All this 'create your doctrine' talk..

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[EliteGren]

I'm pretty sure what salan wants to do is let him do the doctrines and it would be nobody elses business. No waste of time, even if you "redesign" the mod. He'd be responsible for the design himself on the things he works on. This would also allow more time for the other members of the team who are being held up with doctrines to work on other things like bug fixes etcetera.

Honestly, by saying it could be a waste of time you are just pushing away a real big chance for EIR to grow back up again. It's not a waste of time if you don't let it be one. I fail to see how his coding work couldn't be used, no matter how you want to "redesign". Redesigning of doctrines was done more than 10 times over the last 5 or so years. It needs to stop, and it seems like you guys want to dive into it again. And if you aren't talking about doctrines, I fail to see how it would disturb salans work in any way. If salan had the rights of the design ownership of the doctrines like he proposed, this wouldn't be an issue. If I missed some other possibility that could make salans work useless all of a sudden, please elaborate tank. I just don't see it

[Hicks58]

First off, good to see you again Salan, I almost thought you'd advanced well past us EiRR scrubs, I had a lot of enjoyment testing that little side mod you did for CoH a couple years back.

If you're still reading this, then here is the biggest problem with EiRR's doctrines as it stands:

One doctrine alone can't be redesigned. Over the years it's always been the way, do a couple doctrines at a time and watch as the design philosophy changes over time as each gets implemented and you end up with a clusterfuck that keeps on going back over itself time and time again.

All of them need to be done at once, and they'd have to stay within the code already present in the EiRR launcher (It's a dinosaur, and it'd be a MAJOR pain in the ass to try and recode it - EiRRMod will readily testify to this).

Now the biggest problem we've had is that there is just too much content to try and do everything at once. 4 Factions, 12 doctrines, 36 T4 choices, 36 dual T3 choices making for a total of 72 different endgame options for players as well as filling in the T1/T2 fluff. It has been especially difficult because I'm a numbers person for the most part, creativity is by no means my strong point.

However, if you were interested in taking a crack at them with that in mind, have a chat to Tank and EiRRMod.

But Tank has pointed out that EiRRMod is developing a new launcher - I can't say how long that will take, but it does mean that whatever work is done on this launcher will at some point become redundant as the doctrine style is going to make a big shift. If that is something that you don't particularly mind, then by all means, chat to Tank/EiRRMod. I'd also be ready to assist you where possible and whilst I can't speak for the rest of the team, I imagine they would too.

[XIIcorps]

ew, tank still runs this show?

fuck me it lives


Also you guys keep mentioning EIR2.
That aint happening,  Sega will not open coh2 to modding. That would be taking coins out of their purses.

I think we as a community should pool our resources and ideas and get EIR to 1.0

[Unkn0wn]

What Alpha said. We can do a lot of the things we wanted to do for EIR 2 for EIR 1 still. Call it whatever you want; a rerelease, a sequel, whatever. It's going to offer quite a different experience for sure as it wouldn't just be the launcher, it would also involve a different approach to doctrines, the warmap, availability, etc.

With COH 1 being practically a F2P game, it's still very much possible for us to draw in tons and tons of new players, even without offering an entirely new faction, that is provided we actually make the game a lot more accessible, engaging and balanced and avoid the mistakes of the past.

[aeroblade56]

Shab, I have come to the conclusion that you are a fucking retard - I didn't think anyone could be as remotely stupid as you, but you have proven me wrong.

I am going to write this slowly so maybe your stupid ass can actually understand it.

I am suggesting that Salan would be wasting his time doing anything with the current mod as we are completely redesigning it. I am not saying we will not accept his work, I am simply warning him that it could be a complete waste of his time

My reasons for requesting he send these types of requests via pm is so fucking retarded idiots like Shab don't get their tiny little useless brains all worked up because they are too fucking stupid to think before speaking.

You are a fucking moron Shab - go away and play with yourself. Let the people who know how to use their brains have a discussion.

Oh the injustice.

Is there nawt but a man who speaks for the people?. this city needs a hero.

[tank130]

I just don't see it

Hopefully you do now after reading the posts made by additional Dev members.
Any work that is a substantial departure from the current doctrines would essentially be a waste of time.

Not once did I say or imply that we will not accept Salan's work. On the contrary, myself and every other dev in this mod has publicly stated we will accept any doctrines presented, as long as they are complete (all 12)

If Salan wants to create:

4 Factions, 12 doctrines, 36 T4 choices, 36 dual T3 choices making for a total of 72 different endgame options for players as well as filling in the T1/T2 fluff.

That will just be discarded over the next 12 months for a completely different doctrine design system , he can start as soon as he likes.


For some odd reason, some of you community members thought it was wrong of me to mention this to him and warn him he would be wasting his time. Perhaps you all feel we should have just used him with out warning and seriously pissed him off when we threw out all his work in a year from now?

I have the greatest respect for Salan and would feel like a complete ass for not warning him first.

[aeroblade56]

12 months?. seems kinda soon tbh. salad could prob code it fast enough.

[Spartan_Marine88]

I have the greatest respect for Salan and would feel like a complete ass for not warning him first.

Salan has a successful Mod, far more then EIRR ever was. I think you should be a lot more respectful in that regards, as unlike certain people he is able to actually plan ahead and execute ideas effectively

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=Synergies+Mod

Someone like this is a perfect person to get EIRR where it always should have been.

[salan]

My first thought is this post should have been made to Che or myself via PM. But not everyone is interested in a professional approach 

I also think this would be a waste of your efforts for the existing mod and launcher.
Adding new factions is exactly the life that needs to be put into this mod and it can not be done with the current launcher.

We are basically redesigning this mod from the ground up and will be releasing it as Eir2 with or without modding capability of CoH2. The design document has been started as well as work on the launcher.

So my thoughts are Wrong Time, Wrong place, but that does not mean it can't happen. Like Elitegren said :
Nothing in this mod is dependent on Che other then coding of the launcher. We have a dev team and we make decisions as a Dev team. Che is the only person with Veto power per say, but he has used it once in the 4 years I have been on the team. He never wants to use it. The only time he really even comes close to it is when none of us can all agree on a subject, then he reluctantly makes the decision.

In regards to the OP, it certainly merits serious discussion.

Could you further explain the details of this please?
 - If after using the design for a period of time the team felt changes were needed. Could our team make the changes or would we be at your mercy/schedule to make the changes?
 - How do you see the credits being made for your work?
 - From what design bases would you be starting?
 - Would you be doing the work personally or subbing to one of your other coders?
 - Would you be sharing your design with other mods or would we have the exclusive use?

You are right to be honest, I could have PM'd you or Che (I have talked to che recently via steam).  I was just browsing the forums and Speedy was harassing me to write doctrines for your public doctrine initiative.  I long ago decided I would revisit Company of Heroes when Synergies was complete, and I am almost there...  so I thought to post my question on 'is EIRR' ready or not.

Tbh this is why I offered it as a question. I was reading all your 'community doctrines' ideas.  But everything in that approach relies on a group of people to submit ideas, another group to adopt them, and then a portion of that group to actually code them.  How often is it you can make individuals happy let alone multiple groups of individuals.  Modding isn't a job.  The more links the more potential issues.  We've all experienced that sadly.

  Its a big step for anyone to even consider.

I had serious issues with coming to grips with letting someone else code the paladin in my mod.  Originally I had set out very important guidelines but soon realized I had to let go of them and go all in and let them have their peace of the cake as well, with some autonomy for their time/efforts.   

To be honest, I wouldn't expect autonomy within EIRR if I was to ever do anything for it.  Its to much to consider for a single modder when there is a team of devs at the helm already.  But that doesn't mean you can't shape the question around it initially

Your questions tank, I completely understand and respect.

I haven't read past your initial post yet, before I reply anymore I want to read the rest of the post contains.

[salan]

To everyone posting. 

Please lets keep it constructive if not positive.

[EIRRMod]

Hey guys, Ive been on holiday for easter break - and this is an awesome post tbh

However (And yeah, theres always a however ) - tank130 is essentially correct in that it may (probably would) be a waste of your time and effort salan, due to the way doctrines work being massively changed (No more T1,2,3 and 4s) - and its coming wrapped in a brand new launcher with a different way of working things from Launcher->SQL/Server->CoH

On the other hand, if its a project you'd like to fire up for the interim - making new abilities for your doctrine etc, then Im quite certain that the work there wouldnt be in vain at all - and probably all usable to some extent in our next revision (Other than the Tier type structure we have now).

If it works for salan, it may even work for other modders/community members to do the same - the ideas for new doctrines as we have them came thick and fast in the other thread - just bear in mind that the Tier based structure we currently have WILL NOT EXIST in EIR2.

Ya dig

[EIRRMod]

^^^^^
tl;dr?

Sounds like an awesome idea, go for it - and when the change over happens with launchers, we can work out what to do with all the cool bits salan has added =)
(With the warning that itsa-gonna-be-changin')

[Tymathee]

i think it could work, especially if there's a standard in place that they can't go past/must achieve.

however, i think this was kind of done before where certain coders/devs had a doctrine and they had sole design of it.

eirr needs stability most of all. too many rewrites, been in beta how long? we were really humming along once...what happened

[salan]

I simply wanted to ask if it was a potential option to add an opposing set of doctrines to the game.  IE something NEW on either side, that maintained the balance of the rest of the doctrines yet gave something new to enjoy.  (knowing the launcher limitations I knew where it would basically end up going)
 
If you read my OP its basically what its asking, is EIRR ready for it or not.

I've never been a fan of instability and rewrite after rewrite.  Doing the whole thing once and tweaking 'portions' of it from that point on ... its what I tend to do with my classes in Synergies.   I don't ditch the class for a rewrite because a few skills are out, or numbers are off.

EItherway,  I never intended the question to spark the anger from people.

[aeroblade56]

im a fan of salads torchlight mod.