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[acker]

Geez, Precision Strike killed your Calli?

It was sitting in spawn.  We spotted it with a sniper, waited till wild was busy microing something else, and elitegren dropped rocket arty on it.

...That just happen to have an average win:loss ratio of over 2:!, of course*. And, quite honestly, it does the exact same thing deliberate newbstomping does in terms of welcoming new players.

And it just happens to be very, very profitable. Especially in terms of vet, which people absolutely require in evenly-skilled matches.



*This makes sense, birds of a feather flock together. In more ways than one.

It goes both ways though.  When I first started my wehr company, I was intentionally going and looking for the worst teammate possible to play with.

After I accumulated some vet.  I would get games where my ally is useless because its his first day playing EIR or whatever.  Which is fine except my opponents would make it a point to try and gang up on and hunt down every single unit with vet I have. 

Which just makes me not want to keep playing with newbies.   I don't care about win/loss, but hopeless games where you know the otherside will try and kill all your vet is just not fun.

...Which is a self-propagating cycle. Want to know how I feel game after game? But why the hell would I deliberately stack? Over the course of EIR, I've only heard one or two people actually confess to deliberate newb stomping, most of the people I consider stackers simply "play with their friends". But it DOES THE EXACT SAME THING. EIR has had this problem since time immemorial. And that's a big problem for obvious reasons.

Mentoring movements has happened quite a few times over the course of EIR, but it has to done again and again and again...simply because the root problem has never been satisfactorily addressed.


Incidentally, I don't really buy the "play with friends" routine for some people. As previously stated, back when 1v1s counted, quite a few players would almost-exclusively play 1v1s simply to crush the other player...and gain vets from it. It was such a big problem that 1v1s were removed from the game until and up to the present day. Some vestiges can be still seen nowadays in 2v2s.

[Rocksitter]

 One thing I know is that alot of people have both axis and allies account so if you see a game that has 3 bad or new players on one side and 3 really good players on the other and if you are one of the good players just try to mix up the teams to make them more even and a much more competitive game.

 I have never seen this happen and think it might help with the issue that some have..

 

[AmPM]

lol, Acker, thats not why 1v1's were removed.

They were removed because you and a buddy would alternate companies in, and then lose them to your friend. That way you both gain a ton of vet over a very short time.

Skunker and I did it to prove how bad it was to have 1v1s in, mmm....2 vet 3 tigers after 1 game.

[acker]

One thing I know is that alot of people have both axis and allies account so if you see a game that has 3 bad or new players on one side and 3 really good players on the other and if you are one of the good players just try to mix up the teams to make them more even and a much more competitive game.

 I have never seen this happen and think it might help with the issue that some have..

 

You never see it (well, it happens sometimes) because it's unproductive. What the hell is the incentive to do that? Then you'll just get rolled over with the newbs you tried to play with, as Gamesguy mentioned. And, as a bonus, you'll probably end up getting some of your vet wiped out.

It's completely understandable, but also a problem.

lol, Acker, thats not why 1v1's were removed.

They were removed because you and a buddy would alternate companies in, and then lose them to your friend. That way you both gain a ton of vet over a very short time.

Skunker and I did it to prove how bad it was to have 1v1s in, mmm....2 vet 3 tigers after 1 game.

...which, of course, explains your 70-80% win ratio back then, if you were simply alternating companies.

[AmPM]

Actually no, that was due to things like repair spamming and so on. My tank micro has always been better than my infantry micro.

Now I have get my infantry micro down. Still getting better at it.

We had our accounts deleted for the 1v1 abuse btw. Also got 1v1s removed so people like Apex couldn't do anymore 1v1 "noob training" sessions.

We also finally got some new good players, so its not just people like you anymore.

[pqumsieh]

Gamesguy made a good point, stackers usually vet hunt players who actually try and join a stacked game against them. I have had htis happen to me a couple of times as well, I don't mind losing something if its in combat, but when you chase somethign to spawn in an attempt to kill it, thats just lame.

I'd like to see more of the pros join new players in order to give them a better gaming experience and increase the amount of people who stick with EIR. No one likes a noobstomp, people will leave if it continues.

PQ

[Rocksitter]

"You never see it (well, it happens sometimes) because it's unproductive. What the hell is the incentive to do that? Then you'll just get rolled over with the newbs you tried to play with, as Gamesguy mentioned. And, as a bonus, you'll probably end up getting some of your vet wiped out."

 So how are newbs gona stomp you if you mix the games up?

so instead of Great player great player good player VS newb player newb player and newb player you get something like great player newb player newb player VS great player good player newb...

 its real easy in 4v4 to lets see

 newb
 newb
 newb
 ok player
  VS
great player
great player
great player
good player

 you would get

Great player
newb
good player
ok player
 VS
Great player
Great player
newb
newb

 So I dont see how what you posted fits with what Iam pointing out .

 Its called sportsmanship.

[EliteGren]

I really love even high level vs high level games, but they are way too rare for me.
Looking forward for tourney updates.

[Rocksitter]

 people will leave no people are leaving.

 I talked to a few new guys one of witch i told about this game and really they got turned off by bad attitudes ,stackers and poor sportsmanship  some people will  not put up with this type of thing others could give a shit ..

[LeTon]

As I've witnessed alot of banter about this in the chatroom...I suppose I could chip in.

I don't think you're ever going to make everyone happy...There will never be a perfectly balanced game...and as long as someone loses vet, or loses multiple times in a row, there will always be a bit of discouragement.

From personal experience I would agree with gamesguy. He even played with me a few times when I started out against potentially bad odds...

When it comes to me playing with "randoms", as long as whoever has a microphone and is apt to use it...I'm fine playing with them. I agree with the friends thing in that, you've probably seen Atlanton and myself play together alot...but we are corpmates from a game called EvE online...thus we tend to stick together. I also find playing with someone who's style I can compliment, and who I work well with, is much more enjoyable than someone who is running about doing their own thing.

Sometimes there just isn't anyone to play...and you end up being bored enough to go into the stomp...It sucks for both sides. I'm sure even the good players hate having to wait for a game...

I think that making the system better is probably more difficult than it sounds....however I agree that bigger incentives for playing against the stackers may be in order...just my 2 cents anyway.

And on a side note...I don't generally vet hunt...unless it's DuckOfDoom... 

[pqumsieh]

I think an incentive system wont work. Its too easily abused by smurfers in one way or another. People just need to follow an honor system, I realize people play with friends and thats fine. When you get a chance though, try and play with less experienced players. I know its not always practicle, Im just saying when it is try. We've all played a stacked game at one point or another, which is fine, but its nice when we're on teh shorter end of the stick once in a while too.

[Freek]

Heh, so many times I'll log in to see 3 axis vs 2 allied newbs... [and occasionally vice versa, but methinks most new guys go allied for whatever reason.]

I've had such difficulty finding a good game, that I've given up on that.  I'll often log in, create a 2v2, and type:
"Battle#x 2v2 I'll play WITH/AGAINST ANY1 WHO JOINS!"
Close my eyes, tell myself that losing my vet is worth the meager xp (because, I swear every fricken 'pro' axis dude is making a 'newb' account, thus depriving me of xp/pp's [and killing vet, at little risk to them]).

[Schultz]

*This makes sense, birds of a feather flock together. In more ways than one.

Heh this is the only true thing one can say :p

Pqumsieh's actually had a great idea. How about an honor/reputation system to compliment the ones in place. Of course it will be evident in the launcher for all to see and im thinking yes it will promote a better idea of "good".
A system who can calculate who you play against and with and give a rank. 1st degree stackers and then Competent/ bold players who take upon every challenge.
Additional bonuses can be given or even cool avatars
A vet player surviving games against odds/ teaching noobs will much better qualify for that than a stacker.
This can help lowering the amount of significance a 10-0 against new people that show up to the launcher.
Cause once again its all about the launcher stats and the silly leaderboard. Remove it and see how what happens.
Its all a bit silly. We need more systems to actually incite the feeling of a war, not some personal stat ego crap.

[31stPzGren]

Pqumsieh's actually had a great idea. How about an honor/reputation system to compliment the ones in place. Of course it will be evident in the launcher for all to see and im thinking yes it will promote a better idea of "good".

I've a better idea

Allow everyone, who has played with each other, to comment about each other post game. Each player will receive only 1 comment and can be updated each time they've played a game with each other.

Obviously some player's profile will be flooded with stuff like "noob basher" "stacker" etc etc etc. And people will take note not to play with them. If they're labeled "noob basher" "stacker" by obvious deviants, no one will take them seriously.

[CafeMilani]

and smurfing becomes even more popular..i like that idea =)

[Snuggles]

After reading this thread i think it would be helpful if i chimed in.

I am a new player, I just started playing 1 or 2 weeks ago.  Before EIR my experience with COH was good.  I beat the campaign and i played online as the wehr(I hated allies in regular COH because Wehr were more versatile) to a decent 1 on 1 record and 2 on 2 record.  Now i was no PRO or anything.  I had a good grasp of the game though.  I went looking for something more interesting when i came back to play COH again, and found EIR.

When I found EIR I found a helpful person in vent and every one seemed cool.  I joined the Allies side because i was told how stacked the Axis side was and wanted to help the balance out to help out the community.  So i went British engineers.  My name in game is Leodun.  You may have played with me already.  I am no pro, but i am no complete noob.  My win ratio is horrible though.  

I have 5 wins atm and i think 16 losses.  2 of those wins are with wildsolus in 3v3 i believe.  Those games may have been stacked in our favor, but i was still really new in those first few games. 1 win was in a 2v2 against similarly skilled players.  2 wins i forget : /.

My 16 losses are mostly against stacked players.  I join these stacked games for a few reasons.  First I find that it takes forever to even find a game to play.  I am not going to wait 30mins - hour just for a game, nonetheless probably a stacked game.  I join these games also because I also feel for the axis side(most of em   ).  They have to wait forever for games, so i try and be a sport and join the games so they have people to play against.

Although I have encountered quite a few cowardly axis players who only join stacked games in their favor to Vet against newbs.

Speaking of vet, I have yet to get anything to vet 2.  I have to use my full battalion to put up a fight, and against higher level people they just get stomped.  I could level some people up, but that would involve me retreating way early on every fight, and that would not help the team.

When it comes to doctrines, i am very saddened to see that i have wasted 125 pp on stuff i thought was in game, but is not yet in game.  Some of my doctrines would really help me against the axis, I hear axis have their doctrines mostly completed T_T.

I hope my 2 cents gives you an insight on maybe what the noob/new people think when they start playing EIR.

[VictorTarget]

That's an interesting though.

And Snuggles, I think I may have played with you as well sometimes, but I'm not sure.  Either way, you bring up some interesting points...

[Lemures]

Me and Argosian will usually play against most and it's mostly stacked..as in they have a LOT of vet and plenty of abilities we do not.

The training Point advantages are nice but as Snuggles has pointed out we must use everything, usually down to the last man to stand a chance at winning. Maybe we shouldn't try to win but then what would be the point in playing?

A higher survival chance for units without any vet status would make it easier for new players to get into EiR and easier for them to slowly build up a Battalion. I know something like this is in place but I have yet to see any of my units reach Vet 2. Even my Officers which will be kept back will catch P4 shots and be instagibbed...

Also, I play Royal Engineers and most of the Doctrine is not in game, which is unsettling especially if you hadn't realised beforehand. Like most new players wouldn't.

Oh and vet hunting, yes we do it though it's rare we will 'chase' men off the field we will always chase tanks because of how high the chance is they will hide+heal. Though I love people who cry..."you vet hunted my tank which was going off map" ...when it was clearly trying to go repair.

As a final note, I think PE get too many Storms with their reinforcements. My last game a 3v3 against all PE..they had as many Storms as I'd expect to go up against 3 Wehr.

[thaelmann]

tbh, 5:16 seemes like rather good stats for someone who has just joined the mod. almost everyone loses his firt 10+ games, don't they?

anyway, it's not always stack when there's 2 or 3 good players up agains some who are not that good yet. and it will always happen as long as there's not enough players online (ans especially not enough new players) to let you actually choose which game to join.

right now, there's just a little to much whining about so called stacked games going on. i just had a game when 2 players left their own game just because pak joined. no offense, but that's just ridiculous.

even if you lose, you can still benefit from playing each and every game. you'll always gain pp, xp and vet. just be carefull not to let your units die and retreat them in time.

what may help, though i don't see it coming, is arranging the teams after all of the players joined in order to make them more or less even. but that means that each and every player would have to have the flexibility to join on either his axis or his allies account.

why not get on vent and discuss the teams before starting the game? i'd say let's give it a try.

[pqumsieh]

People are complaining about stacking because it is a big deal. It decreases the chance that new players will stay around long enough to become active members in the community. Additionally, it ruins overall gameplay for many players.

One suggestion that might help elevate the problem would be to increase the re-roll chance on lost units for players who help noobs. I believe 30% is the max re-roll chance you can get, it might be in proper order to increase it to 50, 60, or even 70% in order to compensate/protect those players who stick their next out to help newer players. Can this be abused my smurfers? Yes, of course it can. However, that argument can only go so far. I think the potential for abuse does not outway the potential good that may come from incorperating something like this.

It all goes back to the honor system, we just have to trust players not to abuse any system we incorperate. On that note, players should not have a bunch of profiles. Or at the very least, if they do have many profiles, they should use their commonly known username and not some stupid name like "Iliketolickballs" or "IAmADumbassWhoJustThrowsShitTogetherToM akeAFukedUpNameBecauseIHaveNoLife" (not to point at anyone specially, this does get pretty stupid pretty fast) This just makes it easier to ensure players don't abuse any system we put in place to help elevate problems that occur.

What do you guys think?

PQ