4 Man BAR Squad

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[AmPM]

I am playing Tank Hunters....they are not better than anything else lol.

People play Wehr because it plays the most similarly to vCoH. BAR SF > any other infantry held weapon for AI duty.

What Americans do well, is force the enemy into a situation that's not advantageous to them.

[Mysthalin]

Americans rely solely on overruning the enemy with something at any given point in the game.
Be it tanks, or infantry, or just plain arty if there's just too much anti-everything fielded by the enemy - there is no point making a combined arms push with americans. It's either an elite inf blob charge, or a tank blob charge to break through. Americans are capable of doing combined arms pushes, but it's just not cost effective to attempt that - mainly due to the soft-skins(riflemen) dieing or getting suppressed almost instantly, or the one sherman "supporting" the push getting raped by the always-penetrating pak. It's just a lot easier to go "yoh dude, calling out two sherms, you do the same" and over-run the enemy lines with armor spam.

Now, that's the whole reason why americans aren't fun. Spamming is great, but it gets just... tedious over time. You spam, spam spam, and finaly decide - naw, fuck this shit, it's not fun at all, then move over to wehrmacht, PE or brits.

Something does indeed have to be done to make US more interesting. A higher HP, more accurate 4-man BAR squad could do the deal, a new "elite rifleman" all together - maybe a 4-5 man squad with improved rifles(maybe the T4 from infantry ones - just by default), and 65(5)-80(4) HP per man and sprint? A helicopter? An actualy useful .30 cal and mortar? Anything will do, really - but americans are, as they say in french - LE BORING!

[DuckOfDoom]

Spam is a stupid reason to reject the US, everyone fucking spams something, be it grens, shermans, p4s or rifles. A company is built around a core of units that are designed to be supported by other units - hence the spam, since most good companies will maintain a similar composition of units on the field most of the time with minor variations.

[AmPM]

Now we can get down to the real meat of it since we can agree that the American Faction isn't grossly imbalanced (balance meaning that in the same variety of situations, it will on average win as much as any other faction given the same amount of doctrine/advantages and good company composition), its just downright dull.

What do Americans not have? You have elite infantry (Available as much as any other minus KCH which are cross doctrinal), you have specialized arty (Howi, Calli) and you have basically equal tanks (no Panther equivalent, not a balance issue due to costs) until the Pershing (doctrinal) which in said doctrine, is better than a Panther or Tiger.

You can already do Mechanized Infantry (M3 with men, or Brens through reinforcement, similar to Wehr), and your support weapons are good at what they do (zomg, vet 1 ally mortar is the devil). The 57 can pick and choose when to apply its penetration bonus and damage bonus.

You have 4 light vehicles (m3 .50 being awesome), m3, m3 quad, t17, m8; you have 2 dedicated vehicle killing armor units (m10 and m18) one of which has some sort of mine and can cloak (like a Hetzer, but with a turret), you have a highly adaptable medium tank, and a decent anti-infantry vehicle which can gain Heavy Crush.

American Infantry however is limited to a single cross doctrinal choice, the Riflemans! Nothing inherently wrong with it either. Ok, so how do we make this unit fun to use? Things that do not rely on Doctrines and do not become OP with doctrine abilities (zomg, 4 BAR squad for 4 pop and low cost sitting in a house with Bipods for 25% increase in accuracy and more DPS than a dual LMG squad). A unit that does not change the entire game dynamic by giving Rifles 4 zooks and an atom bomb.

Again, I suggest upgrades. They allow people to adjust an entire company if they want to pay for it to be something new. Each can be tweaked as needed, they can also disallow other upgrades to prevent hideous combos, and instead of a new unit with a limited availability that's really just eyecandy (and reduces the normal rifle availability, which any new rifle unit should) you can alter them depending on who you are playing with and against.

[Tymathee]

I'm so with you on this. Creating new units wont help but creating new weapons for us to use that will make things a lot better. Give me option to buy satchels, flamethrowers etc on my rifles. Maybe an extra double bar upgrade.

I'm not directly proposing flames on rifles for you people that just like to rifle, just throwing stuff out there and syaing the first thing that comes to my head.

they said variety is the spice of life, this also includes video games. More options, more fun. Which is why Fallout 3 is so awesome.

[jackmccrack]

Maybe an upgrade that will let us buy BARs individually, with up to four allowed?

[DasNoob]

Would probably have to let 2x LMG or Shrek again too.

[jackmccrack]

O rly? Hmmm....


Which do we hate more....double equipped Grenadiers or Riflemen....

[Glaze]

Definently those double equipped folk!  They would make short work out of a lot of my stuff on my American account, and they make my Tank Busters with the Panzer Elite jealous! xD

[AmPM]

I want double equipped Volks with MP40's, firing them akimbo!

[Tymathee]

Would probably have to let 2x LMG or Shrek again too.

wouldn't mind that, especailly if I can double equip my rifles with bazookas.

So you can have it so you can have 4 bars or two zooks or 2 bars and 1 zook. I think that'd make the 2x lmgs and zooks more "fair" i guess.

Thjen again I can foresee a problem that the PE would want their double zooks for their TB's and then we might have a spiral the boys at rifles would want their's doubled up, brens doubled up, rifle nades doubled up....so never mind.

[Demon767]

exactly PE will be stuffed if any of that is implemented.

[salan]

(and reduces the normal rifle availability, which any new rifle unit should)

should assault grens and kch reduce the base infantry of the axis troops then?

interesting arguments though.

[jackmccrack]

Again, I suggest upgrades. They allow people to adjust an entire company if they want to pay for it to be something new. Each can be tweaked as needed, they can also disallow other upgrades to prevent hideous combos, and instead of a new unit with a limited availability that's really just eyecandy (and reduces the normal rifle availability, which any new rifle unit should) you can alter them depending on who you are playing with and against.

4 man Stickie squad with elite armor! 3 man nade squad for 100mp!

[Sach]

part of the problem with Amis is survivability and vetting up.

Which would you rather vet up, a bunch of grens P4s and panther or rifles sherman and croc?

Only units which are enjoyable to vet up on the amis are elites and pershing/calli.

[Tymathee]

part of the problem with Amis is survivability and vetting up.

Which would you rather vet up, a bunch of grens P4s and panther or rifles sherman and croc?

Only units which are enjoyable to vet up on the amis are elites and pershing/calli.

Rifles are the shit when they hit vet 3. Extendo sticky range, more damage, more accuracy, Give that sucker a BAR and watch him rape! Put him behind Green Cover and you can't hit him except with maybe a mortar thats about it. The thing with rifles is you kinda want some of them to be fodder, so you can pick stuff up and so you can use them to scout if you have no jeeps or to puposely take a shot to flush out stuff.

[Schultz]

Thompson for rifles, like mp40 on volks will actually help.
You'd have rifles with bars, zooks and thompson making them a bit more versatile.

Then maybe mix upgrades in the following way.

Airborne with bars, assault airbornes (taking from the campaign).
I propose taking away fireup from these units - replacing it with another ability, maybe passive cloak in cover or medkit for example. Blobbing like crazy and pressing fire up on better equipped elite infantry will be unbalanced and blob - boring. We dont win easy win buttons, but things that entice more tactical play through allowing more options.

We can even have rangers with bars, again the same way as airborne without fire up.
What im really saying is mixing up the available upgrades and messing with abilities, i dont really know what weapons are available in coh that are not included in the game, but if we could add some more thats all it takes.

Just a couple of ideas..

[Bubz]

Good ideas, but still if your rifles die in two mortars/random tank gun hits there nothing a tesla gun/uberkannon can do. The real weakness of rifles is that once they're on the field and exposed to the lightest fire, or some lucky indirect hits they're gone, plus without the mighty medikit that saved many grenadiers asses it's very hard to be cost effective and kill as much as you payed.

[AmPM]

They are no more delicate than Volks or PE...

[Schultz]

Good ideas, but still if your rifles die in two mortars/random tank gun hits there nothing a tesla gun/uberkannon can do. The real weakness of rifles is that once they're on the field and exposed to the lightest fire, or some lucky indirect hits they're gone, plus without the mighty medikit that saved many grenadiers asses it's very hard to be cost effective and kill as much as you payed.

Thats the thing tho, 4 men squad vs 6. If you buff them too much you get to extreme situations. And the blobbing becomes even more evident and prevailing.
One of the reasons people prefer axis troops i think, small squads give better impressions, as to hey i have 2 stormie squads fragile unique and low on men, i have to super micro them. Whereas i have 12 riflemen, meat ready to throw in the grinder.

Which leads to relic bad design philosophy. You have to consider that. Imagine rifles with 5 men. Airborne and rangers on 4. The blobbing feeling is insta gone. The uniqueness fills in. My troops dont suck anymore, theyre not blobbing material. They have cool abilities that can kick the axis ass anytime, other than go go power rangers fire up 18 men together..
Ill use my rangers with bars behind heavy cover to skirmish, ill use the tompsons to protect my support teams from enemy assaults. Ill use my zooks for light armor rush..

Consider how retarded and without plan pe were implemented, small units/ low health pathetic pgs.