More KTs and Jagds!

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[Warlight]

Noone has addressed the fact that the otehr T3s or whaterver you can buy are simply better than said late game units. 

Perhaps the KT the Jagd and the Pershing and the Tiger should all just Unlock about the time you can buy your T3-T4. 

They are a liabuility as it is, a huge PP sink, and the person who choses two other Choices that actualy help the rest of his army is going to be at the advantage.

[AmPM]

Noone has addressed the fact that the otehr T3s or whaterver you can buy are simply better than said late game units. 

Perhaps the KT the Jagd and the Pershing and the Tiger should all just Unlock about the time you can buy your T3-T4. 

They are a liabuility as it is, a huge PP sink, and the person who choses two other Choices that actualy help the rest of his army is going to be at the advantage.

This.

Actually combining the unlock with a buff to the type (Unlocks Jadgpanther, increases rate of fire of AT vehicles 10%) makes it more appealling to take.

Also the PP cost for a unit that is just a big giant target makes it not worthwhile. Its 14-18pop of Unit that can only engage 1 target with a real weapon at a time, while you can get a different mix of units that can do a ton more damage and engage multiple targets at once.

[DasNoob]

increases rate of fire of AT vehicles 10%) makes it more appealling to take.

So does just fixing the unit.

[AmPM]

But how do you make a t3 that affects 1 unit in your entire army, that takes resources away from the rest of it, worth getting?

I can get a Jadg, or I can get boosts to my entire AT vehicle line, + bonuses to other units.

I have 2 t3 slots, why would I want to waste one on something I will have 1 of, that will cost me PP if I lose it, and that does not outperform any other AT weapon in its role for its price?

Lets see, Jadg, or APCR rounds that affect all my AT vehicles, and TB Ambush which is just awesome?

Let me think....which will get more use, which helps my company more.

Maybe move heavy tank and arty unlocks to rank levels as default? Might make them more common, making their natural enemies (other heavies) more common.

[wildsolus]

because it's a motha fuckin jagd!

[gamesguy2]

No kidding, elite infantry like commandos, airborne, storms, etc that vastly outclass regular infantry for both effectiveness and cost effectiveness, is unlocked with the doctrine.

But jagds and KTs that basically isn't all that more effective than normal tanks is a tier 3?

[VictorTarget]

Tanks are fancy, mmmkay?

[gamesguy2]

Tanks are fancy, mmmkay?

Yes, that seems to be the rationale for making heavy tanks tier 3 and cost a bunch of pp just to buy the first.

Elite infantry is much better than heavy tanks, but they cost nothing.  Its pretty funny.

[NightRain]

Tanks are fancy, mmmkay?

Yes, that seems to be the rationale for making heavy tanks tier 3 and cost a bunch of pp just to buy the first.

Elite infantry is much better than heavy tanks, but they cost nothing.  Its pretty funny.

Cause they aren't huge, tons of health, strong armor. But their more cost effective than a big tank can ever be. Huge ammount of stuff and one ATG can stop its movement and if its Two its chances drops and if it is three like it usually is, it will be idiotic to send it in to try to gain something.

[Schultz]

With the amount of light vehicles and medium tanks you are seeing these days I am amazed that there are so few players running these vehicles.  They are made for destroying these swarms we are seeing.

The tuffest part of these tanks will be the manpacked AT you have to fight through, but the amount of XP that you can gain on your vehicles per game is insanely high.  Look at my panther, the highest vet unit in the game.  

Support your tanks, NEVER over extend past your infantry screen and never keep it out to hold territory by itself.

The SP cost on these two tanks might be a lot. but in general you will make your moneys worth in kills each and every game.

Before you get amazed salan maybe its better to see for yourself what it is to have a jagd in your company.
I wholeheartilly agree to everything ampm says about this thing.
Everyone gets light and medium tanks because theyre efficient and cheap. It is made this way by balance. Even the new support system favors them, whereas it is a big nerf for big tanks. Having to cater a big ineffective tank will cost you the game. I may have played with the jagd before the reroll because i like the damn thing but that doesnt mean that i think its worth having one.
Dont even try to compaire it to a panther with its turret and its purchasable mg.

Gamesguy cant be more correct in his observation. You have elite infantry roaming around unchecked unlocked with a doctrine that become the best blobbing ingredient that roll over all other infantry and on the other hand you have a huge gap between light vehicles/medium tanks that outperform and outefficient every big tank.
So hows that surprise you ?
Sure we can all vet our jagds or kts if we thats all we care about, but is this the issue ?

[Malevolence]

Baine - The fourth of the Quad SuperPershings appears to have disappeared in your story? :p

[Warlight]

Theres alot to be said about unlocking late game things, but people will more likly just be over supplying on their elite infantry late game when they have PP to burn, and still not taking a Heavy tank.

I can't say I know how to fix it, but at least replace it in the doctrain choice, Not like tank hunters have much going for them special unit wise, starting with the het and then getting the Jagd once we hit a curtain level makes perfect sence. 

I think their population is alright in game, but they still use so much fuel I'm not willing to give up my core of medium tanks to use one. 

You almost need to put them in their own catagory:

Now bare with me,

Make them Free, they can still take up population in game.

So all the heavy tanks are free, Pershing, Jagd, Tiger, King Tiger, and I guess that Tiger Ace thing. 

So for every doctrain at Rank 7-8 whatever you get yours (unlock your super heavy), if your doctrain dosn't have a heavy tank, you get a resource boost slanted towards your doctrain, so infantry and airbourn would get a boost of Manpower and munitions, scortched earth and Luft might get manpower and fuel, whatever.

Finally and this is the complicated thing, and one or both of these things need to happen. 

Heavy tanks were rare, and costly and definatly weren't sent into every battle.  Heavy tanks generaly do most of their damage against new players who do not have full companies. Because heavy tanks are seperate from the main resrouces (being free) require the battle level to be of a curtain lvl before they can be brought in.  Theres already a system in place, the one that determines the the PP and XP.  If the battle isint at least 5 for both sides, heavy tank may not enter.  So no king tigers in newb stomps and so forth.

Secondly, you could limit the number you get per week, instead of paying PP.  You get Two KTs for said week, if you loose them you SOL till next week.  You still won't see them in every battle, but you also won't see them suicided in every battle. 

I still have on problem I've not worked out, and that is that the non-heavy tank doctrains resource boost isn't limited as much.  Maybe they could get an off-map combat group sort of thing.  A seperate call-in that they could build of Anything they wanted, almost. 

I don't have time to continue, now, hopefully this idea isn't total crap.

[brn4meplz]

KT's and Jagd and Tiger/TA are not invincible units. their Limitation's have always been their enormous cost(well over half your fuel) Giving resources boosts to non heavy tank doctrines isn't a very good idea. I personally wouldn't be objecting to getting them automatically when you unlock tier 3. but then you'd need things to put in their place. or even seeing them as Tier 2 choices so you'd see more of them. but it might make heavy tank doctrines too appealing(and no to mention put the Tetrarch unlock to shame!)

[Latios418]

I don't see why. Half the time a Tetrach is more useful than a Heavy Tank anyways. I mean, one Tetrach isn't better than a heavy tank, but it's not 600 fuel either. It's just as good cost-effectively.

[dravidian]

i agree with them being  free, but i don't agree that they should be limited in battle

[Baine]

Baine - The fourth of the Quad SuperPershings appears to have disappeared in your story? :p

Silly me, i forgot to mention that he got crippled by an ATHT and tried to limp off the field with damaged engine/maingun destroyed while someone called William Wallace built an 88 next to it, it got finished just in time to shoot it out of control when it drove right towards the spawn into safety.
Well not quite, a cloaked kettenkrad stood right in the way and caused it to explode a milimeter before the spawn.

The kettenkrad driver proceeded to make a carrier in the showbusiness and got roles in the movies "Taxi Taxi" and "The Transporter".

He died at the age of 76, when he was out fishing with his son Goerge Ketten Jr.

[gamesguy2]

KT's and Jagd and Tiger/TA are not invincible units. their Limitation's have always been their enormous cost(well over half your fuel) Giving resources boosts to non heavy tank doctrines isn't a very good idea. I personally wouldn't be objecting to getting them automatically when you unlock tier 3. but then you'd need things to put in their place. or even seeing them as Tier 2 choices so you'd see more of them. but it might make heavy tank doctrines too appealing(and no to mention put the Tetrarch unlock to shame!)

Thats easy.  Decrease heavy tank rof by say 10% across the board.   Then make a tier 3 where all the heavy tanks are right now that increases their rof by 20%.   So everyone with the heavy tank doctrine can still unlock the heavy tank, but buying the tier 3 makes them a lot better.

Done.

[Smokaz]

There's a sense of hippocrisy here, imo. Everyone complained about the CCT Pershing, even though this was 20 pop, was penetrated by almost all axis at weapons consistently and beaten by jagdpanthers and king tigers.

Super tanks will have to be as powerful as the CCT Pershing was all across the board to be "cool" and useful to the broad crowd, I think.

[gamesguy2]

There's a sense of hippocrisy here, imo. Everyone complained about the CCT Pershing, even though this was 20 pop, was penetrated by almost all axis at weapons consistently and beaten by jagdpanthers and king tigers.

Super tanks will have to be as powerful as the CCT Pershing was all across the board to be "cool" and useful to the broad crowd, I think.

No.  The CCT pershing had 45 range and enormous sight range, plus it raped infantry.

Neither the jagd nor the KT rapes infantry even half as well as a cct pershing.   And they cannot spot for themselves either.

[Smokaz]

The CCTP was a offensive weapon - the supporting british tank provided no defensive bonuses to the super tank, only offensive ones. It was good against other armor, but not superb. Paks raped it and its long range accuracy could really fail sometimes.

I hope CCT is reimplemented for the pershing. Since I begun playing EIRR, I was never pleased with fielding or watching other people's pershing performance. I always felt it fell short of the only other well-performing super tank, the king tiger.

It was complained about since it could own panzershreks at range with a spotter. Boo-hoo. Use a pak.