Balancing Attack/Defend Mode

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[pqumsieh]

Alright, we started by discussing whether or not making R mode random was a good choice. Overall, the dev team feels they are on the right track with the change so perhaps we'd be better off discussing how to improve attack/defend rather then how to revert changes already made.

That said, what balance issues do you feel exist in attack/defend mode?
What could we do to elevate some of the imbalances?

I do not think the 88 is balanced on attack/defend mode. In a 2v2 it can cover the whole map if its narrow and in 3v3 it can provide a strong defense for a relatively low pop cap. Countering this unit is possible, but the cost is usually far greater then the cost taken by the defender.

Additionally, attacker advantages are not sufficient. Currently, a defender well usually hold 2/3 of the map, usually leading to a pop gain of .7 for the defender and .2 for the attacker. The population modifier for the attacker only works if they can gain additional territory. In most cases, the attacker does achieve 40 pop and is able to hold this for a period of time. However, the defender (again, this is the likely scenario) usually will gain 40 pop before the attack does. I think in order to balance things out, the attack should be gaining somewhere around .7 pop to start and the defender should be gaining .2. If the defender is gaining more pop (therefore more units) faster then the attack its only making that uphill battle even worse.

It has been argued that the attacker can pressure specific points and that the defender is vulnerable because they are stretched. This may be true on large/wide maps but not so much on narrow maps. That said, the warmap patch should take this into consideration and ensure that 2v2 maps are not narrow. As this again handicaps the attacker and benefits the defender.

Final suggestion, although not my own, is to reduce the starting pop of the defender, and increase the starting pop of the attacker. This way, you could keep the pop modifiers as is and directly modify the starting pop of the attack to give them the edge they need. I often find its a matter of units, being able to outflank your enemy in attack mode is very important, an extra unit or so can make all the difference.

Other thoughts?

[jackmccrack]

The only issue I see here is that the Flak88 costs 8 pop.

[Piotrskivich]

NEVER lower the defenders pop cap, less than 25 pop cap would mean not having decent units to fight Infantry or armor, plus then 25 pop cap call ins would be useless.

Raising the attackers pop cap by +5 or so might work.

[Smokaz]

Defending is almost always easier than attacking, thats just a basic game fact. As long as you start with a territorial advantage it is a type of defending and you have the better odds. If you didnt have a territorial advantage, defending would look stupid.

If anything, three minutes is too long for a team to prepare imo. Most people dont even use halftracks to rush pios/engineers to the arty line zone to start digging in when they are defending. The arty line is also pretty luxuriously unfair on a lot of maps. Make building tanktraps and sandbags FASTER, decrease the 3 minutes for the attack time to arrive to 2. That way you have to make some hard decisions on what and where you want to block.

As for the flak88, if you have lost your vet 3 flak88 truck to a jeep as it was setting up you all would stop nagging so hard about it. Quad kills a 88 truck in one burst. It can ONLY safely go up in defensive mode, any other mode its a LACK of scouting from the opposing team.

Finally, allies can dig in VERY well too, its not something only axis can do.

[pqumsieh]

@ Jack: Yea, the pop cap on the 88 is pretty low. But I do not feel that is it. The problem with the 88 as an attacker is that it is probably the most efficient defensive unit. For 8 pop cap, you can lock down most of the map with another additional 20 pop. This allows the defender to take some additional units and move them towards the attacking side.

In other words, the pop cap of the 88 is only part of it. Increasing it to say 10 or 12 wouldn’t really reduce its efficiency enough to warrant not using it, but it may reduce the amount of assistance provided on the attacking side. Good point, it’s worth more discussion.

[pqumsieh]

@ Smokaz: I agree with you in many regards. If you can get the 88 before its setup you are golden, but like you said, if the person settign it up is a defender that wont be so easy. Although allies can setup good defenses too, they dont compare to an 88's efficency in attack mode. However, this has already be discussed in another thread so lets drop the 88 discussion for now.

You mentioned raising the artillery line? That might be one way to ensure defenses are not too close to spawn points.

@ Piot: I have no issue with increasing the attackers starting pop to 30 and leaving defenders at 25. The point is to give them some sort of number advantage to counter the fact that they are dug in and usually in green cover.

[Blitzen]

Facing an 88 on attack is just as bad as facing a howie off the start.

[CafeMilani]

please leave it as it is.
sometimes u attack, sometimes u defend or play R mode
deal with it.
i think ppl do bad at attacking because they just call arty and think they can break through by shooting their howie or mortars all the time-> fail!

[Baine]

Howitzers are as common as 88s. They can wipe an assault on allied fortresses of doom just as easily.

Defend mode is the only mode where an 88 has the time to set up and be secured, but even that is going to change, once more of the doctrines abilities are unlocked ( earlier start in attack mode etc).

And the 88 player will have to bring more units to support the flak, that will render him useless for his team when allies flank.

[Blitzen]

I think its pretty even for both allies and axis.  Attacker gets the short end of the stick.  I've won every defend I've had, even against better players.  And I've lost every attack, even against worse players.  The defender outpops you, and it a good defensive team can relocate quickly to stop any breakthroughs.

[Mysthalin]

And the popcap bonuses that are supposed to be granted for the attacker..
They don't work.
Actualy, they grant you a debuff so that you will start losing pop earlier in the game (normally, in the 20-25 minute mark you're still gaining popcap, in attack mode, you start losing your pop at that point).

[Unkn0wn]

EIRRmod will fix it soon.

[Piotrskivich]

Heil most mighty EIRRmod die besten Modifikator

[Baine]

Heil most mighty EIRRmod die besten Modifikator

Heil EIRRMOD, dem besten Modder!

[RikiRude]

The only problem I have with attack/defend mode, is being rushed as the attacker. I played a game on chateau, which, it's the last time im ever playing that map where we were supposed to attack and the moment the spawn buff wore off we were attacked by ACs and clown cars. and it would not have been as bad if it were on any other map, it's just that that map is a god damned cluster fuck when you spawn, they had no problem picking off our bunched up troops, and it was a down hill battle from the start.

Like I said attack/defend mode has always worked, and always been balanced, the defending team is SUPPOSED to be at an advantage, that's just the rules of war. But in general it's the fact that axis weapons work so well for defense.

If anything, I think it's harder to defend against a good axis team because of their mortars. you can't counter mortar a mortar as allies without artillery, and it's very very easy for axis to mortar there way up the defenses.

[gamesguy2]

If the popcap bonuses for the attacker worked I think the current problems will be somewhat mitigated.

I still like smokaz's idea to reduce the deployment time for defenders to two minutes though.  That way if you want to set up a doom fort you need to sacrifice some pop and use a halftrack.

If this is done then the various deployment timer modifying abilities like overpower/overwhelm/defensive's fortify/offensive ops etc will need to be somewhat reduced in potency.

[Jazlizard]

I agree with gamesguy which is schocking  . I've played several games against good players as an attacker, and by the time we finally break through, our pop is already turned negative and they've steadily gotten more pop then us.

I don't think starting with extra pop would be fair, but perhaps having both sides go up equally a bit longer would help out, you can only bring on so much indirect fire and break-through type units at a time without just throwing units away against a good defense.