Petition For Return of Grenadier Dual Weapons

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[Lt_Apollo]

Ok well basically this is my opinion on the (in my personal opinion) pointless change to grenadiers. In my opinion the change to grenadiers dramatically reduces the grenadiers role as a heavy infantry units and reduces most wher players options for countering a threat. This nerf to axis AT and AI capabilities dramatically affects the fractions ability to hold ground, as they are unable to dish out the damage needed to stop most heavy enemy units.

It used to be that you could stop a tank rush with a trusty pak and shrek team but now due to the change the shrek team cannot effectively stop a tank from circling an atg due to its significantly lowered damage. While this can be avoided by having multiple paks it limits the flexibility of a wher player. Also lighter vehicles such as t17s can easily rush past these and circle them and the amount of pop required for multiple atgs and the units needed to protect them really just add to the immobility of a wher player and limits freedom to maneuver on the field, some times dual paks can not be a viable solution as in the case of a vivid back and forth battle this causes the player to be forced into lugging around atgs in order to attempt to counter an enemy push and often leads to a break in the line. Dual shreks gave the wher a lot more options in countering tanks in as 1 squad could stop a tank in its tracks this added to whers ability to project force but it also came at a major coast, for 1 squad of dual shreks you could get around 3 mp40 volks or around 2 atgs.

LMG42s on the other hand gave the axis player a truly powerful weapon turning the grenadier into the ultimate frontline soldier. This allowed the axis inf to hold the line and stop heavy American infantry such as rangers or airborne witch as of now go fairly unchallenged on the frontlines unless there is major support. In my opinion the return of sutch weapons could even the odds against British blobs witch currently go unchanged and are stoped only by the mightiest of defenses (unless the brit is a fresh noob). As of now in my opinion the axis lack any heavy anti inf short of close range MP40/MP44 infantry units witch have proven to be no match against units such as commandos and rangers and even bren squads. It is my opinion that LMGS will give axis a fighting chase (on equal ground) to beat back these heavier units where other elite axis troops canto. As it stands LMGS are one of the few medium ranged weapons that are remotely effective against sutch units and the inability to provide direct heavy fire support on the field really hurts the axis ant inf capabilities. It used to be if you where fighting a brit blob you would dig in pop a medpack and duke it out, now with the lack of firepower most squads can just shrug off the single lmg and crush your position (all except riflemen who fail). The LMG42 when compared to other weapons of its class really is nothing special, where as its direct counterpart the bren has an extremely high dmg and the ability to button tanks for cheaper price it also comes on a unit that is fairly reliable and usually surrounded by supporting officers and captains who add to this. The main strong point of the lmg42 was its extremely high rate of fire and ability keep enemy infantry at bay or risk being ripped apart at close to mid range. The sheer amount of bullets was daunting but also extremely expensive. Every time you used these units you risked an incredible amount of munitions double that of a bar squad or mp40 team, these units where effective but very costly.

Quotes from other players on the topic

Velocity76: PE player
I think that double shreks should return to how they were  because, allied elite inf all come with a second at wepon with a price that is affordable. and we axis players with the 1 shrek, cannot match the power of the allied war machine.

Crimsonrabbit: PE,Wher, and British player
I find it kind of find it gay but at the same time  i find it nice because my brit tanks  dont have to worry as much  i am British, Wehr, and PE.i think you should be able to purchase them if you are willing to pay 250 munis.

Dravidian: American Player
well now its easier to rip apart single shreks with light tanks and such, with duals it wasn't so easy. there are many more single shreks but they are far less potent, i actually think the axis need more dual heavy weps. It helps them a lot seeing as the allies have so much already. dual lmg's are probably the most potent unit in the game and to take that away from the axis and tell them that one lmg has to face commandos is ridiculous I have only played 1 or 2 games against dual heavy's and it was much tougher, and even for my small experience it was a huge change to take away duals.

Rocksitter: Wher player
To me double shrek, LMG Grens were not overpowered when compared with allied infantry, its not as if oh seconed shrek or lmg was a certain win so really if this is done the allies need some sort of downgrade, the Commadoes  price increase is a start.


In conclusion I believe the either reverting this or adding a doc to all fractions to add both would fix this problem, as of now having the player forced to pay PPs not to mention a losing a single t2 is to mutch for a single non game changing weapon, not to mention a basic one.

Idea on possible solution

I propose either a t2 or t3 that would add both weapons to the players grenadiers but also add a doctrine specific buff to the grenadier unit. this could include the following

Terror: Advanced Equipment
LMG42 and Panzershrek unlocked
10% suppression added to LMG42 and 10% dmg to both LMG42 and shrek

Deffensive: Frontline Veterans
LMG42 and Panzershrek unlocked
10% more HP on grenadiers 10% less incoming accuracy



Blitzkreig: Profesional Soldiers
LMG42 and Panzershrek unlocked
10% suppression resistance on grenadiers and 8% accuracy increase on Panzershrek and LMG42.

This is just one option to make the doctrine rout a viable option. It is my opinion something needs to be changed, I don’t exactly know what but currently in my opinion axis lack key elements in their infantry support and in an envorment like EiR that can be devastating.

[Smokaz]

They want ranger's to rape us now, my poor poor g43s. Oh why god did you do this to me? First my poor double lmgs, then the g43 nerf.

[Akranadas]

Its to reduce the reliance on Grenadiers and promote more diversity in Axis armies.

[Lt_Apollo]

um no, it promotes support weapon spam. this just nerfed the capabilitys of one unit.

[Rocksitter]

Its to reduce the reliance on Grenadiers and promote more diversity in Axis armies.

 I think the allied blobs would be the first to scream diversity with most of the games I play i see different builds from the Wher faction with or without the duel shrek or lmg but on the other hand most of the games I play allies have the same builds..

 I know about diversity I don't have over 3 of any unit in mt battalion..

[crimsonrobbit]

They want ranger's to rape us now, my poor poor g43s. Oh why god did you do this to me? First my poor double lmgs, then the g43 nerf.

WHAT DID THEY DO TO OUR G43s!!!!???

[CommanderHolt]

Its to reduce the reliance on Grenadiers and promote more diversity in Axis armies.

 I think the allied blobs would be the first to scream diversity with most of the games I play i see different builds from the Wher faction with or without the duel shrek or lmg but on the other hand most of the games I play allies have the same builds..

 I know about diversity I don't have over 3 of any unit in mt battalion..

Pretty hard to have "diversity" as British as there is only one main line infantry avaliable and the mobile support weapons are limited and overpriced. Non-Commando Players have very few flexible choices in order create a viatble fighting force. We are more or less shoehorned into this kind of fighting style.

[BigDick]

um no, it promotes support weapon spam. this just nerfed the capabilitys of one unit.

+1 someone who understands it, i am impressed

on one hand they say support weapon spam on the other hand mobile at/ai platforms get nerfed in its degree of a hardcounter

all advises you can give to wehr players is get an other pak38, mg42 and mortar 

but i feel for next patch something like "in reserve" decrease of mg42, pak38 to 1 and mortar to 0 with pp cost of 10 on each to make the mobile grenadiers more attractive

and hey why are you guys complaining you got some powerful T2 doctrine abilities because of that 

[Scyn]

To be honest I've really only heard one demographic resent the LMG42 x2 change. Which in itself doesn't say much, but it means we took a step in the right direction.

As for the x2 Shrecks change... our stance on this was that we either give it to PE as well or take it away from Wehr. And obviously we took it away unless you unlock it per a certain doctrine. But we did increase Faust damage, we gave fausts the ability to critical tanks ie: function like stickies. We've made changes to take things away and other changes to soften the nerf.

[Illegal_Carrot]

To be honest I've really only heard one demographic resent the LMG42 x2 change. Which in itself doesn't say much, but it means we took a step in the right direction.

And what demographic may that be?

[Akranadas]

You guys do know that the Volksgrenadier Panzefaust is pretty powerful these days right?

[Lt_Apollo]

BUT its not a replacement for the shrek. if you guys want to diversify start with the brits or americans! these changes to axis make no sense it wasnt even a problem. sheez what is it that you guys are realy tring to achive. as it stands whermatch is realy getting hit hard and nothing is being done about more pressing balance issues. no one asked for a panzerfuast upgrade, why force us to use a weapon that just dosnt cut it. and what about LMGS these weapons are key to fighting the extream amout of elite infentry the allys now field. some time i just dont know anymore, can we at least get a valid reasion or an outline or somthing! a reasion, i dont care if you just wanted to nerf axis to make more players go allys we just need a valid offical reasion!

[Scyn]

Your stance and unwillingness to see compromise shows that this was a crutch that needed to be dealt with. The faust may not replace the shreck, but it definitely diversifies the way Wehrmacht can play. Instead of 'hard-hitting' You actually now have the ability to cripple your opponents.

If you like we can always just take the Faust criticals away so you can bounce shrecks off Pershing Hulls and see no damage done like it was before the change.

It's really not a big deal. These are quite small changes that you can adapt to. The change has yet to present proof that we've broken the effectiveness of Wehrmacht.

[Illegal_Carrot]

You guys do know that the Volksgrenadier Panzefaust is pretty powerful these days right?

But it's still not a valid replacement for a Schreck, for a menagerie of reasons.

And if you're going to nerf Grens' AI and AT capabilities, why not reduce their price/their weapons price? If I can only get 50% of a units capabilities, I should not still pay 100% of the costs.
There's was noting wrong and/or OP with double-gunned Grens, they were balanced. So any nerf made should at least be countered with a buff, to make then balanced again.

[Akranadas]

We didn't remove the fact that you can't have Panzershrecks, just that you can only fit one on a squad. It's still there, still does the same damage, expect now; you can't fill your AT role with 1 unit.

[gamesguy2]

My main complaint about taking away dual shreks was there is nothing preventing tanks from circles strafing the pak to death.  One shrek doesn't cut it.    All the other doctrines had something to stop circling strafing with(stickies, button, treadbreaker).

With the new volk mine and the faust buff I'm pretty happy with those changes.  Less reliance on dual shreked grens and giving volks and KCH a ok AT weapon to defend themselves is always a good thing.  

Plus single shreked grens are still deadly.  In my last game my first squad of vet 3 shreked grens killed 5 quads/M8s and a M18 before it had to retreat.

[gamesguy2]

Although I have to say no one, I mean no one, is going to buy the dual LMG tier 2 unlock.

Maybe make it a tier 1 ability?

[Migi2]

The numbers on how effective RRs were vs Shrecks have been run more times than I can remeber on these forums. Every time it has come out that one shreck is just less efefctive than 2 RR.

Zooks have absolutley  0 effect on any medium or heavy tank unless fired from the rear, and very few players let my rangers any where near the ass of their panther/kt/tiger.

1 lmg gives the same +2 to anti infantry that two bars do. I find that I now have at least a chance to fight now rather than have roving double lmg grens ranging every allied infantry unit on the feild with very little allied recourse.

As it was were out mortared range wise, out ranged inaftry wise, and out ATed with double shrecks.  I feel like allies that dont play 30-50 games a week actually stand a chance now.

[EIRRMod]

The change was made, as previously stated, in voice with you Lt Apollo - to stop MU dumping, and severely stacking starting callins.

There are very few units that can MU focus in the way that grenadiers could (basic squad) - and that was in error.

The error has now been rectified, and will remain for a significant time, if not indefinate.

These types of threads do not help revert the changes, more-so the opposite.

[Latios418]

Hi, my name is Ranger Squad. You can spend 260 munitions on me. I'm not much different from Grenadiers, other than the fact that I'm doctrine specific (to the most used US doctrine).

These types of threads do not help revert the changes, more-so the opposite.

So well-thought out arguments and points regarding how the entire playerbase hates a particular change actually lessens the chance of getting the change reverted?

Wow. I have nothing more to say here.