My Thoughts On EiR

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[Lt_Apollo]

It’s been a while since I lasted posted or was online but I believe there are serous fundamental problems in EiR.
Table of contents
Part 1
1. “Elite High Powered Units and The Uselessness Of The Common Soldier”
2.”Lack Of Tactical and Strategic Goals On The Battle Field”
3. “The Common Soldier And How He Should Be.”
4. “The Tank And Its Role”

(discount this paragraph)
Elite High Powered Units and The Uselessness Of The Common Soldier
This has been prevalent since the original EiR and even in normal CoH. In my opinion the focus of the game play rewards using only elite troops who have in my opinion taken the Infentry role completely, this was fine in the old eir days as these elite troops where either drastically expensive or fairly balanced (I use this term loosely). One example is airborne, airborne in old EiR where basically the ultimate special forces soldier, there mission back then was to get BEHIND enemy lines and disrupt enemy forces, this included destruction of strategic targets (repair bunkers) and light artillery (nebels). But they where rarly used as normal Infentry due to there ability to perform these task superbly, due to the new units in the airborn category as well as the virtual removal of all strategic targets has made dropping behind lines unnecessary and leads the airborne soldiers to adapt the role of heavy AT frontline Infentry. Due to there survivability they perform this role just as well as their original role of disruption. In this lies the problem.
  Airborn should not be frontline Infentry ever, it dose not fit with their original role and only leads to the replacement of original units with “this next step up”. If the common Infentry is to compete I believe that all elite Infentry needs to be “put back in its place” we need to change up the unit so that it fulfills its role exceptionally but it dose not become the “universal soldier”. This is what has happened with airborne; this is what has happened with all elite Infentry.

Lack Of Tactical and Strategic Goals On The Battle Field
In old eir battles had motivation, there where always “objectives”, but now in my opinion the battle field has become just a meatgrinder or stalemate, there is no motivation to take risks to destroy an target as there are none besides the territory sectors anymore. In o9ld EiR a key strategic target was the rapair bunker and the surrounding repair base, this in my opinion offerd a command post in a sense that was key to sustaining a german army. While you had to sacrifice units to build sutch a base it added a lot of strategic depth to the game, for as long as you posed this you would always have decant Armour capabilities. This used to be THE target of all assaults and operations, it was the objective, Destroyer the ennemys repair capabilitys or lose the war of attrition. With this in mind ever game was focused sharply on eather pushing to destroy this objective, or counter pushing to drive the enemy away from your repairing tanks. Field pioneers assisted in this and would serve as dedicated servicemen in maintaining your army, this created a very realistic feeling as you where literally fighting a war for strategic superiority with each fraction dedicated to cutting of enemy supplies and isolating and destroying survivors. With the removal of all repairs this has left a major gap in all but the most basic stragic objectives, why assault when there is no need? Why risk you vet so you can do what? Destroy that howitzer? Naa OFFMAP. Destroy that pesky Mortar? Naa OFFMAP. EiR has become nothing more than a tactical frontline meat grinder that basicly offers no incentive to take risks or make strategic decisions.

The Common Soldier And How He Should Be
Another main factor is the shier uselessness of the rifle, elite Infentry is extremely durable making it basically resistant to any basic weapon, rifles witch have been the staple point of WWII games are seen hear as the worst weapons in existence. In my opinion common rifles need to match or exceed close range weapons in shier damage and accuracy. As of now rifles are nullified due to the hyper durability of all but the most basic units. If you are rushing 3 squads in an open field and they have rifles, you should die. You should be ripped apart in seconds, not go charging on and go mow them down with high automatic weapons. You should have to think about how to beat rifle Infentry and be forced to take risk in order to beat even these basic units. This would give rifles a new purpose and make g43s highly potent as a high rate of fire rifle weapon that it really was. The m1was said to be the rifle that won the war, but hear its nothing for than a pop gun. By revising the rife you can reinstate common Infentry as mainline high damage troops that can do their part on the field of battle. A common ground rule for basic Infentry should be access to high cost high damage at weapons via either universal doctrines or upgrades, and common Infentry should also be able to aqire a high damage med-short support weapon with high killing power (not necessarily suppression).
There should be no docs buffing these units only doctrines buffing their capabilities, common Infentry should be the “universal soldiers”. Each doctrine should have a special section for customizing one basic soldiers capabilities through equal access to specialized gear, but at a choice at loosing that universal advantage. All rifle units should outperform their specialized cousins at all roles excluding their cousin’s specialization. (Note the induction of effective panzerfuast and highly effective AT grenades should be uniform to all general ineftry)

The Tank And Its Role
The tank was one of the main emphases of the Second World War, victory should be based on the player ability to use and maintain his Armour force. The medium tank should always be part of the battle, never should it be replicable by any other unit. all fractions should have a roughly equal tank witch has small but key differences, as with Infentry the tank should not be buffed by docs but given unique capabilities and specialization. I also think the main gun on all tanks should be able to 2 or 3 shot another medium tank, with the key factors being penetration and mouvoribility. Stationary tanks should be extremely vulnerable to hostel fire while mobile tanks should have a less chance of being hit by all at weapons, mobility and projection of force should be key hear. The main gun of tank should be AT or Anti Fortification or building, with coaxial MGs and turret HMGs being the main anti Infentry defenses. With the main gun having horrid accuracy against Infentry but large splash so that any thing but a complete miss with hurt your men. The main gun should not snipe Infentry, it should pond them into submission through splash that is similar to artillery fire. This means an Armour battery should be a highly devastating force. AT guns need to be adjusted to fit with this idea adopting similar cartelistic, they should not usually be able to penetrate medium Armour and should rely on mass fire to take down tanks at longer ranges. Mobile tanks should be resistant to the ATG, and it should fall to the AT trooper to take out hostel tanks at closer ranges (soldier with AT nades, panzerfuast, or bazooka/shreck). Armour should be able to outright defeat an AT assaulting the open but at closer ranges or urban envorments it should be extremely vulnerable. Light Armour and heavy Armour should be a redundant unit that just add to the capabilities of each armored column not replace it. Light tanks should be used exclusively for Infentry support but will always be vulnerable to all AT elements, heavy tanks should lack mobility but have the Armour and the guns to spear head assaults, they should be VERY vulnerable to AT Infentry but not ATGs or other tanks. The mainline tank should be the key factor in the battle not the heavies or lights.

I hope we can have a vivid discussion on all points of this mod in an effort to improve it. I may be wrong I may be right.

[Piotrskivich]

I don't agree on the point of ATG's, Anti Tank guns should be able to fight most any tank cost-effectively.


Infantry AT shouldn't be the main counter to heavy tanks.
In real life it was well night impossible to take out KT's with a bazooka.

[Pak88mm]

best anti tank gun of the war was the tank. then mines were next then arty then at guns then hand held at. so far other than schrecks tanks are still best at beating tanks. any infantry charging tanks like in CoH would be cut down hard core by coaxial and front mount mg. tanks were only vunerable to inf in built up areas and woods and without inf support. thought spam seems always prevalant in the end combines arms always is what gives people wins. i can vouch for that though i might field just stugs my teamates more than enough times provide inf, at and support weapon support.

[Lt_Apollo]

i see your point, in my defense i said that Hand held at would be only useful or close ranges in urban envorments.

"The main gun should not snipe Infentry, it should pond them into submission through splash that is similar to artillery fire. This means an Armour battery should be a highly devastating force. AT guns need to be adjusted to fit with this idea adopting similar cartelistic, they should not usually be able to penetrate medium Armour and should rely on mass fire to take down tanks at longer ranges. Mobile tanks should be resistant to the ATG, and it should fall to the AT trooper to take out hostel tanks at closer ranges (soldier with AT nades, panzerfuast, or bazooka/shreck). Armour should be able to outright defeat an AT soldier assaulting in the open but at closer ranges or urban envorments it should be extremely vulnerable."

[salan]

partly why i made FOF the way I did...

[pqumsieh]

salan, come on vent

[Lt_Apollo]

I don't agree on the point of ATG's, Anti Tank guns should be able to fight most any tank cost-effectively.


Infantry AT shouldn't be the main counter to heavy tanks.
In real life it was well night impossible to take out KT's with a bazooka.

if my common infentry idea is acepted, then yes infentry would be a counter to heavy tanks, you would isolate it, over run it, and then use AT-nades or stikis to disable it. during the war many havy tanks where lost due to them simply being over-run by hostle troops so i could see this happening in an urban envorment or an envorment where you are in close combat with heavier tanks. i think you have my definition of infentry AT confused with projectile only at, by infentry at i am including a theretical at grenaid for common infentry and stikis as well as a revised panzerfuast. this would let infentry by them selvs able to punish a lazy tank commander at close range and put more emphisis on tank command and increase the viability of infentry, heck while we are at it i would move for making basic AT grenaid a t1 for infentry doc to help deal with skirts.

[nated0g]

This is a PC game.

If you want realism, go play Realism Mod.

[LeoPhone]

i see your point, in my defense i said that Hand held at would be only useful or close ranges in urban envorments.

"The main gun should not snipe Infentry, it should pond them into submission through splash that is similar to artillery fire. This means an Armour battery should be a highly devastating force. AT guns need to be adjusted to fit with this idea adopting similar cartelistic, they should not usually be able to penetrate medium Armour and should rely on mass fire to take down tanks at longer ranges. Mobile tanks should be resistant to the ATG, and it should fall to the AT trooper to take out hostel tanks at closer ranges (soldier with AT nades, panzerfuast, or bazooka/shreck). Armour should be able to outright defeat an AT soldier assaulting in the open but at closer ranges or urban envorments it should be extremely vulnerable."

pff, ur guys r so no0bs!

STRAFLE RUNS WERE THE BEST AT IN THE WAR!
the bullets bounced off the ground, hit the fuel under the tank and tank got blown up.

strafle runs killed more tigers than shermans did.

[nated0g]

The cold killed more germans than the americans did.

Maybe everytime we play abbeville winter, for realism purposes, Germans should lose health per minute.

[SturmGrenadieren]

1. “Elite High Powered Units and The Uselessness Of The Common Soldier”

Yes, But bolt action rifles  Altho having a slower ROF they where lethal at range.
Semi rifles (G43/M1) Traded in a bit of ACC for ROF  stil more then decent weapons.
SMG's  (Thompson,Grease,  Mp40, Mp38 ,Sten MkI II III)  Lacked range doto a smaller caliber (.45/9mm) But great at CQB
Ofcourse smaller Caliber is less stopping power. anyway.
Assault rifles  (STG44)  The ultimate rifle  , Caliber , Range  and mag size.

Basicly impossible to do.   Lets say there was a way to implement this , You or somewhere would start whining that any unit with the STG out performs any other unit



2.”Lack Of Tactical and Strategic Goals On The Battle Field”

i somewhat agree here ,Maybe add Vic locations as holding objects? Acces roads? strategic locations.
Then you have  a mission instead of just doing what we do now.

3. “The Common Soldier And How He Should Be.

Yes, But bolt action rifles  Altho having a slower ROF they where lethal at range.
Semi rifles (G43/M1) Traded in a bit of ACC for ROF  stil more then decent weapons.
SMG's  (Thompson,Grease,  Mp40, Mp38 ,Sten MkI II III)  Lacked range doto a smaller caliber (.45/9mm) But great at CQB
Ofcourse smaller Caliber is less stopping power. anyway.
Assault rifles  (STG44)  The ultimate rifle  , Caliber , Range  and mag size.

Then lets take a look at quality , in its glory days The german soldier and veterans where allot better trained then its Counterparts.
and after good training comes Combat experiance  Again ze germans had more Exp.

4. “The Tank And Its Role”

Hell yea on more realistic Tank Gunnery! no more sniping!
Lets get Tank specializations!
And make them more Valuable

Axis :

Armoured personnel carriers

* Mittlere Schützenpanzerwagen (Sd Kfz 251)

Armoured cars

    * Leichter Panzerspähwagen (Sd Kfz 221)
    * Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (Sd Kfz 232)
    * Schwerer Panzerspähwagen (7,5) (Sd Kfz 233)

Light tanks

    * Pz Kpfw I
    * Pz Kpfw II

Medium tanks

    * Neubaufahrzeug
    * Pz Kpfw 35(t)
    * Pz Kpfw 38(t)
    * Pz Kpfw III
    * Pz Kpfw IV
    * Pz Kpfw Panther

Heavy tanks

    * Pz Kpfw Tiger Ausf E
    * Pz Kpfw Tiger Ausf B

Super heavy tanks

    * Pz Kpfw Maus

Tank destroyers

    * Panzerjäger I
    * Marder I
    * Marder II
    * Marder 38T
    * Jagdpanzer 38
    * Nashorn
    * Jagdpanzer IV
    * Panzer IV/70
    * Jagdpanther
    * Ferdinand/Elefant
    * Jagdtiger

Assault guns

    * Sturmgeschütz III
    * Sturmgeschütz IV
    * Sturmpanzer
    * Sturmmörser Tiger (Panzersturmmörser)

Anti-aircraft vehicles

    * Leichte Selbstfahlafette 2 cm Flak
    * 3,7 cm Flak auf Zugkraftwagen 1 t
    * Möbelwagen
    * Wirbelwind
    * Ostwind

Self-propelled artillery

    * Hummel


Yankee

Armoured cars

    * Light Armored Car, M8
    * Armored Utility Car, M20

Amphibious vehicles

    * DUKW
    * LVT


Light tanks

    * Light Tank, M1 (Combat Car, M2)
    * Light Tank, M2
    * Light Tank, M3
    * Light Tank, M5
    * Light Tank, M22
    * Light Tank, M24

Medium tanks

    * Medium Tank, M2
    * Medium Tank, M3
    * Medium Tank, M4
    * DD Tanks on D-Day

Heavy tanks

    * Heavy Tank, M26
    * Heavy Tank, T28

Tank destroyers

    * 3 Inch Gun Motor Carriage, M10
    * 76 mm Gun Motor Carriage, M18
    * 90 mm Gun Motor Carriage, M36

Self-propelled artillery

    * 75 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage, M8
    * 105 mm Howitzer Motor Carriage, M7
    * 155 mm Gun Motor Carriage, M40

Silly brits

Armoured Cars

    * Morris Mk I
    * Humber Mk II
    * Daimler Scout Car (Daimler Dingo)

Amphibious Vehicles

    * LIE 3

Light Tanks

    * Light Tank Mk VI "Vickers"
    * Light Tank Mk VII "Tetrarch"

Infantry Tanks

    * Infantry Tank Mk I "Matilda"
    * Infantry Tank Mk II "Matilda II"
    * Infantry Tank Mk III "Valentine"
    * Infantry Tank Mk IV "Churchill"

Medium Tanks

    * Sherman series

Cruiser Tanks

    * Cruiser Tank Mk VI "Crusader"
    * Cruiser Tank Mk VIII "Cromwell"
    * Cruiser Tank "Comet I"
    * Cruiser Tank "Centurion"

Tank Destroyers

    * Tank Destroyer "Archer"

http://www.tanksinworldwar2.com/tanks.php

But at the current time  Armor is expendeble (Looks at the allies )
Shooting at inf should be less Accurate  1 man is a small target especialy in cover.
 





Fyi

KT's could only effectivly taken out by CAG Aircraft, Hitting the top!  or tracking it, so that they abandon

[nated0g]

Hey, guys, I know exactly what you should do.

Go make a mod!!!

[SturmGrenadieren]

i was being rather sarcastic...with the list but ...yea..
If i could model i'd already have done it!

[Akranadas]

The problem with making a game realistic is that it can take out a lot of the fun.

Just go play Battle of the Bludge and you'll understand.

[nated0g]

Its the old "this game isnt realistic"  arguement I keep seeing stuff like (as examples):

"SHERMANS SHOULD DIE TO 1 88 SHELL!!!"

"FLAMERS SHOULD INSTANT KILL INFANTRY!!"

"M10S TURRET IN REAL LIKE TOOK 2 MINUTES TO ROTATE FULLY!!!"

I mean, this is a game, there are balance issues to think about. COH is a historically influence game. Key word being "influenced". Not historically accurate.

There are mods out there for that. Realism mod being one of them.

[ImmanioEiR]

SMG's  (Thompson,Grease,  Mp40, Mp38 ,Sten MkI II III)  Lacked range doto [sic] a smaller caliber (.45/9mm) But great at CQB

Just being a nitpicker and pointing out that these calibers are in fact larger than the rifle calibers used during the war (and today). Both US, Commonwealth and Soviet forces used 7.62mm (.30 inches) rifle and MG ammunition, whereas the Germans used 7.92mm. The SMGs, however, fire pistol cartridges, with a smaller propellant charge. One of the main features distinguishing the assault rifle, such as the STG44, from a SMG, is that it fires a shortened rifle cartridge.

These days the typical Western assault rifle caliber is even smaller, 5.56mm. The ubiquitous AK (in all its variants) are 7.62, though. The 7.62 HK G3 has also been widely in use, but many countries have switched/are switching to 5.56 rifles.

As for realism in a game... Some resemblance of realism can be a good thing, as long as it increases the fun. Too much, however, tends to take away from the fun in my opinion. As long as it's a game and not a simulation, gameplay > realism every time.

[todlichpanther4]

"My Thoughts On Eir"

Are wrong.