Balance? Balance.

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[omgNiko]

You have failed, with another try at posting in this Balance thread, to produce a counter-argument to the current proposed argument that the SP and TA mechanics in their present state are OP.

The arrogant, defiant, and blatantly unconstructive demeanour that permeates your posts in this thread is indicative, in my opinion, of someone who is prone to such exploitation as these game mechanics, and is desiring to troll with exaggerations and induce reciprocated anger through his mindless targeting of myself- instead of engaging thoughtfully and showing manners in at least fundamental respect for fellow players without flaming.

Once again shab, you are blatantly flaming and off topic in the Balance Forum:

What do you mean broken mechanics? Is it when 1 unit rapes you? I call it bad luck or L2P.


Short story in 6 steps why niko is mad:

1) niko gets AB spam
2) shab comes with single p2 and kills half of his coy
3) niko goes to forums
4) niko demands justice and nerfbat for rew units
5) uncle Shab is good guy offers him some lube
6) niko is happy now, aint gonna hurt so much next time.

[Shabtajus]

Once again shab, you are blatantly flaming and off topic in the Balance Forum:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrjhkRIsAiw


dance niko

[omgNiko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BrjhkRIsAiw


dance niko

Clearly you need to be reminded that this is the Balance Forum, and there is an issue that is being thoughtfully debated and discussed.

[tank130]

You are both off topic to be honest.

Shab, I let you back in the balance forums and warned you that you would not get any additional warnings.

I will do so publicly now so I don't get a bunch of QQ from people about you being removed. This is your one and only warning Shab. If people troll you, too bad. Post about balance or don't post at all.

Niko, knock it off with the policing of others - that's my job, not yours.

[omgNiko]

It is an unfortunate state of affairs when the Tiger Ace is able to move like a jeep, have 2 repair kits, and have the Blitzkrieg ability. And also how the Super Pershing has its ability to move and shoot at the same time as repairing while having dual repair kits.

Won't the best players abuse these mechanics and disadvantage everyone else from regular and, more or less so, balanced games?

[omgNiko]

It is an unfortunate state of affairs when the Tiger Ace is able to move like a jeep, have 2 repair kits, and have the Blitzkrieg ability. And also how the Super Pershing has its ability to move and shoot at the same time as repairing while having dual repair kits.

Won't the best players abuse these mechanics and disadvantage everyone else from regular and, more or less so, balanced games?

As far as current balance problems go, others simply pale in comparison to these two units when they are combined with the correct exploitative doctrine abilities and when implemented by the best players. At least until there's a developmental reevaluation and rework, both the TA and SP should be put into reserve by Development.

[omgNiko]

i want aware there was any development

One of the coders can remove the TA and SP- putting them on hiatus until a better solution is found. My idea is to make these super-power units uniquely not be able to receive doctrine buffs. Another idea is to debate the cost of them, and make them very costly in terms of resources, so they are not auto-take exploitative units as they are currently.

[XIIcorps]

One of the coders can remove the TA and SP- putting them on hiatus until a better solution is found. My idea is to make these super-power units uniquely not be able to receive doctrine buffs. Another idea is to debate the cost of them, and make them very costly in terms of resources, so they are not auto-take exploitative units as they are currently.

Its not the doc buffs that are the problem, its the vet buffs stacking with them.

[omgNiko]

Its not the doc buffs that are the problem, its the vet buffs stacking with them.

Lightning War is giving the Tace the speed OF A JEEP, and blitz gives them the blitzkrieg ability and two repair kits- whereas without its mobile shooting double repairs, the SP would be a joke. I wouldn't mind any stat buffs if these features were not available to them.

[Audemed]

I'm honestly in agreement that they should be disabled until the time comes around that they can be properly balanced. Will that ever happen? Who knows, but it's better than having them in the game atm.

[Mysthalin]

We got to kill a calliope with a rocket arty today. That was some old school shit right there.

[TheArea]

In all seriousness, the TA and SP are broken and need to go. If there were devs Im sure it could be fixed, but since that's not the case they must go.

[nikomas]

In all seriousness, the TA and SP are broken and need to go. If there were devs Im sure it could be fixed, but since that's not the case they must go.

In all seriousness, get some suggestions together and I'll look at it during the weekend.

Mainly from what I can see, the mobility is the primary issue here.

[omgNiko]

In all seriousness, get some suggestions together and I'll look at it during the weekend.

Mainly from what I can see, the mobility is the primary issue here.

My suggestion is to make it so that the SP and the TA are not able to be affected by doctrinal options, and thus only get a single normal-use repair kit. This is a fix that does not eliminate them from the game so they can remain as neat token reward units. Regular Tigers and Pershings even with doctrine buffs still wouldn't hold a candle to these two having no doctrinal input.

[nikomas]

My suggestion is to make it so that the SP and the TA are not able to be affected by doctrinal options, and thus only get a single normal-use repair kit. This is a fix that does not eliminate them from the game so they can remain as neat token reward units. Regular Tigers and Pershings even with doctrine buffs still wouldn't hold a candle to these two having no doctrinal input.

It's a suggestion I thought of to, yes, but the problem here is to then designate what units should get doctrinal buffs and what shouldn't, while the most noticable the TA/SP are hardly the only ones that get silly with doctrines. (Double HVAP, 200+ damage Sluggers anyone?)

In all honesty, I think a case could be made for reward units not getting doctrinal buffs, but being balanced to be compeditive with t4 doctrinal units in the first place. It's a thought, altough I don't know if that work would ever get done currently.

[tank130]

And we need to make sure we are not just creating an additional make work project by suggesting every single reward unit should be treated the same.

There is no written law anywhere that says just because one unit does not get influenced by docs, none should. That is old rhetoric from a failed dev team of the past or whining forum posters who bitch no matter what gets done.

Simply put, try the fix on the units that are clearly a problem. If it solves the problem we are done. If it does not solve the problem remove the vet. If that does not solve the problem, then try the long drawn out, hardly successful trial & error approach to changing stats.

I don't get why we always feel the need to reinvent the wheel and that all units must be handled exactly the same. Reward units are not core game units. They were never designed with the same process as the core units, so lets stop trying to use the core unit systems to fix them.

Just remove the docs from them and see what happens.

[omgNiko]

For the SP and TA the removal of doctrine buffs is the only thing I can think of short of their removal pending a rework. A possible alternative is nerfing both their speeds to slower than a KT, but then lightning war would still affect the TA, both would still get 2 repairs, and the SP could still shoot and move while repairing with its ridiculous frontal armour and amazing main gun with amazing reload...

[XIIcorps]

So its the attrition thats the problem with the SP.

Having OBM makes it impossible to attrition the unit.

As for the TA how does lightning war possibly compare ?
Stacking with blitz to give you limited bursts of 6.5 speed ?

[Hicks58]

For the SP and TA the removal of doctrine buffs is the only thing I can think of short of their removal pending a rework. A possible alternative is nerfing both their speeds to slower than a KT, but then lightning war would still affect the TA, both would still get 2 repairs, and the SP could still shoot and move while repairing with its ridiculous frontal armour and amazing main gun with amazing reload...

SP's reload is 6 seconds, the same as the Tiger, the Sherman and pretty much anything else with a multi-puprose mid-high tier gun.

Doctrine doesn't drop the reload time if you're going dual T3's for mobile repairs, and nothing in the vet brings it down. It is constantly 6 seconds, except for the very short period of the Calling it In ability which only drops it by 10%.

The main gun being amazing is true, for the purposes of AT. For AI, it's meh until vet (1.15), mark target (1.2) and Calling it In (1.2) are used. A stock SP is just as frustratingly shit at AI as a base Pershing due to 56% accuracy at long range, and 75% at medium and closer. Unless of course you have the RNG gods watching over you, then it'll work great for you, but for the rest of us, mark target and CII is essential until vet 2, and MT still remains a very good idea anyhow.

Front armour is only ridiculous with vet. Standard SP armour is Pershing with 0.8 incoming penetration. That makes it pretty good, bringing Panthers from 60% down to 48% without range mods. Panthers can still shoot and scoot fairly well when backed up by ATG/Marder/whatever though. It's when vet gives a further 0.8 and then another 0.9 incoming penetration that it just starts bouncing the shit out of everything that isn't a Pak40/88/HEAT/APCR equipped unit. Ideally, the Pershing shouldn't really be getting any incoming penetration buffs with vet, but rather a health increase or an incoming damage decrease if you want to make it last longer.

Shooting and moving whilst repairing is broken on just about everything (In EiRR's current environment) and doesn't need a paragraph to explain why.

TL;DR version: Big wall of text explaining how the Pershing is only as amazing as you're making it out to be because of it's broken vet and stacking abilities. Didn't even bother with the TA because the same kind of argument applies to it.

[omgNiko]

Did you check the numbers for the SP's current reload for what it actually is in the game? It seems to me to be definitely much faster than 6 whole seconds, or maybe that is a buff it gains with vet? Without the doctrine abilities, no matter how many buffs it gets with vet, it would literally not be a serious concern for anyone in the community. The shooting and moving while repairing is extremely powerful, but on the SP it's just outright broken. And as I've said, the TA can move like a jeep: absurd. Plus the TA gets to pop blitzkrieg 3 times and dip the scene as it chooses. Both of these units also get two repair kits with doctrines. Clearly the doctrinal buffs are the issue. I'm not even concerned about them having their crazy vet buffs if they don't process the doctrinal buffs.