The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[SaintPauli]

The fact of the matter is that it’s impossible as axis to use blitzkrieg, where you break through the lines with tanks due to stickies and buttoning. Therefore the axis tank game has always been long range combat. This requires a combination of range and speed to be able to get the fuck out of Dodge. The Tiger used to be able to supplement durability for speed but that just does not work as well as it used to due to the evolving combat treats. Since the Tiger was designed stickies has gotten longer range and Fireflies + Buttoning were introduced (buttoning uses from Bren Carriers/Ban g Busses or while fired up). This forces the axis tank combat out to even longer distance and places an even higher importance on range and speed.

As long as the P4 outranges the Tiger it will always be more efficient in this new combat environment. Therefore you either have to nerf the range of the P4 or raise the Tiger to the same level as all the other axis medium/heavy  tanks (Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King 45, P4 45).

If you don’t want to give it range with veterancy you could give it decreased moving accuracy with vet and the option to buy a tank commander (+5 range + 10 sight - possibly killable like MG on P4/Sherman). With a small buff like that the tiger will be viable again and still counter able in the exact same way.

And forget about the Tiger Ace. No amount of buffs on a single unit will make up for a T4.
The Tiger – An endangered species…
At the moment there is absolutely no, zero, zip, nought, nothing, zilch, none, nil reason to buy the standard Tiger. The reasons for this are numerous:

1: A greater treat enemy treat – The Tiger used to be feared on the battlefield. The introduction of Brits with their buttoning ability and long range Fireflies makes it hard to get any usage out of the tiger.

2: Giving up other doctrines – At the moment the Tiger is a T3 unit. Not only are you getting a unit that underperforms but  you also have to give up another T3 to get it.   
 
3: Outranged and out gunned – all other axis medium/heavy tanks have longer range than the tiger: Hetzer 50, Panther 47.5, Jagd 45, King tiger 45. Even the P4 and Sherman gets range 45 at V2.

4: P4 with Heat Rounds – As it is now a vetted P4 with Heat Rounds out ranges and does almost the same damage as a Tiger. It also has a top MG, moves 25% faster has half the moving accuracy penalty and can take the same amount of handheld AT damage due to skirts/vet. Why the fuck would anyone, even a fanboy like me, use a Tiger instead???

Proposal: Move the Tiger to T2 (or make The tiger and other special unit a free unlock at level X). Give the Tiger decreased moving accuracy with vet and the option to buy a tank commander (+5 range + 10 sight - Killable like MG on P4/Sherman if posible). With a small buff like that the tiger will be viable again and still counter able in the exact same way.


Note: some of the things things said here also goes for the Pershin who could use similar buffs (I do however consider the Pershin a way better tank in the current environment due to the higher speed and field repairs that gives you 300 extra HP each use and instant repairs critical)

[gamesguy2]

It has 45 range with improved barrels.   There is a reason heavy tanks dont get + range with vet, because a tiger one shotting infantry squads at 50 range is retarded.

The easy solution to tiger's current problem is simply allowing it to buy skirts for some amount of munitions, 125 seems reasonable.

[Lt_Apollo]

are skirts even capatable visualy with the tiger? also maybe add the option to get a MG or tank commander witch could increase sight/range.

[crimsonrabbit]

are skirts even capatable visualy with the tiger? also maybe add the option to get a MG or tank commander witch could increase sight/range.

Screw the MG, tank commander is much better.

[SaintPauli]

Its retarded to have an ability that gives you what others (Hetzer,Panther,Jagd,KT) gets for free…It was that way with the dual Schreks in the Tank Hunter doctrine when wehr could 2 shrecks for free.

It’s also retarded to give the Tiger skirts. It’s just going to make it a like a P4. Actually removing the +5 range on Shermans/P4s at V2 and giving it to the Tiger/Pershin alone would help.    

[SaintPauli]

Beside you can’t give the Tiger skirts that affect AT guns and handheld AT differently (The other skirted units gets a different armor type). You could give it a general buff though – like 25% less penetration and received dam. Another option would be to change it to panther armor. 
Note: I’m not saying any of this is a good idea.

[Bubz]

Well, with the introduction of new factions there are obviously more counters for the same units, same for like every single unit of americans/wehrmacht. Firefly is a hard counter to tigers, nothing you can do about it, it's like saying mg42 suppresses riflemen, since that unit is specifically designed to destroy heavy tanks.
Didn't the tiger as well as other heavy tanks get a price decrease recently?

[NightRain]

No buffs required for tiger

Price decrease is in place a better suggestion than anything else. Messing with the stats is not good idea, generally Tiger is a Infantry Support tank pretty much like StuG Assault Gun and Sturm Howizer 42. Should be used like that too.

Only Price decrease in order

[Tymathee]

i've seen plenty of tigers and kt's in my games, i dunno who you're playing. It's just that defensive and luftwaffe are the "noob" docs and a lot of people play those. Those that do play blitz usually have a tiger and those who can get far enough in terror get kt's.

Tigers are   not on the field alot because the mechanic was made that way. The way they did availability and pp's is so you pick and choose and play safe with the tiger instead of like back in the day bringing tigers out too earlier or unsupported or two tiger companies, one was a "throw away" tiger and the other the vet one you hold onto.

[Schwert]

generally Tiger is a Infantry Support tank pretty much like StuG Assault Gun and Sturm Howizer 42. Should be used like that too.

Okay now that made me a little bit  
Infantry support tank? Aha, of course! I don't know if I should laugh or flame you. Thats like saying... *rantstart* Firefly is infantry support antivehicle tank...cromwell is infantry support, howitzers, shermans, oh well lets say, basicly everything is infantry support and should be used that way.

Grenadiers are infantry support infantry! Use them that way! I wonder if anything can be considered to be NOT-infantry-support *rantend*
What happened here? Why does someone compare a TIGER to a STuG? Doesn't it still have great allround capabilities?
Tiger is a battletank.

[SaintPauli]

Messing with the stats is not good idea

I’m not talking about stat changes. I’m talking about vet changes (like the speed buff on the king)

i've seen plenty of tigers and kt's in my games

I’m talking only about the standard Tiger. The king is really good with the speed buff from vet 2 and 3 (it has the same speed as a normal tiger at vet 3).

And if you are seeing lots of standard tigers then you are noob stomping because NONE of the good players use it (only exception is born4me).

[Mysthalin]

1. Units should not only become powerful after they gain veterancy. Actualy, vet should only be nice, but not fix stupid. Only minor buffs, not 25 percent increases in damage and penetration, or 33 percent increases in health, or anything silly like that.

2. The tiger's main problem lies in the fact that it's turret rotation is beyond terrible, and it's targetting priorities table is made of fail. It's the number one tank that needs it's targetting priorities set to 50 versus everything, so that it fires EXACTLY at what you order it to fire at.

[Smokaz]

it could do with the turret speed moved to vet 1, that has to be like one of the first things that a veteran crew learns, to operate their vehicle more efficiently

[SaintPauli]

1. Units should not only become powerful after they gain veterancy. Actualy, vet should only be nice, but not fix stupid.

Im saying it need the SAME vet as the P4.

Besides there is already implemented lots of “fix stupid” from veterancy because units were not performing well enough. Here are a few examples:
StickyBomb Range +10
American/commando mortar Range +10
Officer armor/MP40
King tiger speed
Wehr flak 88 buff to equal PE

[Mysthalin]

The tiger would benefit more from teh same health/damage percental bonuses than the P4 would.

Sticky bomb range : it puts it in line with a faust, and it doesn't actualy fix stupid, but punish the stupid of the enemy. IMO, it could be removed and a damage increase given instead would be fun.

It only affects the standard free-fire, not barrage for the mortars.

Officer MP40 is a debuff, IMO.

King Tiger speed buffs don't really make it capable of outrunning a flank-speed cromwell... so yeah.

88s are decrewed 20 times a game, so their vet doesn't matter.

[Baine]

Officer MP40 is a debuff, IMO.

Yes, as much as i like the decoration effect of the Mp40, I rather have a gun like the luger, that can one shot units.

[SaintPauli]

The tiger would benefit more from teh same health/damage percental bonuses than the P4 would.

Yes of cause is should. It cost more. You get 2 P4s for the price of a tiger and their combined bonus will be greater since their combined health is better.

Don’t give me some bullshit about all units should gain the same amount of HP form vet. PanzerJaeger made that error when he made the veterancy in the first place and even he admitted the error. It just hasn’t been fixed yet.

King Tiger speed buffs don't really make it capable of outrunning a flank-speed cromwell... so yeah.
 

LOL yeah. Your absolutely right. Going from speed 3 to 4 doesn’t mean a thing. Its worthless…  

[Guderian]

Pleas come with proposals for standholders in their place

[AlcapwneD]

Kinda agree with saint on this, tigers should be tier two, because the other tier 3's for blitz are WAY better than the tiger.

[EliteGren]

Well as the result the other blitz T3s are getting nerfed.
Repair specialisation is gone already.