expertengies back. Does a regular Tiger with Lightning War move at the same speed or is the TA slightly faster?

bump; lets see these changes get implemented.

By ?

Tank's offered to implement the changes once Nikomas sends it to him, since Nikomas isn't able to log into the server at the moment. The fix is fast.

If it does happen, please add Villers-Bocage back to map rotation while you guys are at it. Tired of all 4v4's happening on Carentan or Schjindel.

The amount of whining people that can't handle an urban map irritates me to no end. Re-add Villers Bocage and give us the option tbh.

Best part is, I like it as both axis and allies, but everybody cries "OH NO WE CANT DO THAT YOU MUST BE RUNNING PIATS OR STICKIES". But then they'll grab an open as shit map for 88's, lol.

So whats the new news?

Piats are lol at the best of times, and stickies arent dangerous till Vet 2.

Rule of thumb vet 2 rifles stay away from.

Tbh the tace is fine even with say BK + dub repairs + heat rounds t4 after all if you dislike someone having a tace you just go airborne and get some rrs an AB rifles with stickies ( which i think AB rifles shouldnt get simply because it is just grief )  tocounter it.

Oath the amount of times ive lost a regualr tiger due to AB rifles with stickies dropping on top of it and it getting stuck is bullshit.

This, and aces die just the same way and the smine launcher is not an effective detterent/counter since only AB rifleman needs to survive toget the insta sticky off.

its only necessary the SP doesn't get doc's, and the TA would be worth evaluating without doc's that make it faster than a jeep yo

Yeah, But i mean, Its not like such a doctrine actually has any effect once you run over a mine or someone lands airborne rifles in your backfield to sticky you, HEAT rounds BK and Dub repair is pretty much the most powerful doctrinal you're going to find for a tiger ace, And i can tell you right now that even that doesnt enter the realms of overpowered the SP does, Simply because of a combination of allied offmaps (Bombing run/Rocket run) That can force you to retreat the tank before utilizing your two repairs, And the airborne doctrine, With instant explosion sticky bombs and 20% plus pen RR's its one of the easiest way to take down any SH/H tank And if you cant completely kill you'll have killed the engine which leaves it vulnerable to aforementioned offmaps, And also forces it to expend one repair regardless of how much health it has, If doctrinals are going to be removed for the tiger ace then i think it only fair to have LATHT's and dub panzershreck tankbusters that can airdrop and fireup no?, My point is, The two tanks face very different opposition and the only one of them that faces something that can fuck it up with any real sense of certainty is the tiger ace, And that is mostly because of sticky bombs, I guess sticky bombs are sort of fine, If you didnt get them on AB rifles and regular rifles didnt get the range increase at v2. Anyway i think that that is the chief reason the SP is generally viewed as being orders of magnitude of OP greater than anything in the game, Simply the fact that the axis has no airborne sticky bomb rr combo to fight it.

Just my 2 swedish kroner.

So, what you're saying is, bring back cloaking double shreck storms.

On a serious note though, PE is full of the stuff you're talking about. LATHT is like a reuseable sticky, rx-7, henshel runs, at nades, teller mines.

Cloaking Storms only as vet unit support the high level player again and all other be disadvantaged but as an alternative proposal a cloaking feature for double Schreck-Storms as vet unit and with vet 0 unit you must decide between clocking or double Schreck....

But idk., what happens if a vet 0 Stormstroop picks up a Schreck or something like that ...

It keeps its ability to cloak, which is why single-shreck storms can't cloak.

Adding more broken shit is not the fix to something broken.

Also, this:


This idea that the Axis is the only side who suffers from BS abilities is complete nonsense. Axis disablers, particularly of the PE and even worse the TH variety are nothing short of vicious. Just having LATHT's with their tank-range sticky bomb on recharge is a complete pain in the ass. If you really want a SP dead, go build a TH company full of Tellers, LATHT's, magnetic AT grenades and APCR Marders. Brownie points if the SP isn't expecting it - But even if it is, it can't do shit until all Teller mines are cleared and all LATHT's are dead and it can never charge you so long as PzGrens with magnetic AT grenades are around.

Combo a TH player with a Luftwaffles player and you'll be nothing short of a nightmare when FSJ's are eating up the AB support and a Teller/LATHT/MATgrenade + Henschel run combo is dropped on the SP. Could even drop an 88 in there if you wanted to be a real asshole. An X-7 should finish it if somehow all that BS didn't do the trick.

So yeah, the idea that only the TA faces something that can "fuck it up with any real sense of certainty" is complete hogwash. Any unit in the game can have a company created with the sole intent of fucking it in the ass 100%.

Except minesweeepers those guys cant be countered.

you can drop in falls with a schreck and fausts

yeah, if im playing a SP i never use it against a pe player.


LATHT are just complete hounds when it comes to using any armor at all.

even the few times i have played PE i use like 5 they are so cheap and and a APCR marder will just shred any armor.

i rarely lockdown and it's  silly.

Then no Schreck's for Storms and for this cloak ability.

Can you set that they can not pick up AT weapons?

I use the double Schreck Storms anyway (too expensive) but I want to cloak Stormtroops with nade bundel since Skaffa has hooked me with this shit ...

Has everyone reached a conclusion that SP rapes Wehrmacht more than panzer elite? Sounds like it!

has anyone tried the new t17s.

they are beyond useless.

Yeah, disagree on that Aero. T17's work fine in competent hands.

(http://cdn.meme.am/instances/500x/47181165.jpg)

TBF, everything works fine in competent hands*



*mandos not included

im also pretty confused by the captain. i' can't really see how just laying on the ground in a bad situation any good.

Can we just make the captain Dirty Harry?

honestly, remember how broken brit blobs were tho? like Wind's RCA coy, that shit was so nuts. maybe brit officers would need a re-work before we go back to that.

always i whining bout my mando, but before i have to say always there is no other replacement
RCA lit-up nerf, and mando red devil, but always there is no other doctrine or skill for handle these thing

brit officer need some nerf, but not like this
and if brit officers nerf like this, same WM officer need to,

RCA coy no, maybe the few times nades got broken with their 40 range.

Winds thing was MLT+Brens+litup

How do you get markerlight with lit up? Skaffa did brens with LT and markerlight, while Wind did scoped enfield/ bren/ rifle 'nade tommies with multiple LTs for dual heroic charge and a Cpt- officers with lit up.

mando LT with lit-up whatever
the problem is now there is no Lit up buff, and no more mando buff.
and that's not the problem cus of LT or captain, they'r nerfed or delete, so it's not important right now
the problem is bout brit offcier nerf and there is no other replacement
and same WM deffensive officer play like dat, for example Gork play

Sorry, can you try an re-structure your sentences and not use text language.

I'm Scottish, but  not even i can make sense of what you are saying. At all.


As Far as officers go, They were coded the way they were told to be, with a few bugs i admit, which I'm currently fixing.

this balance is awful and unfair, rebuild DOCTRINE first not brit officers

I don't think you realise how much time and effort it takes to even code one branch of a doctrine, let alone a whole doctrine. And how would you suggest i rebuild it? I'm here to fix bugs. I'm not here to code entire doctrines.

By all means, learn how to do it yourself and then do it yourself. I'll be happy to check your work, and then have it peer reviewed by the community.

Kyun its been said countless times, to rebuild and balance doctrines you cant just build one. You have to build all 12 and they have to be balanced to eachother, you also have to balance 256 doctrine unlocks and combinations.

A few people have done 6-8 doctrine rebuilds, but to date no one has been able to rewrite all 12 and all 256 combinations in said doctrines.

Think we're done here boys.

Let's try and get thins back to how they should be; proper balance threads for singular issues.