Luft 88

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[Smokaz]

The amount of slander the PE 88 and the fsj tb receive is just amazing

[Tymathee]

daaaaayum Smokaz...:claps:

[smurfORnot]

I will rather have 2 more falls squads with fg42 than those tank busters,but my company is buildt that way...maraders,fausts and panzerhackner + some vehiachles mines deal just fine with any armour I face...while falls are almost 'all' I need for ai role...
only have T3 unlock for lets say only 1 squad is kinda bad,u 'want' atleast 2 of them in company,what is already 500mun 
and to make them more usefull u need Crete veterans,which already limits your choiches ...

in right hands they could turn to be usefull...

but still,they seem mediocre T3 choice...

[Illegal_Carrot]

As I've been saying, I'd much rather have higher HP than soldier armor, at least on my FJ TBs. Tank cannons don't give a shit about solider armor, and still one-shot FJs like nothing.
But if you say it's a lost cause, that the devs won't listen, I'll believe you on that one.

So grens are only good in combinations with other units, in this case, the officer?

As for your second point, I never said Grens were only good with doctrine buffs or Officers. I said that with those buffs, Grens are better than FJs, even if those FJs also have doctrine buffs. Same with Storms. And non-buffed Grens/Storms are more versatile and survivable than non-buffed FJ TBs, too.

And this isn't just about combat/killing ability, it's about accomplishing their purpose with efficiency. Grens are versatile, and can handle any role without any doctrines. Storms and AB get both AI and AT capabilities in a single T1. Commandos get AI with one T1, and AT with another. So why is it FJs get AI with a T1 and AT with a T3? All these units (except AB) get non-doctrinal healing, too, which costs Luft yet another T3 . It really screws over Luft in that manner.
I'm not asking for mirror factions, but some reasonable consistency would be nice.

How about cost? A single FJ TB squad costs more than two FG42 squads together. In Luftwaffe, one of the most munitions-heavy doctrines, I don't have that kind of Munitions to spare. The ability to buy only a single Schreck would be nice, and is what I wanted from the beginning. FJs aren't fit for the tank-killing role that double Schrecks force them into; they're best as support/harassment units, which a single Schreck would allow them to do. Plus, they had only a single Schreck in the previous Luft doctrine, and no one ever complained about that.

Grens can choose to purchase a single or double Schreck or LMG, same with Storms and MP44s or Schrecks, and PGren Tankbusters with Schrecks. Why does this option not exist on FJs?

I guess if you pay 120mu for a one shrek squad, 250 for 2 shreks on FSJ inf seems viable.

Except in literally every case of being able to purchase one or two weapons (LMGs, all types of Schrecks, MP44s) the cost of the second one is greatly reduced.


But I guess we'll see in some time, if more people start unlocking and using them. Although looking at the leaderboard now, there's actually less so them than there was before...

[Heartmann]

Tbh i wanted to write a long exposé about how wrong you are carrot but i cant be bothered so im just going with a short response:

Your wrong

[brn4meplz]

Grens can choose to purchase a single or double Schreck or LMG, same with Storms and MP44s or Schrecks, and PGren Tankbusters with Schrecks. Why does this option not exist on FJs?
Except in literally every case of being able to purchase one or two weapons (LMGs, all types of Schrecks, MP44s) the cost of the second one is greatly reduced.

Except that doesn't Apply because FSJ's have no baseline 1 Schrek upgrade. I can tell you that if we gave them a single Schrek with an optional 2nd upgrade it would equal out.

[Smokaz]

As I've been saying, I'd much rather have higher HP than soldier armor, at least on my FJ TBs. Tank cannons don't give a shit about solider armor, and still one-shot FJs like nothing.
But if you say it's a lost cause, that the devs won't listen, I'll believe you on that one.

"I'd much rather have..."

Well, then you play wehr. This is a factional difference. That's how it works. Also use cover against tank cannons and they won't 1 hit your guys, especially with either +15 health or the -10% received damage T3.

Your PREFERAL of armor type isn't a argument. I have suggested a alternative armor type of infantry over and over internally and directly to the devs, so they are aware of the idea.

As for your second point, I never said Grens were only good with doctrine buffs or Officers. I said that with those buffs, Grens are better than FJs, even if those FJs also have doctrine buffs. Same with Storms. And non-buffed Grens/Storms are more versatile and survivable than non-buffed FJ TBs, too.

They are more versatile, how exactly? They can't ride inf ht, they cant cloak? Storms are less versatile if FSJ can cloak because 2 man FSJ shrek squads can jump in a inf ht to prolong their life, while still being able to cloak. And they dont inherent basic bonuses for just being in cover and ambushing either.

And this isn't just about combat/killing ability, it's about accomplishing their purpose with efficiency. Grens are versatile, and can handle any role without any doctrines. Storms and AB get both AI and AT capabilities in a single T1. Commandos get AI with one T1, and AT with another. So why is it FJs get AI with a T1 and AT with a T3? All these units (except AB) get non-doctrinal healing, too, which costs Luft yet another T3 . It really screws over Luft in that manner.
I'm not asking for mirror factions, but some reasonable consistency would be nice.

"And this isn't just about combat/killing ability, it's about accomplishing their purpose with efficiency."

The purpose.. of double shrek... fallschirmjagers.. is..not .. to combat.. and kill.. tanks?

Apart from the mindfart moment here is where your game knowledge falls flat. Shreks are not viable on their own as AT. They should'nt be because their penetration and damage is so great. Only their lack of accuracy keeps you from being able to run two double shrek squads against almost everything allied bar the presence of allied heavies (Churchill, Pershing). Running shreks as your only AT has severe defiencies.

How about cost? A single FJ TB squad costs more than two FG42 squads together. In Luftwaffe, one of the most munitions-heavy doctrines, I don't have that kind of Munitions to spare. The ability to buy only a single Schreck would be nice, and is what I wanted from the beginning. FJs aren't fit for the tank-killing role that double Schrecks force them into; they're best as support/harassment units, which a single Schreck would allow them to do. Plus, they had only a single Schreck in the previous Luft doctrine, and no one ever complained about that.

FG42s are 4 bars without supression. They are priced cheap for that. The Luft panzershrek is perhaps a tad overpriced, but I dont see how this is keeping people from using it. Do they expect it to fall down to less than 240 which is what two shreks in general across the board add up to ?

Grens can choose to purchase a single or double Schreck or LMG, same with Storms and MP44s or Schrecks, and PGren Tankbusters with Schrecks. Why does this option not exist on FJs?
Except in literally every case of being able to purchase one or two weapons (LMGs, all types of Schrecks, MP44s) the cost of the second one is greatly reduced.


But I guess we'll see in some time, if more people start unlocking and using them. Although looking at the leaderboard now, there's actually less so them than there was before...

Scorched and Terror don't even get double shreks.

Maybe if you'd spray less of your humus propaganda all over the forums, there'd be more of them. What does it matter, all doctrine choices have some early popular choices and then over time people find a setup they like.

[Illegal_Carrot]

Except that doesn't Apply because FSJ's have no baseline 1 Schrek upgrade. I can tell you that if we gave them a single Schrek with an optional 2nd upgrade it would equal out.

OK, then. Please, give us that option. I'd be 100% happy with purchasing a single Schreck for 120-130MU. Doing this would make me shut up.

I ran two single-Schreck FJs in the previous patch (back when doing so wouldn't cost you 1/4 of your total Mu resources...) and it worked great. They were effective enough for their cost (though they were only 105MU at the time), survivable enough (two Schrecks between eight men, instead of only four), and I never heard a complaint about them, either for or against.

They are more versatile, how exactly?

Def Grens can take two LMGs for a heavy AI role, or a single (for a lesser cost) LMG to act as a support/harassment unit. They can take two Schrecks for a main-line AT role, or a single one (again, for a lesser cost) to act a deterrent or hit-and-run unit. Grenades and Medkits are cheap and non-doctrinal on them.
To get these capabilities, a Luft player has to buy T1 + T3 +T3 unlocks, and still doesn't get all those options. No other doctrine has to dedicate every single unlock point (minus one) for these capabilities. I'm not asking to get these things for free, but to not have to pay such a retardedly high price (in terms of both Mu and unlock points).

they cant cloak?

Yes they can.

The purpose.. of double shrek... fallschirmjagers.. is..not .. to combat.. and kill.. tanks?

I never said that they shouldn't be out there fighting tanks, I said they were far too expensive to do so efficiently.

Running shreks as your only AT has severe defiencies.

Of course, but it's hard to run much of anything else when two squads cost 500+ Munitions. For that price, it'd be much better to simply run 4-5 50mm HTs backed by lots of Pfausts on regular FJs.

Do they expect it to fall down to less than 240 which is what two shreks in general across the board add up to

No, I'd imagine they want the option for a single Schreck. As of now, it's best to just take 2 PGren TB squads, even without ambush bonus. They're slightly cheaper, more survivable and (most importantly) save you three unlock point to go to something else more useful.

Scorched and Terror don't even get double shreks

That's because they have their own specialized infantry that other doctrines can't hope to touch.

[Artekas]

Scorched Earth has its own specialized infantry other doctrines can't hope to touch? Panzer pios?

[Smokaz]

Err.. at this point you've been reduced to a slimey goo on the ground. Your arguments at last. Okay, so grenadiers can get lmgs and shreks. Big whoop. Look - LOOK at all the stuff FSJ can get. They are infinitely more adaptable through doctrine choices than grenadiers can ever hope to be. Grens are a dumb, beefy direct combat unit. Luft has tons of finesse and spam options that have a much broader application than anything defensive gives.

Anyways, I surrender to your nagging. Add single shrek upgrades for FSJ for all I care. It doesn't matter to me, I'm not against it. But don't underplay the Luft doctrine, dont go on these rants that defensive is so much better BECAUSE you want a 1 shrek option. That's like attacking all cows in sight because you have a problem with hindiuism. Cheezuz, Louise. Calm down?

Finally, your gripe with this seems to be more related to shreks than anything else. If you think shreks are expensive you should just say so.

[Illegal_Carrot]

No I just want the option to buy a single Schreck. That's it. That's all I ever wanted here. Not having to buy a T3 for simple AT capabilities would be nice, too.

But people came in here posting mostly unrelated stuff ('You should get Medkits!'), and after I countered those points you jumped in.

I just want a not-shitty T3 is all. All the accounts I've heard of them so far make them out to be pretty terrible, and no one really uses them after seeing how bad they are. Unless all these people were, for some magical reason, lying about the effectiveness of FJ TBs, I'm going to remain unconvinced of their sheer awesomeness. We'll see if people change their mind and start using them. But I doubt it.
As of now, only two FJ TB squads exist in the entire mod...