The Tiger – An endangered species…

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[TheIcelandicManiac]

Pretty sure I live on the West side of the Atlantic. 

Well atleast we confirmed its a smurf.

[dailydose]

Well atleast we confirmed its a smurf.

.... I just clicked on his profile, and it says UK. Haha. Whoever you think I am, they must have been terrible players. 

[TheIcelandicManiac]

Oh crap, i tough Myst got banned.

herp de derp

[Hicks58]

Unless smurfs are now capable of creating their own unique voice, I'm pretty sure this guy is legit.

I have to wonder though, were you observing EiRR for a long time before you brought it, or have you been looking at the game information for only as long as you've had it?

[dailydose]

What are the Values for Recoiless Riffles?

(sorry for asking so much, but don;t have corsix on this, only on other thingy)

Sorry, spent all my energy on this mega-post so I can't help you at the moment--you should try to get Corsix yourself, but from what I remember, the recoilless rifles were crap against Tiger front.

------

Unless smurfs are now capable of creating their own unique voice, I'm pretty sure this guy is legit.

I have to wonder though, were you observing EiRR for a long time before you brought it, or have you been looking at the game information for only as long as you've had it?

I've looked at EiRR for as long as I've had it--so maybe a week. Why?

----
On a related note, I was fiddling around with Corsix, looking up various pen. value for different ATGs and tanks, and I've come to a conclusion that the Tiger armor bump does three things at the same time.

Catagory 1. The pen reduction allows the Tiger to blast past weaker AT pieces. For example, at short ranges, the american 57mm's pen % goes down from approx. 30% to 23%, meaning that approx. 1/4 shots will pen instead of 1//3. For normal Jumbo Shermans in short range, it goes down fron .242 to .1936. That means the Tiger will be able to push through weaker guns with more confidence.

The one caveat is that the American 57mm ATG does 1/2 damage when it bounces, so that it does 75 dmg every bounce--that is almost an equivalent of a penned Sherman hit every time it fires. This seems pretty high in-regards to the German ATGs.  The PE's Marder also does 150 dmg also but has .35 deflect and short range. The Pak 38 has 1/2 deflect damage, but it only has 115 dmg. On the surface, it seems that the American ATG is much stronger compared to its German counterparts, especially since the range is 60 for all guns. I personally feel that the % on these tanks can be lowered a bit--the reason is the next catgory.

Cat 2. Against somewhat dangerous targets like Upgunned Shermans and Jumbos, the Tiger has some protection, but these are still dangerous for him, especially at short to mid-ranges--Upgunned HVAP Shermans would have .4802 frontal at short from .6002, .4392 at mid from .549, and 0.3996 at long from .4995, while upgunned jumbos would have .36 pen at short range from .45. The one saving grace for the relatively small reductions in this catagory is that when round are reflected, Sherman-based tanks do only about .15-.25 of their damage, which is pretty small--it averages to around 13-25 damage, so you have chances to win big damage reduction-wise, if you are lucky.

Cat 3. Against hard-counters to TK like Fireflies, the Tiger will be utterly demolished due to it's lower health. Hellcats would do .75 instead of .94, Firefly with HQ rounds will now do .935 instead of 1.16 at long ranges and pen all when closer, and 17 pounder ATG will pen it at all ranges. In essence, the counters for a TK will continue to be very effective counters for the new Tiger.

What puzzled me the most was the 17 pounder ATG. The 17 pounder does 150 dmg, cost the same as German ATGs, but has insanely high pen on heavy armor that makes every other ATGs weep. It pens the frontal armor of all German tanks at all ranges. If I thought the American ATG was a bit unbalanced, I sort of flipped with the 17 pounders. Why are the Allied ATGs so much superior, when the prices/pop costs are the sames and the range is 60 for all guns? Marder's Sherman pen is .4942 at long range, and .4667 for Churchils. For Pak 38, the long-range pen comes to .7058 for the Sherman and .4485 for Churchills. For Pak 38, I don't think the camouflage is worth the difference in performance, and the Marder III is terrible because it has gimped pen as well as 40 range.

For those wanting the Pershing vs Tiger balance specifically, the HVAP Pershing now has .7870 pen at long ranges from 0.9837. Vanilla Pershings pen .36 at long range, from .45. Pershing with AP will pen at all ranges, Vanilla Super Pershings do .4 long-range from .5, and Super Pershing with HVAP will pen .8784 from long raange, from 1.098. So, even with the armor upgrade, HVAP still allows Pershings to rape Tigers in short order stat-wise. Tiger with HEAT is at .7 pen at long range, although the Tiger also has a lower accuracy at that range so it is at a double disadvantage.
------

Personally, I am quite surprised that Hicks' relatively crude suggestion worked out relatively well in regards to the numbers involved. The Tiger will be able to crush through light AT defences, bouncing rounds left and right, although I feel the numbers can be a bit lower, especially on the Allied ATGs. Against tank destroyers, the Tiger stands a better chance although they are still dangerous. Against heavy tank counters, Tigers are going to be messed up. Pershings in all forms with HVAPS will probably be its nemesis in the heavy-tank catagory.

Special area of concern for me was Allied ATG and Pershing's performance against the Tiger.

I think the flat pen reduction is still a solid solution, but some figures may have to be fiddled with to make it work. If the devs go for the pen reduction route for the Tiger, the one issue I can foresee is the 2nd catagory tanks' performance relative to the KT. Depending on how the across-the-board reduction actually plays out, majority of the fine-tuning of reduction will probably happen here--but because of how the KT is set up at the moment, affecting values to balance catagory 2 Allied tanks against Tigers may mess up their balance in-regards to the KT, and may make the KT unbalanced--who knows until there is a test?  

[tank130]

dailydose

Stop with the walls of text......lol

[Tymathee]

well damn dude...my eyes screamed at me around Cat-2 and said no mas

[Hicks58]

What puzzled me the most was the 17 pounder ATG. The 17 pounder does 150 dmg, cost the same as German ATGs, but has insanely high pen on heavy armor that makes every other ATGs weep. It pens the frontal armor of all German tanks at all ranges. If I thought the American ATG was a bit unbalanced, I sort of flipped with the 17 pounders. Why are the Allied ATGs so much superior, when the prices/pop costs are the sames and the range is 60 for all guns? Marder's Sherman pen is .4942 at long range, and .4667 for Churchils. For Pak 38, the long-range pen comes to .7058 for the Sherman and .4485 for Churchills. For Pak 38, I don't think the camouflage is worth the difference in performance, and the Marder III is terrible because it has gimped pen as well as 40 range.

This is where cross faction balance comes into account. The Pak38 deals less damage than the 57mm but it actually has a higher DPS. In most common engagements the Pak38 will fire it's first round which surprises it's target, then gets a second round off before it has finished reversing out of range. The 57mm will usually only get a single round off. Camo can be used all throughout the battle whilst AP rounds are limited use and cost extra on the weapon (They are also lost upon weapon decrew). Not only do the Pak38 and 57mm deal their damage in different styles, the Pak38 is also against for the most part thinner skinned targets. Against Ami/Brit targets, using a high damage/pen weapon would be for the most part less effective as you tend to cut through most Allied armour anyhow. Allies on the other hand have to face a lot of well armoured targets.

As for the 17 having batshit good penetration? It's simple: Narrow firing arc, slow as piss, expensive as hell with purchased HVAP rounds and is only available to RSE.

Oh, and the Marder has 60 range.

Welcome to the RGD's Daily... Sifting through them is extremely entertaining, but many people don't appreciate full blown essays on the forums regarding them.

[dailydose]

Haha, I was shifting through the RGDs in between breaks while I was writing my history essay--I guess I'm still in exposition mode.

I now see your point about the American ATGs--I guess was pulling my hair out at nothing. Looks like I still have a lot to learn--and keep myself from getting too far out to lala-land from the excitement of RGDs.  

RSE must have some solid AT capacity since their 17 pounders are doc 1 unlock. Guess panzers will just have to go around them. Although I can't help but be a little jealous at that pen rate, which you get vanilla without HVAP.

I'm still in a state of minor awe about how you basically nailed the number needed on the Tiger pen reduction in one go. I wonder if I'll be up to that level someday.

Was there anything wrong with my Pershing vs Tiger analysis, or did I manage to get that somewhat correct at least?

[Mysthalin]

Super Pershings do not actually exist in EiRR. They may be in RGDs, but they've never really made an appearance. Even if they did - balancing stuff against them is silly - once they do make an appearance, it'd be the SP that would need to be balanced against everything else.

A pak38 WITHOUT cloak shots has a raw DPS (penetration and everything related to this excluded) that is 1% higher than a 57mm WITH AP rounds, on top of acquiring it's targets faster due to a better horizontal gun speed traverse.

The 17 pdr is, from a realistic perspective - a pile of utter wank. It costs loads, moves ridiculously slowly, has an obscenely slow fire rate, features a very poor firing cone, and does only moderate damage. The only reason they are of any use in a British build is because baring fireflies you have nothing that can reliably penetrate high-armour enemy tanks.

If you want to see a heavy AT gun that actually owns - look no further than the pak40. Seriously, just look the stats of that mofo up.

[dailydose]

I didn't know a Super Pershing was one of the nonexistent units like the Maus. It would be fun to have, though.

Focusing just on the HVAP Pershing vs the newly-proposed Tiger, I looked at Corsix again, and I recalculated that the HVAP Pershing would have a long range pen rate of 0.7870, firing at 1.0125 accuracy (.75 base *1.35 target mult), while the HEAT Tiger would have a pen rate of 0.7, firing at 0.5346 accuracy (.495 base*1.08 target mult). Am I correct in surmising that the HVAP Pershing will still beat the Tiger 1-on-1 even with the pen reduction?

That should be ideal, in my opinion, because the HVAP Pershing should be compensated by the fact that it loses a lot of its AI capacity to gain its deadly AT attack, while the Tiger doesn't lose anything for HEAT.

[chefarzt]

If u crunsh too much Numbers ull be shitting question marks!

[Mysthalin]

The regular tiger has a 0.75 base long range accuracy... With the 1.08 Acc vs the Pershing it ends up being 0.81 accuracy vs the Persh.

With HEAT rounds at long range it would have 0.672 pen vs the Persh, though it's not really a noticeable difference from 0.7

[dailydose]

I could have sworn Corsix showed a long range accuracy base of .495 base for the "88mm_tiger_heat.RGD." Currently working now so I'll check again in an hour+1/2.

By the way, at what distances does the system apply specific range categories? I inferred that:

0m < Short < 10m
10 < Med < 20
20 < Long < 40
40 < Distant

[DarkSoldierX]

I could have sworn Corsix showed a long range accuracy base of .495 base for the "88mm_tiger_heat.RGD." Currently working now so I'll check again in an hour+1/2.

By the way, at what distances does the system apply specific range categories? I inferred that:

0m < Short < 10m
10 < Med < 20
20 < Long < 40
40 < Distant

Its gun specific. Check your RGDs again.

[Groundfire]

[dailydose]

I checked again, and there are 3 different Tiger guns in Corsix:
"88mm tiger gun"
"88mm tiger gun he"
"88mm tiger gun heat"

"Tiger gun" and "Tiger gun he" are identical and deals 135 dmg while having .75 long range accuracy and 1 mid+short range.

"Tiger gun heat" deals 171.875 dmg, while having a .495 long range accuracy, .66 mid range accuracy and 1 short range.

I heard that the doctrines work by switching the guns used on vehicles, so I assumed "tiger gun heat" was the gun that a Tiger is equipped with when you purchase the HEAT doctrine. If so, Corsix is showing that taking HEAT reduces accuracy of a Tiger significantly.

Does the HEAT Tiger use "tiger gun he" instead? If so, where can I find the damage increase being applied for HEAT? 

[RikiRude]

one might be tiger ace? but im just pulling that out of my ass.

[Hicks58]

The HEAT round Tiger gun is currently unused, pretty sure the same applies for the HE gun too.

They are relics of a by-gone era. You'll find a few of them if you look around. This is why you have to check the EBPS file for the unit in question for it's hard point and it's doctrine abilities.

Sometimes the doctrine ability won't provide the stat buff shown on the doctrine, THAT is when it usually uses a separate gun entity such as Pershing have a separate HVAP and standard gun. However, HEAT rounds has a flat ability buff if you go check the file.

Any doctrine buffs will be found under a unit's ability section in it's EBPS file.

[TheIcelandicManiac]

What unit is the tiger Ace anyways?

There is the Blitz_Tiger_Ace.RGD
Tiger_Ace.RGD (think its the King Tiger)
Tiger_Ace_henschel.rgd (also think is the KT)
and the Tiger_Tankace.rgd

really bloddy confusing.