[US] [Inf] Tank Reapers

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[Mysthalin]

I'm sorry and maybe it is just me, but I just find it ridiculous that an ATG shell and a barrage from 2 ranger squads, all to the front of a Vet 3 Panzer 3 should kill it from full health. Tank Reapers should make AT weapons formidable, but please don't make it so it almost completely changes game mechanics.

It is indeed just you.

Skirts in EiR grant 0.75 recieved damage and 0.75 recieved penetration from all weapons.

150 base damage on a 57 mm. 112.5 vs a skirted P4.
90 base damage on a bazooka vs a skirted P4.

If all shots hit and penetrated(way unlikely) a skirted vet-less P4 without tank reapers.
112.5 + 360 = 472.5 damage.

With tank reapers :
472.5 * 1.2 = 567 damage.

So, if ALL of the shots would hit and all of them would penetrate (point blank rear armor showing of the P4), then the vet-less skirted P4 would be put just outside 5 hp. It would not even have the chance of dieing.


On the more possible occasion that the P4 is showing it's front and is at medium range of all 4 bazookas and AT gun(tank reapers included) :
90*1.25*0.94 percent chance that the ATG will, hit. Definite hit at 105.75 percent.
60*1.25 percent chance that each of the bazookas will hit. 75 percent chance to hit with each bazooka, realisticaly - 3 bazookas will hit the P4.

Penetration :
The 57 mm shell will have a 0.755*0.75*0.9*1.33 = 0.67 percent to penetrate. 67 percent chance to do 135 damage, 33 percent do do 67.5 damage.

The 3 hitting bazooka shells will have a 0.337*1.33 = 0.448 chance to penetrate. On average, 1 bazooka will penetrate, 1 will not, the third one is a gamble.
So, it will be 108 damage + 16.2 damage (bounced shot dmg) + 45/55 percent chance to deal, respectively, 108 and 16.2 damage.

Best case scenario of both 57 shell and all 3 bazooka shells penetrating :
135+3*108 = 459 damage.

Good case scenario of 57 shell and 2 bazookas penetrating :
135 + 2*108 + 16.2 = 367.2 damage.

Worse case scenario of 57 shell and 1 bazooka penetrating :
135 + 108 + 2*16.2 = 275.4 damage

Worst case scenario of nothing penetrating :
67.5 + 3*16.2 = 116.1 damage

If you have neither skirts nor TR and all shots hit and penetrate :
150 damage + 4 *120 = 150 + 480 = 630 damage.


So what is OP, the T4 ability that, with luck, allows you to have the chance of nearly killing a skirted P4, or the non-doctrinal ability to buy skirts at 80(?) mu that allows you to survive through 350 + 660 = 990 MP, 110+160 = 270 MU and 16 popcap worth of pure AT even with a T4 if luck favors the T4 user completely?
Honestly, if you guys want Tank Reapers removed, please accept the removal of sideskirts from the game as well.

[Tymathee]

:clap: myst wit da math.

and while we're at it, lets list a few "OP" axis Tier 4's that are implemented.

Fatherland Defense (All units gain 20% HP)

so...axis units already have higher hit points than their allied counter parts and then we give them more? Wonderful. Add that to FTFL and you have units that can assault an hmg and barely get tickled.

HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)

okay, so they get 25% more damage and penetration which btw is just silly, basically it means every shot from an axis tank will penetrate allied armor and a panther can defeat a pershing 1v1.

Heavy Support (HMGs, mortars, snipers, ATGs have 25% more range, health & sight)

ooh...so they've already got more range and fire power add this to

Advanced munitions (Hmgs & Mortars deal 20% more damage and suppression)

and you've got seriously over powered support weapons.

I can go on and on. Point blank, all sides have powerful Tier 4's, just cuz one can well not even nullify axis armor but make you guys go and say "oh no...I have to actually be careful with my tanks now" instead of doing like a lot of you do and just rush on in with day 2-3 p4's and just wreck havoc doesnt mean things should change, means you should change tactics.

[Tymathee]

There are currently no allied doctrines that are dedicated anti vehicle killers. If anything, thats the major weakness, so now, one out of the 6 allied docs can reliably kill tanks and you whine about it yet you have the most powerful anti tank weapons? Give me a break. Stop all that happy bullshit already.

Are you serious?

All Airborne is good for is taking out vehicles. I'm not saying that its overpowered, but to say that there aren't any Allied Doctrines that are dedicated vehicle killers is a fallacy.

As an Axis player, my only problem with the Tank Reapers doctrine is that it has a greater quantity and magnitude of bonuses than the majority of other T4's. You may say that HEAT rounds and German Steel affects EVERY tank, compared to Tank Reapers only affecting ATGs, stickies, and bazookas. However, consider that the maximum amount of tanks that an Axis player can realistically field is around 4 or 5 tanks (3-4 panzers and maybe a panther). I personally don't know the cost for giving bazookas to riflemen, but I do know that it isn't uncommon to see 6-8 squads of bazooka riflemen, with 3-4 AT guns, and maybe 4 rangers. Again, I don't know the specifics in a proper Tank Reaper company. Add to that the ability to pick of bazookas and ATGs and it becomes clear that the amount of units that are benefiting from Tank Reapers is substantial.

So I say tweak the numbers on Tank Reapers, so it is more in line with the other T4's and takes away the arcadey feeling that I get. I'm sorry and maybe it is just me, but I just find it ridiculous that an ATG shell and a barrage from 2 ranger squads, all to the front of a Vet 3 Panzer 3 should kill it from full health. Tank Reapers should make AT weapons formidable, but please don't make it so it almost completely changes game mechanics.

I said "dedicated" just because something is "good" at taking out something doesn't mean that they're dedicated tank killers.

and tank reapers is way in line with other t4's read them. Heck, Tank reapers is not even close to the most powerful t4.

Here are some axis ones that are more powerful (wont list allied cuz this is an obvious allies vs axis go ahead and choose some allied onces if you like i dont care)

Heavy Support (HMGs, mortars, snipers, ATGs have 25% more range, health & sight)
HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)
Conviction (Blitzkrieg lasts twice as long, no negative modifiers, grants 2 extra uses)
Camouflage Equipment (All non-heroic units in friendly territory remain camouflaged until they move or open fire, 1 use, max 2)
Fortress Europe (Flak88 & Flakvierling receive 20% more damage, 25% faster turn rate and 15% sight increase, flak36 can relocate)
Crete Veterans (FJs and Luftwaffe infantry gain 25% less received suppression, 20% more accuracy and 15% more damage)
Spirit of the Edelweiss (Grants Lieutenant like bonuses and Heroic Charge to FJ) - seriously?
Opening Barrage (When not defending, at start of game fires extensive barrage into the center of the map with fire effects lasting
Panzer Zeal (For every vehicle above 5 pop on the field your vehicles receive 15% less received damage and 15% increased accuracy, max 60%) (laughably overpowered)

[EliteGren]

Tym heavy support got nerfed to shit since then, the list is kinda outdated.

[Piotrskivich]

What makes you think opening barrage is good? only like every 1/3 game you get to attack.

Personally tier4's are best if they help your men in some way so they can get vet easier, killing enemies doesn't matter because once you have tier 4 you have level 8 and winning doesn't mean anything.

[Guderian]

Well call it screening barrage and it gives you a call in ability.
You can put this anywhere around the map and a barrage will open up.

Ill thought idea but i think that we really should improved it.

[Tymathee]

What makes you think opening barrage is good? only like every 1/3 game you get to attack.

Personally tier4's are best if they help your men in some way so they can get vet easier, killing enemies doesn't matter because once you have tier 4 you have level 8 and winning doesn't mean anything.

it will be epic when we start the atk/def dude. I'm not talking about now, I'm thinking future. When scorched earth is attacking and they have that t4, they can wipe out a call in if thats any good

[Mgallun74]

nerf TR anything below 20 per on any of the buffs would make it useless imho..

[Mysthalin]

What makes you think opening barrage is good? only like every 1/3 game you get to attack.

Personally tier4's are best if they help your men in some way so they can get vet easier, killing enemies doesn't matter because once you have tier 4 you have level 8 and winning doesn't mean anything.

it will be epic when we start the atk/def dude. I'm not talking about now, I'm thinking future. When scorched earth is attacking and they have that t4, they can wipe out a call in if thats any good

You play vs a PE player that you heard may be SE in the late war and are defending - you don't go to the middle till the timer runs out, heh.

[Rayze]

Are you serious?

All Airborne is good for is taking out vehicles. I'm not saying that its overpowered, but to say that there aren't any Allied Doctrines that are dedicated vehicle killers is a fallacy.

As an Axis player, my only problem with the Tank Reapers doctrine is that it has a greater quantity and magnitude of bonuses than the majority of other T4's. You may say that HEAT rounds and German Steel affects EVERY tank, compared to Tank Reapers only affecting ATGs, stickies, and bazookas. However, consider that the maximum amount of tanks that an Axis player can realistically field is around 4 or 5 tanks (3-4 panzers and maybe a panther). I personally don't know the cost for giving bazookas to riflemen, but I do know that it isn't uncommon to see 6-8 squads of bazooka riflemen, with 3-4 AT guns, and maybe 4 rangers. Again, I don't know the specifics in a proper Tank Reaper company. Add to that the ability to pick of bazookas and ATGs and it becomes clear that the amount of units that are benefiting from Tank Reapers is substantial.

So I say tweak the numbers on Tank Reapers, so it is more in line with the other T4's and takes away the arcadey feeling that I get. I'm sorry and maybe it is just me, but I just find it ridiculous that an ATG shell and a barrage from 2 ranger squads, all to the front of a Vet 3 Panzer 3 should kill it from full health. Tank Reapers should make AT weapons formidable, but please don't make it so it almost completely changes game mechanics.

Change the game mechanics? that is very very far fetched for something that is in all honesty (though the axis wont admit) evening the playing field, the good players that know how to use there axis units will know how to counter any of our AT because not many of them rush there soddin tanks into AT guns and ranger squads etc... why do people cry when something finaly brings the playing field on a reasonable level (yes you can try nick picking saying Airborne is GREAT against tanks you obviously havnt played them quite that well.

Airbornes best AT and i wont deniy it there pritty good is the RR the only other "unique" is there bombing run and the fact there 57s can be airdropped, theres bollox all realy different there so were this epic rawr rawr crap come from is behond me.

So i will agree this is the ONE doctrine ability that gives us a good and effective AT role if it gets nerfed from its current state then there is no point in the ability at all... it only affects ATguns, zooks, stickies ALL of these can be easy counterd by something called RANGE AT guns i see 24/7 like the pak can be counterd easy enough by re-routeing your attacking force duhhhhhhhhhh not infront of the soddin AT gun stickies have a very short throwing distance, you see it all the time enemy vehicle set in reverse and starts sipping there tea as the infantry failingly trys to keep up to throw there sticky fail.

And of course our all epic Zooks he shoots he scores! or not it missed by miles ... oh wait no course it didnt miss it didnt make the range =D

There is really no room to argue here the buff the ability gives is usefull ONLY if used correctly.

[salan]

tank reapers will be getting audited very soon, working on something else atm though.

[Duckordie]

wow, I relay kicked my self on the nuts there

By the way, the inf doctrine is more about Riflemen, nothing about the rangers, exept get 4+ more rangers, eaven tho its not in yet. So the T4 is what bosts the rangers, there should be more too them.

And Tank Reapers, if it get changed, 100p thnx 

[Mgallun74]

tank reapers will be getting audited very soon, working on something else atm though.

omg, what do you plan on doing, i just spent 100pp last night on it.  If your gonna nerf too much might as well just go to carbines.

[Rayze]

tank reapers will be getting audited very soon, working on something else atm though.

I be can sence Axis crying prevailed.

[Tymathee]

tank reapers will be getting audited very soon, working on something else atm though.

audit? why...there's nothing wrong with it. I just played a game, zooks still miss. The only reason it might seem "op" is because axis players bullrush their amor, and think you can't do a nything to them and then when you're c lose and you penetrate from the front, by that time its almost over. I still got my rifles and rangers raped by hmgs, mortars and fj's (which their docs need a debuff, they're way too good) matter of fact, of the 14 rifles i had, i only got out with 3 and 2 of them were my starting call in rifles.

TR as is now isn't a end all beat all. It'd probably still have issues vs tigers and king tigers. I'd be interested in what you want to "audit" though

[Freek]

I can't believe this BS.  A T4 that makes my AT actually *kill* what it's supposed to kill is being NERFED AGAIN?

FFS, you're gonna nerf the only good inf t4.  God, why do I even play as allies.

[pernik]

They're doing quite the same with AB xD

[Atlanton]

Change the game mechanics? that is very very far fetched for something that is in all honesty (though the axis wont admit) evening the playing field, the good players that know how to use there axis units will know how to counter any of our AT because not many of them rush there soddin tanks into AT guns and ranger squads etc... why do people cry when something finaly brings the playing field on a reasonable level

Oh, but it does change game mechanics. It felt more like C&C Generals when my vet 3 panzer (which wasn't "bumrushing" an AT as everyone likes to say) was insta-nuked from front armor. Granted I could have used my panzer more efficiently, by not putting it in a position to get snagged on a hedgerow. Regardless, the reason I say that it changes game mechanics is because it nearly nullifies armor and received penetration reductions, while still adding a substantial amount of damage and accuracy. Even with the ambush ability, two panzershreck stormtroopers can't hope to do as well against the front armor of a vet 3 sherman as those ranger squads did against the front armor of a vet 3 panzer.

(yes you can try nick picking saying Airborne is GREAT against tanks you obviously havnt played them quite that well. Airbornes best AT and i wont deniy it there pritty good is the RR the only other "unique" is there bombing run and the fact there 57s can be airdropped, theres bollox all realy different there so were this epic rawr rawr crap come from is behond me.

I fail to see how I'm nitpicking, when the majority of Airborne abilities give a bonus to Airborne infantry and the effectiveness of their recoiless rifles. It's a shame that I have no sodding idea what the rest of your paragraph said, because it looks like it would be epic.

So i will agree this is the ONE doctrine ability that gives us a good and effective AT role if it gets nerfed from its current state then there is no point in the ability at all... it only affects ATguns, zooks, stickies ALL of these can be easy counterd by something called RANGE AT guns i see 24/7 like the pak can be counterd easy enough by re-routeing your attacking force duhhhhhhhhhh not infront of the soddin AT gun stickies have a very short throwing distance, you see it all the time enemy vehicle set in reverse and starts sipping there tea as the infantry failingly trys to keep up to throw there sticky fail.

And of course our all epic Zooks he shoots he scores! or not it missed by miles ... oh wait no course it didnt miss it didnt make the range =D

There is really no room to argue here the buff the ability gives is usefull ONLY if used correctly.

And we come back to the lovely recurring trend. I said this before in the thread, but I guess you didn't catch it. Here it is again:

A game mechanic can still be overpowered regardless of its vulnerability to a natural counter.

Let me give you an exaggerated example of this phenomenon. Let's say that in an alternative version of EIRR, double shrecked grenadiers would instantly kill all armor, except for the pershing. THAT is overpowered, but it is still possible for the Axis players to say, "What do you mean its overpowered? What are you doing rushing your sherman into anti-tank infantry? Use mortars and anti-infantry infantry."

All of the Allies think that

I said "dedicated" just because something is "good" at taking out something doesn't mean that they're dedicated tank killers.

and tank reapers is way in line with other t4's read them. Heck, Tank reapers is not even close to the most powerful t4.

Here are some axis ones that are more powerful (wont list allied cuz this is an obvious allies vs axis go ahead and choose some allied onces if you like i dont care)

Heavy Support (HMGs, mortars, snipers, ATGs have 25% more range, health & sight)
HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration)
Conviction (Blitzkrieg lasts twice as long, no negative modifiers, grants 2 extra uses)
Camouflage Equipment (All non-heroic units in friendly territory remain camouflaged until they move or open fire, 1 use, max 2)
Fortress Europe (Flak88 & Flakvierling receive 20% more damage, 25% faster turn rate and 15% sight increase, flak36 can relocate)
Crete Veterans (FJs and Luftwaffe infantry gain 25% less received suppression, 20% more accuracy and 15% more damage)
Spirit of the Edelweiss (Grants Lieutenant like bonuses and Heroic Charge to FJ) - seriously?
Opening Barrage (When not defending, at start of game fires extensive barrage into the center of the map with fire effects lasting
Panzer Zeal (For every vehicle above 5 pop on the field your vehicles receive 15% less received damage and 15% increased accuracy, max 60%) (laughably overpowered)

While there are some abilities in that list that should be tweaked (Panzer Zeal), I fail to see how Tank Reapers is inferior to all of them.

Tank Reapers: 20% more dmg, 33% penetration, 25% more accuracy for Bazookas, ATGs, and Stickies.

HEAT Rounds (All tanks deal 25% more damage, 15% more penetration) - I love to see the comparison between HEAT rounds and Tank Reapers. First off, the actual bonuses for Tank Reapers is substantially more than HEAT rounds. You have much more penetration, a little less damage, and the added bonus of accuracy to weapons that can be recrewed, reused, and healed at a triage center, indefinitely. HEAT rounds is a very effective T4, but I fail to see how it is superior to Tank Reapers.

Crete Veterans (FJs and Luftwaffe infantry gain 25% less received suppression, 20% more accuracy and 15% more damage) - Some of the most fragile infantry in the game get an suppression, accuracy, and damage bonus. Very effective T4, but once again, it isn't better than Tank Reapers.
 
Fortress Europe (Flak88 & Flakvierling receive 20% more damage, 25% faster turn rate and 15% sight increase, flak36 can relocate) - For something that costs a ton, is easily decrewed, and can only be used 2-3 times in a game, this T4 is not overpowered. I haven't seen it in action, so I can't say how effective it is. But it looks ridiculously situational.

So in general, I find it difficult to argue that Tank Reapers is inferior to most Axis T4 doctrines.

It is indeed just you.

Skirts in EiR grant 0.75 received damage and 0.75 received penetration from all weapons.... Lots of math omitted

In that case, I really wish I saved the replay. Because it was indeed two ATG shots or another barrage from the two ranger squads, then I would have a little less of a problem with it.

[Mysthalin]

In that case, I really wish I saved the replay. Because it was indeed two ATG shots or another barrage from the two ranger squads, then I would have a little less of a problem with it.

It's just not possible that a vet 3 skirted P4 died to 2 penetrating ATG shots and 4 penetrating bazooka shots with TR.

(90*4+2*150)*1.2*0.75*0.85*0.9 = 454.41 Damage

The skirts alone would have likely(not always) saved the P4, and the vet damage reductions make it happen for sure.

Even with the ambush ability, two panzershreck stormtroopers can't hope to do as well against the front armor of a vet 3 sherman as those ranger squads did against the front armor of a vet 3 panzer.

I honestly should of stopped reading right after I read this part, but meh.

*sigh*

Table of weapon effectiveness vs their targets with all the included buffs and debuffs.

////////////////      TR Bazooka      WM Panzershreck
Damage                  82.62                    91.8
Acc. at M range        75%                     75%
Penetration              35.6%                  87.8%

You were saying something about the bazooka being horribly OP with tank reapers?

[Mgallun74]

They're doing quite the same with AB xD

US AB? RRs too strong for the axis too now?