[Axis/Allies] Super Pershing & Tiger Ace

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[TheWindCriesMary]

The Super Pershing and Tiger Ace are far, far too powerful and are upsetting the balance of the mod. In 3v3's they are a massive presence for their cost that, if supported reasonably well, can determine games. Adding in dual repairs and/or speed/accel/other buffs only exacerbates the issue. Veterancy (which is not at all difficult to obtain on them) is a further complication.

In a 2v2 this problem gets exponentially more pronounced. They shrug off most traditional forms of AT fairly easily and require a massive investment to effectively counter and deal with. It also leads to bad gameplay by allowing an entire company/battle to be focused around microing a single unit loaded up with buffs.

Solutions: An excellent first step would to limit repairs on these units to 1 and only 1. This is a good move that would dramatically change the game-changing nature of these units while still allowing them to easily earn their cost/be fun to use in a game.

Further observation could be conducted after this change to see if stat/cost/pop changes are necessary.

[Tymathee]

i say, get rid of all heavies. biggest tank should be panther. no tiger, no pershing, no king tiger.

[XIIcorps]

i say, get rid of all heavies. biggest tank should be panther. no tiger, no pershing, no king tiger.

you dont even play anymore,  I say ignore you outright.

[GrayWolf]

Nerf TA and SP by:

* Lowering max range by 5-7
* Lowering Firepower or Speed.

Those tanks don't have any weaknesses.

[NightRain]

Nerf TA and SP by:

* Lowering max range by 5-7
* Lowering Firepower or Speed.

Those tanks don't have any weaknesses.

Lets have Tiger Ace and SP rolling with 38 (SP, Tiger Ace AP) range which is less than standard tanks, good idea! No lets make Tiger Ace roll with 33 range (with HE) which is less than P4 IST when it is lockdown. Good idea.

Both of them are pretty much the same speed of their successors. Tiger Ace turns slightly faster and moves as fast as a P4 also has 0.5 more accel than standard Tiger.

Super Pershing is same as pershing. It has increased decell though.

Nerfing range nor speed won't change anything. Nerfing firepower makes them useless. The only true options are increased costs to field them which are the most optimal of changes and nerfing the veterancy boosts they recieve.

[XIIcorps]

or even just bumping their pop by 2 would decrease the amount of support they could field, thus reducing their overall effectiveness vs cost.

[GrayWolf]

Lets have Tiger Ace and SP rolling with 38 (SP, Tiger Ace AP) range which is less than standard tanks, good idea! No lets make Tiger Ace roll with 33 range (with HE) which is less than P4 IST when it is lockdown. Good idea.

Both of them are pretty much the same speed of their successors. Tiger Ace turns slightly faster and moves as fast as a P4 also has 0.5 more accel than standard Tiger.

Super Pershing is same as pershing. It has increased decell though.

Nerfing range nor speed won't change anything. Nerfing firepower makes them useless. The only true options are increased costs to field them which are the most optimal of changes and nerfing the veterancy boosts they recieve.

I think the TA has far better range than normal Tiger. Also PZ IV has -5 range when in lockdown. Looks like you're not playing for 2 months now, so wth are you talking about ?
It's about making a weakness. A single unit cannot be good at everything. TA/SP is :/
I would say that TA should be a normal Tiger just with these abilities. Same for SP, but better vs tanks, but smaller splash which makes him less effective vs infantry.

[NightRain]

I think the TA has far better range than normal Tiger. Also PZ IV has -5 range when in lockdown. Looks like you're not playing for 2 months now, so wth are you talking about ?
It's about making a weakness. A single unit cannot be good at everything. TA/SP is :/
I would say that TA should be a normal Tiger just with these abilities. Same for SP, but better vs tanks, but smaller splash which makes him less effective vs infantry.

Panzer 4 IST on lockdown has 35 range, 40 without lockdown so I know exactly what I said, it was you who didn't. Tiger has to choose between shell types on which one it is effective. 45 Range it is good vs Vehicles. HE shells 40 range it is good vs Infantry. Super Pershing is different in that regard.

[XIIcorps]

I think the TA has far better range than normal Tiger. Also PZ IV has -5 range when in lockdown. Looks like you're not playing for 2 months now, so wth are you talking about ?
It's about making a weakness. A single unit cannot be good at everything. TA/SP is :/
I would say that TA should be a normal Tiger just with these abilities. Same for SP, but better vs tanks, but smaller splash which makes him less effective vs infantry.

they essentially are just better versions of their regular selves with abilites, also having stat buffs.

The only thing wrong with their tide turning ability, is that they are just too cheap.
If your going to field them, you should basically field no other vechs, their field presence should also cost more pop.

[Smokaz]

SP sort of has too good armor, especially post vet 4 (hard to do?) Wouldn't mind it receiving 150 more hp if it lost its -received penetration on vet 4

Tiger Ace is too good vs inf in my opinion.  Just needs to be less splashy/inaccurate vs them

[GrayWolf]

SP sort of has too good armor, especially post vet 4 (hard to do?) Wouldn't mind it receiving 150 more hp if it lost its -received penetration on vet 4

Tiger Ace is too good vs inf in my opinion.  Just needs to be less splashy/inaccurate vs them

+1, Still I think they should have the same attack range as Tiger/Pershing

[TheWindCriesMary]

Removing the 2x repair kit capability on both tanks serves a key function: keeps the units competitive and "fun" while dramatically decreasing their contribution capabilities in a single game.

It may seem like a small change, but it is a strong first step. It also doesn't require us to brainstorm stat or price increases and such which have a far higher chance of not fixing an overall problem.

[Shabtajus]

what about TA TD berge?

[XIIcorps]

what about TA TD berge?

would be balanced.
You would be fuel deprived as PE already.
You literally could only field a berge and TA (until game progresses enough for pop)

You would have to scavenge wrecks, where as double repairs is just bought.

Depends on what happens to Berge really.

[TheWindCriesMary]

Given the huge size of the fuel cost for berg, the pop intensiveness (TA + Berg would be 24 pop), the small size of its repairs and the fact that you have to spend a t3 unlock to get it... this is all in itself a balance to using one in conjunction with a TA.

[GrayWolf]

PLOT TWIST

What if your friend is using Berge. This is what shab probably meant.

[ick312]

wth i was writting in another thread...

[XIIcorps]

PLOT TWIST

What if your friend is using Berge. This is what shab probably meant.

its still a 24 pop commitment out of 50
Thats half of your fielded army in 2 units.
Sure there would be great synchronicity but 24pop of say RRs would be a problem.

[TheWindCriesMary]

As one of the few guys around who actually uses a Berge, I can tell you that having a teammate use a berg is still more than an acceptable level of sacrifice to get 1 free shitty repair to the TA every few minutes and another shitty repair for every 100 munitions they manage to scrape together.

Taking up over 1000 fuel, 24 pop and a t3 unlock between two players is a great sacrifice. Not to mention repairs of the Berge size are better used on medium/light vehicles to begin with.