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Author Topic: State of Balance  (Read 55345 times)
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scrapking Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 924


« on: June 23, 2009, 07:12:16 pm »

Without intending insult, just plainspeak, is shit.  I could have said that better, but I think it carries the full effect this way.

I don't want to start another debate about this unit vs. that unit, with various and sundry community know-it-alls quoting coh-stats.

I reference the most obvious thing that frankly matters more than unit v. unit subtleties:

Nobody wants to play Allied.  Many of the few who do, play for the sole reason that it is easier to get a game.  This is the most telling stat of all.  Its also nothing new, I can't remember any time in EiR's history when there were more Allied than Axis players, but it does feel as though it has gotten worse.

Why is this?  Well aside from the "dark side" appeal, and latent Nazi sympathies, I think its that most Axis units are generally perceived as being at least slightly advantaged to their Allied counterparts.  Allied doctrines are generally late bloomers, with the somewhat exception of Elite Infantry (which I noticed much ado on that very topic around here). 

Anyway, my point is that real, accurate or otherwise, there are perceptions about balance or outright "sexiness" of the various factions - and still more about the playstyle or ease of play  - and instead of opining about the cause of it - it might be more effective to simply weigh the effect. 

Make Allied more attractive, and / or Axis less attractive until the numbers come closer to evening out.
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petewinny23 Offline
EIR Regular
Posts: 29


« Reply #1 on: June 23, 2009, 07:25:06 pm »

Good post!

If you want to make the mod in general more attractive to play, not just for people to play allies, you must consider people coming over from vanilla vCOH where they have probably played as Am/CM and are used to winning alot over there with a bit more relative ease.  However when they come and play here for the first time they probably dont have the choice but to play someone from the axis who r at the moment better than the allies but also experienced in the mod.

Result: they lose convincingly a few times either switch sides or stop playing the mod......

possible solution:  Moniter new people and let them play against each other...simple solution....but i gather to time cosuming at the moment to develop with other important issues arousing for the dev teams i.e balance.

Maybe another simple solution could be to give even higher pp points to people who play like ranked people.......(obviously curved a bit more to the higher ranks) and little to no pp to higher ranked players who play low ranked people........just a thought.

I gather there will be strong opposition to those who have spent time building their vetted units!  Smiley
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scrapking Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 924


« Reply #2 on: June 23, 2009, 07:34:25 pm »

I'm not really talking about the advantage system, or the imbalance of new players vs. fully developed companies.  I sort of consider that a right of passage, that even if not thoroughly enjoyable or encouraging - still serves the purpose of acclimating people to a new playstyle.
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gamesguy2 Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2238


« Reply #3 on: June 23, 2009, 07:40:18 pm »

Quote
If you want to make the mod in general more attractive to play, not just for people to play allies, you must consider people coming over from vanilla vCOH where they have probably played as Am/CM and are used to winning alot over there with a bit more relative ease.  However when they come and play here for the first time they probably dont have the choice but to play someone from the axis who r at the moment better than the allies but also experienced in the mod.

Result: they lose convincingly a few times either switch sides or stop playing the mod......

Lol its just the opposite.   People who played the 1v1 ladder in vCoH will know that in the end, the Americans are probably the strongest doctrine in EIR.

However, it also requires a godly amount of micro.  Its much easier to blob up a bunch of grens or spam some support weapons or build a doomfort and win with wehr in EIR.

And this is only the Americans, not the Brits.    When EIRRMOD was talking about this problem, PE, Wehr, and Brits had similar retention rates and number of players, but three times as many Americans quit as compared to everyone else.

It comes down to how US vs Wehr was designed in COH.   Baiting and flanking a MG42 is and always will be more difficult and require more micro than plopping one down and guarding it with another squad of infantry.   One of the most basic tactics for defeating a MG42 is more difficult to do in EIR due to the lack of retreat and reinforce mechanic and the super low pop cost of MGs compared to regular infantry.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 07:42:13 pm by gamesguy2 » Logged
31stPzGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 455


« Reply #4 on: June 23, 2009, 07:53:07 pm »

I remember writing about this issue some time ago and people said I was "theory crafting" and making up imaginary issues.

I like to say "I told you so".

That being said, pertaining to the state of balance, I had a short conversation with someone who used to play EiR back in the old days and he posed an interesting point across.

He mentioned about the tweaking of stats which will cause a whole chain of cause & effect across the entire board and the easiest way to balance things, is to leave it as they are and change the pricing of the items until it is right.

Anyway, my little 'hijack' aside...

Scrapking, your words carry more truth than you think it does.

I gather there will be strong opposition to those who have spent time building their vetted units!  Smiley

Without doubt. This would appear to have become the defacto culture in EiRR.

We need more people like you petewinny23 and/or scrapking to speak out on issues you feel about. There is no point for people like myself who have been lobbying for things since the old camp. Need new blood to convince people otherwise.

possible solution:  Moniter new people and let them play against each other...simple solution....but i gather to time cosuming at the moment to develop with other important issues arousing for the dev teams i.e balance.

I have suggested this before and proposed a working structure for how it can be done. There were genuinely very little interest in helping new players.

The best way to get this done, is to have a pro player team with a newbie player, against another similar team, both players on vent so the pro player can give tips & advice and show the new player the pace & strategy of the game.... which proves very effective in teaching new players rapidly how to play while providing an even and fair battle.

There was of course a "mentorship" program as well, which never amounted to anything. One can only wonder why.

Maybe another simple solution could be to give even higher pp points to people who play like ranked people.......(obviously curved a bit more to the higher ranks) and little to no pp to higher ranked players who play low ranked people........just a thought.

This is currently in place. I commented about it being insufficient though, you could check with the regulars for the precise figures. I don't really remember it.

At the end of the day
The developers have made clear the direction they want to head in as well with this mod. I don't really see a point in "proving" anything at all no matter how true or false it may be.
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Smokaz Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #5 on: June 23, 2009, 08:22:37 pm »

Can some of the Devs or EirrMod post up some stats pertaining to the amount of axis and allied players.. I think there's been more allies lately.

What about just increasing PPs gained for allies for a short period to encourage growth?

Btw, since a lot of people ingame here are fixated on cool units like the KCH and bla blah, I think we are getting a surge of new americans once the american officer is implemented. He's gonna be so PIMP!
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31stPzGren Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 455


« Reply #6 on: June 23, 2009, 08:32:14 pm »

Can some of the Devs or EirrMod post up some stats pertaining to the amount of axis and allied players.. I think there's been more allies lately.

The player preferences & composition changes from timezone to timezone, most distinctively between European & American time. Try coming on at a later time perhaps.
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scrapking Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 924


« Reply #7 on: June 23, 2009, 08:35:03 pm »

Can some of the Devs or EirrMod post up some stats pertaining to the amount of axis and allied players.. I think there's been more allies lately.

What about just increasing PPs gained for allies for a short period to encourage growth?

Btw, since a lot of people ingame here are fixated on cool units like the KCH and bla blah, I think we are getting a surge of new americans once the american officer is implemented. He's gonna be so PIMP!

I'm not sure how you could accurately measure it aside from visibly looking at who is currently online looking for games.  The number of accounts is going to be skewed by people with multiple accounts.  The number of games played is obviously the lowest common denominator.  The number and degree of developed companies might be somewhat indicative, but not absolute.  And even then you still need to consider the number of Allied players who are playing Allies out of convenience, or to accommodate other players.  That cannot be the incentive to play Allies, it will wear thin fast.

But your other comments are sort of what I'm getting at.  What's sexy about Allies now?  Elite Infantry?  Yes, very, but narrow and limited.  Superior Artillery?  After long grinding in a few doctrines, yeah.  The feeling of being the underdog and being challenged?  For very few people this might be incentive.  Getting a game at will?  A great selling point for the impatient or time-restricted.  Am I missing anything?  Anything at all?

Why DO people play Allied?
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Blitzen Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 312


« Reply #8 on: June 23, 2009, 08:45:45 pm »

easy buttons?  Axis has more appeal, more unit types.  Units that are really well known.  Most ppl have heard of tiger, (try your parents and stuff), but who knew about m10?  I was always just dissapointed in the number of units.  Axis have a lot more selection.  I like that dark side comment, I play em cuz they were the good guys!  ( not the nazis... the germans, clear distinction. )
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Piotrskivich Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 542



« Reply #9 on: June 23, 2009, 09:02:02 pm »

I enjoy playing allies because being allies encourages throwing away units, killing tigers  Cool and because I have a better win loss ratio as allies  Wink.
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Pak88mm Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 423


« Reply #10 on: June 23, 2009, 09:04:41 pm »

i play axis because of the sheer amount of choices of units i can play with and plus i love vetting them and keeping them around

i play allies cuz they are just a pure attrition faction with no real care for vet. I love just slamming all my units into axis defenses and knowing my sheer numbers will overwhelm em lol
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Most Hated player in EiR....Pak88Mm
Mukip Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 450



« Reply #11 on: June 23, 2009, 09:06:59 pm »

It's a good question given that the axis side has a wider variety of generally superior units. 

Obviously personal observations:  Axis have an easier time gaining vet leading to more attachment to their companies and an easier time vs less commonly vetted allies.  They have more straightforward, less micro intensive solutions to problems (it is easier to use a shreck than a bazooka, easier to keep a pak alive than a 57mm, mortar is longer ranged etc) and has a wider playerbase with what appears to be many more regular competent axis players than their allied equivalents.  It can be lonely being allied.  It seems mediocre axis win more often than mediocre allies.  I'm obviously going off my biased personal experience, but I tend to notice average allies have negative win/loss ratios where average axis players have positive win/loss ratios. 

I think broadly speaking the game is balanced at higher levels, with some things needing a look at but neither faction being severely disadvantaged.  It just seems like less allies stick with it and break through the early barriers due to recurring frustrating experiences.
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scrapking Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 924


« Reply #12 on: June 23, 2009, 09:09:00 pm »

Mukip, I could not agree with everything you've said more.  Spot on to what I've felt about things for a long time now.  I think its about time we recognize this is a problem and not simply the way things are.
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CommanderHolt Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 600


« Reply #13 on: June 23, 2009, 09:10:21 pm »

The only "easy buttons" the allies have are mostly linked to Elite Infantry. BARs Suppression and Heroic Charge are probably the only thing I can think right now that could be called "easy buttons" that isn't on Rangers, Airborne, and Commandos for the allies.

As always, Axis are "cooler" in general and do have superior out-of-the-box support weapons. They tend to have some sort of Passive "easy button" as well.
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Blitzen Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 312


« Reply #14 on: June 23, 2009, 09:16:06 pm »

allies are good at getting out of trouble, having fast tanks, recovering from suppresion much faster, and having fireup, and things like stickies/bars for when you get rushed.  Axis have to be more cautious, but have more potention to deal uber dmg.  Camo is good to get into trouble, but harder getting out.
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spinn72 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1802



« Reply #15 on: June 23, 2009, 09:17:28 pm »

i find it infinitely easier to start out as axis instead of allies.  Main reasons are:

-Mortar Halftrack or Wher Nebel as a standard weapon (maybe its better if it went to defensive/terror doctrine only).  Even Wher mortar to a point
-Availabilty of crazy AT such as Shrecks, and ninjapaks
-Availability of LMGs and doubleshrecks.  I don't think many people really tried bars a lot and never saw them as useful because in vCoH they cost 40munitions to supress and noone would use it.
-MG42 range and supression  
-More fun to play Axis in vCoH so people would assume the same here.

Allies however are more rewarding and the great thing is you know axis companies are smaller, and generally have lots more blank volks squads and that, and after an amount of time you'll get to notice that.
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Scyn Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1011


« Reply #16 on: June 23, 2009, 09:17:40 pm »

How does one even respond to this...

First off I'd probably start off by saying that no matter what you do.. some people just can't be swayed, they're set in their ways and will always play Axis. The same goes for Allies. Sometimes it's just a natural thing you can't change by trying to make things appealing.

I'm really not sure what the numbers have to do with balance. If you can't get a game as Axis, due to there being too many. Most players know to have a second account readily available to play Allies. Just as well, a lot of people refuse to play the opposite faction. Which again, is not a reflection upon mod design. All factions, and all doctrines are being played, obviously there will be some more than others, but that's neither here nor there in terms of balance unless we hard-cap the number allowed per doctrine/faction.

As for vCoh players transitioning.. you also have to consider that our community's more veteran players play Axis and most newcomers will accrue losses before they start winning. Again, not something we can change. When new players come in playing Axis, they may get teamed with veteran players.. and get wins. Which is highly influential in the longevity of player accounts.
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gamesguy2 Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 2238


« Reply #17 on: June 23, 2009, 09:22:20 pm »

All this talk of supposed allied "easy buttons" from axis only players is hilarious.

Try it, then get back to me.
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CommanderHolt Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 600


« Reply #18 on: June 23, 2009, 09:24:02 pm »

Unless if it Flank speed or the M10, Allies Tanks are generally NOT significantly faster then Axis Tanks (Except of course Tigers and KTs). Also I believe that all recovery from suppression is the same now.

The Wehr in general seems to support a crushingly methodical advance with their superior support weapons backing up their Infantry and Panzers.
« Last Edit: June 23, 2009, 09:26:32 pm by CommanderHolt » Logged
wildsolus Offline
Donator
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Posts: 807


« Reply #19 on: June 23, 2009, 09:24:43 pm »

allies have callis howis and rangers

what more could you want?

go allies!
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