[US] Allied Grit buff

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[Groundfire]

Hello,
So, ive been going around doing a little research, and id like to open up a fourm on Infantry Doctrine's T3, allied grit. To be quite frank, it needs a buff. I understand that the devs are trying to keep health buffs in line according to tier, (15%s for T3, 20% for T4) but due to Allied Grit only having a health buff, it falls out of line of other doctrine abilities with health buffs. Other Health buff doctrine choices either...

A.) Effect more than one unit type (which are stronger units to begin with)
B.) Have some other unit buff along side the health buff.

Allied grit, for a T3, falls into neither of the above categories.

On top of this, due to the health buff being a precentage, the Rifle squads that benefit from the ability receive less overall HP than any other unit that receives a health buff.

Lets be honest, in a pesistance mod, Rifles are utter crap. They get ANNIALATED if an axis STuH sneezes in the wrong direction, and the one buff in the one doctrine capable of bringing Riflemen up to par to normal axis troops, and health buff axis troops is too damn small.

Comparatively, the units in the game with similar HP as a Rifleman are gonna have some modification to the damage they take (soldier/elite/heroic armor), and all the other units have Higher HP in their vanilla state than Riflemen do when they have Allied Grit.

Allied Grit needs a buff. 15% is too small, you dont even notice a difference in the Riflemen survivability when it's applied. T3s are not supposed to be some passive tiny buff. Riflemen Survivability should be intregral in an Infantry company. It needs to be 20%. It should be 25%, but even ill admit that would make it a no brainer T3, and it shouldnt be that.

Below are the HP layouts of each factions MBL troops that get Health buffs, for your own comparison. (Notice how a 20% allied grit only gives 3 more HP per Rifle Man?)

Allied Grit (Infantry T3)

Riflemen (Infantry armor) (190 MP)
55 HP per man vanilla
63.25 HP per man with 15% allied grit (T3 doctrine choice)
66 HP per man with 20% allied grit (Purposed change)

British Grit (Commando T4)

Tommies (Soldier armor) (220 MP, )
65 HP per man vanilla
81.25 per man with 25% British Grit (T4 doctrine choice with other buffs added on)

Doctrine's Fatherland defence (Defensive T4) is a whole other monster because all Units in the battalion gain 20% Health, so that includes grens, support teams, i think tanks, but for simplicity's sake, im just gonna do the main line units.

Volksgrenediers (Infantry armor) (185 MP)
60 HP per man vanilla
72 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense

Grenediers (Infantry armor) (240 MP)
80 HP per man
96 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense

Kurts Finest (Luft T3, 15% HP plus other buffs)

Fallschirmjagers (Soldier armor) (250 MP)
60 HP per man vanilla
69 HP per man with 15% Kurts finest

I dont think it's too much to ask for. Riflemen need to be more usefull, and this is the way to do it.
Better riflemen survivablility means Less Rangerspam/Airbourne spam btw.

Thanks, and discuss.

[LuAn]

Things you should add to this comparison to evalute the real potential/effect of those doctrine unlocks:
1. The amount of men in a squad and a total health gain per squad
2. The overall supply for the units affected by the buffs

[CafeMilani]

should stay as it is imo.

[Groundfire]

Things you should add to this comparison to evalute the real potential/effect of those doctrine unlocks:
1. The amount of men in a squad and a total health gain per squad
2. The overall supply for the units affected by the buffs

1. Naw, not really. Add it up yourself, b/c its not irrelevant for this discussion of riflemen survivability.

More squad memebers, means overall HP is sliced up more, meaning each squad member has less. They get critted easier, and the squad loses effectiveness faster, thus decreasing survivability of squad.

Grenedier squad is more survivable than a Rifleman squad.

2. You still get more Mainline Infantry with all other armies and doctrines than you get with Infantry doctrine Rifles.
Now because Airbourne has "Airbourne Riflemen" Infantry Doctrine has the smallest selection and in reserve amount of troops in the mod.

Because they are not survivable enough, you need 14 rifles in reserve to even stand a chance, and even then, its not enough.

this is why players focus on Rangers/Airbourne, etc.

[CafeMilani]

Things you should add to this comparison to evalute the real potential/effect of those doctrine unlocks:
1. The amount of men in a squad and a total health gain per squad
2. The overall supply for the units affected by the buffs

Because they are not survivable enough, you need 14 rifles in reserve to even stand a chance, and even then, its not enough.

this is why players focus on Rangers/Airbourne, etc.

no, because of lack of micro skill

[Groundfire]

why do you think the rifles die so easily?

[CafeMilani]

why do you think they have only 55 hp? right, because they'd be uber if they had more.

[Draken]

[CafeMilani]

emo

[Groundfire]

Honestly aloha, your views dont really hold sway, as i will now point out like everyone else has over and over again, you are too biased to give an accurate balance opinion on an allied unit.

High health Riflemen become OP when you have BARs, nades, and stickies on every squad, like you do in vCoH. In EiRR, a riflesquad with 66 HP per man would be no more uber than a volks grenedier squad with a 6th man..

[Draken]

[BigDick]

u forgot blitz T3 battle hardened afaik 15% health buff


british grit is very strong even for a T4 you just have to rely more on tommies than on commandos

[LuAn]

Ok heres the full number workup
If you wanna compare the doctrine unlocks look at the whole, entire thing and dont ignore certain facts:

Allied Grit (Infantry T3)
Riflemen gain 15% Health(Affects: Riflemen)

Riflemen (Infantry armor) (190 MP)
55 HP per man vanilla
63.25 HP per man with 15% allied grit (T3 doctrine choice)
8.25 HP Increase * 6 = 49,5 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 14/6


Kurts Finest (Luft T3)
Fallschirmjager gain 15% Health bonus, 10% accuracy bonus(Affects: Fallschirmjagers, Fallschirmjager Tankbuster(T3), Fallschirmjager Veterans(T3)

Fallschirmjagers/FJTB/FJVT (Soldier armor) (250 MP) / (250 MP 110 Mun) / (250 MP 50 Mun)
60 HP per man vanilla
69 HP per man with 15% Kurts finest
9 HP Increase * 4 = 36 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 4/2 (+ 4/2 FJTB) (+ 2/1 FJVT)


British Grit (Commando T4)
All Basic Infantry gain 25% extra Health, 15% reduced suppression(Affects: Tommy Infantry Section, Recon Section, Sappers)

Tommy/Recon Section (Soldier armor) (255 MP) / (210 MP 35 Mun)
65 HP per man vanilla
81.25 per man with 25% British Grit
16.25 HP Increase * 6 = 81.25 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 12/6 + 3/2

Sappers (Soldier Armor) (200 MP)
60 HP per man vanilla
75 HP per man with 25% British Grit
15 HP Increase * 4 = 60 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 6/3


Doctrine's Fatherland defence (Defensive T4)
All units gain 20% HP(Affects: Pioneers, Volksgrenadiers, Grenadiers, Knights Cross Holders)

Pioneers (Infantry armor) (110 MP)
70 HP per man vanilla
84 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense
14 HP Increase * 2 = 28 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 6/4

Volksgrenadiers (Infantry armor) (185 MP)
60 HP per man vanilla
72 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense
12 HP Increase * 5 = 60 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 8/6

Grenadiers (Infantry armor) (240 MP)
80 HP per man
96 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense
16 HP Increase * 4 = 64 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 8/6

Knights Cross Holders (Heroic armor) (320 MP 110 Mun)
90 HP per man
108 HP per man with 20% Fatherland Defense
18 HP Increase * 3 = 54 HP Increase per Squad with a Supply of 4/2




Now thats a almost full number workup.(merged fallschirmjager and infantry sections)
And if i have a closer look a the two T3 Unlocks they are pretty balanced numberwise.

[LuAn]

u forgot blitz T3 battle hardened afaik 15% health buff


british grit is very strong even for a T4 you just have to rely more on tommies than on commandos

Wehrmacht Blitzkrieg T3:
Battle Hardened:
Infantry have 15% reduced incomming accuracy.

[Groundfire]

oy...

OK, apart from pioneers and falls, Riflemen have the least gained HP out of all the units you listed,

and on top of that, the other T3 health buff has an accuracy buff tied to it for the best ambushing troops in the game, and you call that an even comparable doctrine choice?

Kurts Finest > Allied grit, even if you get half the amount of falls. They will kill twice as much.

Also, again, you putting in the reserve/supply numbers does not change the fact that Allied grit is a crap T3, thats not comparable with others in it's class, and that the axis armys have more troops in reserve, per army than inf. doctrine with it's 20~ rifles. ( and who the fuck goes over 14 to begin with anyways?)

[BigDick]

ah ok i forgot didnt played fail wehrmacht since a while

15% reduced incomming accuracy is afaik more worse than 15% health buff

since tank splash ignores accuracy and there are dmg modifiers when something is calculated as a hit (like 0.75 dmg) in this case its just like 3/4 of 15% health buff

[wildsolus]

according to the thread, you are still banned from this forum bigdick.

[LuAn]

oy...

OK, apart from pioneers and falls, Riflemen have the least gained HP out of all the units you listed,

Well pioneers have low health to begin but you do have to realize that the other two unlocks are T4, which is a totally different league and are kinda hard to compare to lower tiers.

and on top of that, the other T3 health buff has an accuracy buff tied to it for the best ambushing troops in the game, and you call that an even comparable doctrine choice?

Kurts Finest > Allied grit, even if you get half the amount of falls. They will kill twice as much.

Well fallschirmjagers are the only units i know of that come with the ambush ability, so they excel at their job "ambushing" enemy units, but whilst doing so, they are very susceptible to Grenades.
If they arent in cover or used defensivly they arent that much of a killing machine and bar suppression fire deals with them pretty good.
Unfortunately FJ dont have a hold fire ability while in ambush, so they sometimes reveal themselves prematurely allowing you to react before any harm is done.
And the maximum amount of Falls affected by this T3 would be 8/2 because you can only pick one additional T3.

Also, again, you putting in the reserve/supply numbers does not change the fact that Allied grit is a crap T3, thats not comparable with others in it's class, and that the axis armys have more troops in reserve, per army than inf. doctrine with it's 20~ rifles. ( and who the fuck goes over 14 to begin with anyways?)

Oke let me explain it to you a bit further:
Riflemen:
49,5 HP Increase per Squad * (14+6) = 693 + 297

Fallschirmjager:
36 HP Increase per Squad * (4+2) or (8+4) = 144 + 70 or 288 + 144

This is the potential influence those two T3 unlocks can have on your entire battalion not considering the usual occurence of the units which have to be factored in.


In my opinion Allied Grit is easily compareable to other T3, BigDick gave us a great example:
Wehrmacht Blitzkrieg T3:
Battle Hardened:
Infantry have 15% reduced incomming accuracy.

Same percentage, totally different effect, now is this T3 better or worse than Allied Grit? Yes/No? Why?

Im not quite sure what you mean but:
America: Riflemen + Engineers = 30 possible maximum squads = 150 Men Total
Wehrmacht: Pioneers + Volksgrenadiers + Grenadiers = 34 possible maximum squads =  146 Men Total

Thats not considering the cost of the squads.


Oh one more thing i came across:
14 + 6 Rifle * 185 MP
= 2660+1140 MP + 6 PP = Total of 120 Men

8 + 6 Volks * 185 MP + 4 Grenadiers * 240 MP + 2 Pioneers * 110 MP
= 1480 + 1110 MP + 6 PP + 960 MP + 220 MP = 2660+1110 MP + 6 PP = Total of 70 + 16 + 4 = Total of 90 Men

So for the same price (30mp less) Wehrmacht can have the same amount of Squads with 30 less men total, not considering the fighting capabilities.

and that the axis armys have more troops in reserve, per army than inf. doctrine with it's 20~ rifles.

Im completly lost on that statement.


And on a side note: I prefer low-health-more-men squads over a high-hp-few-men squads any day, because that minor health difference doesnt change much, but in the end every man counts 

[Groundfire]

Well its a good thing that I dont have to convince you, Ucky.

This is not a question of how many men are capable of being fielded in an allied/axis army, but why a 15% health buff does absolutely nothing to improve a riflesquads survivability, while other similar doctrine choices give more buffs, effect more units, while effecting stronger units, with more HP, and better armor types.

I dont need a tutorial on how falls work, a 15% reduced incomming accuracy buff does not equate to a 15% Health buff, and pios/engies are not front line troops, they do not recieve the buffs in this scope, so stop derailing.

[wildsolus]

And on a side note: I prefer low-health-more-men squads over a high-hp-few-men squads any day, because that minor health difference doesnt change much, but in the end every man counts 

so how come I havent seen you play americans yet?

with that logic you would play allies because of the superior squad size... saying you would take rifles over say falls is retarded.