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[Tymathee]

You know this makes me laugh hard.

Taking off skirted to vet 2 and possibly raising the repair kits resources which in turn inceases RR - piat resources costs you will still see 4 P4's every company.
i kno i will still buy 4 p4s and a tiger, and i know lots of others will do so to, or you will just be doing is hurting yourself.

The fact is very simple, you hate vsing so many p4's, you hate that axis tactic, so your trying to stop it the best way you know how.

It has nothing to do with tactics, i play as axis myself and you know that. Yes I know that they need skirts to be "effective" but the fact is, all axis at are stronger vs allied tanks than allied at is vs axis tanks because of the higher penetration that schrecks and axis tanks tend to do.

The fact is when you're allied you have to think this way in tank vs tank.

I have Sherman, I see P4, run.

Axis

I have p4 with skirts, I see Sherman, charge.

Every axis tank over the stug can take on the mainline American and British tanks 1v1 with not much of a problem and Skirts make it much easier for P4s to contend vs Shermans.

In the end, my whole freakin argument is this. Skirts make up-gunned Shermans not worth it.

Non skirted p4 > non up gun sherman
non skirted p4 < up-gun sherman
skirted p4 > non-upgun sherman and up-gun sherman

and the sherman is basically wasting 75 mu vs the 60 mu that it takes for skirts. Theres a reason why you rarely see any upguns, because of price and they don't do anything vs skirted p4s which every axis company uses.

[gamesguy2]

In the end, my whole freakin argument is this. Skirts make up-gunned Shermans not worth it.

Non skirted p4 > non up gun sherman
non skirted p4 < up-gun sherman
skirted p4 > non-upgun sherman and up-gun sherman

and the sherman is basically wasting 75 mu vs the 60 mu that it takes for skirts. Theres a reason why you rarely see any upguns, because of price and they don't do anything vs skirted p4s which every axis company uses.

Are you going to continue to ignore my post tym?

P4 with skirts penetration vs upgunned sherman at medium range is 0.56.  Damage and accuracy is the same, rof is 5 seconds.

Sherman with upgun always penetrates but have rof of 7 seconds.

Average dps of p4 vs sherman is (87.5*.56+87.5*.15*(1-.56))/5=10.9dps
Average dps of sherman vs p4 is 87.5/7*.9=11.25dps, and sherman has 36 more hp.

Upgunned sherman has a significant advantage in a straight up 1v1 combat vs a skirted P4.   This advantage is much larger when you consider EIR tank combat is mostly one shot snipes and kiting, which hugely favors the always penetrating but slower reloading sherman.

If skirts are removed, and I think they should be, RRs and piats both need around a 25-50% cost increase.  Zooks probably should go up another 5 munitions each.

The days of wehr handheld AT superiority is long over.  Brits, Americans, and PE all have better AT than wehr.    RRs and piats in particular are far better than shreks.   

And tym, I upgunned all my shermans when I was playing armored company.

[Illegal_Carrot]

but the fact is, all axis at are stronger vs allied tanks than allied at is vs axis tanks because of the higher penetration that schrecks

Wrong. One for one, a single Schreck is better than a single RR/Zook (though comparable to a PIAT). But when you factor in price and cost-effectiveness, RRs, PIATs, and TR Zooks are more cost effective. This is even more true with the recent increase of HH AT price.
But I'll agree with you that Schreck > non-TR Zooks.

I have Sherman, I see P4, run.
I have p4 with skirts, I see Sherman, charge.

1) Shermans (both 75 and 76mm) are better against infantry, so it's a fair trade off, I'd say vs the P4s better AT (than the 75, but not the 76mm).
2) a) Even if it loses 1v1, a 75mm Sherman will put the P4 in a world of hurt
2) b) 76mm Shermans own P4s
2) c) Skirts have almost nothing to do with a P4's AT capabilities. As I said before, the difference between a skirt/non-skirt P4, when fighting a Sherman, is only one shot, damage-wise.
3) Axis/Allies were not designed to mirror each other. Stop expecting P4s and Shermans to be equal AT-wise.

Non skirted p4 > non up gun sherman
non skirted p4 < up-gun sherman
skirted p4 > non-upgun sherman and up-gun sherman

Are we playing the same game? Do you know what you're talking about?

75mm Sherman < P4 (though the P4 will take a beating)
76mm Sherman > P4 (every time)
Skirts have nothing to do with this.

Theres a reason why you rarely see any upguns, because of price and they don't do anything vs skirted p4s which every axis company uses.

Skirts on one Wehr unit has nothing to do with the low cost-effectiveness of the 76mm.

[Tymathee]

I just said earlier that a skirted p4 takes 10% less damage from both Sherman guns and no other AT source but hand held AT gets that nerf. This includes m10, m18's pershings, etc.

So you get a lower ROF, added to the fact that you're doing less damage. Look it up in the .rgd yourself, go to the 75mm gun, look under the target tables and look at panzeriv_skrited and you'll see it does 0.90 damage vs both guns.

[gamesguy2]

I just said earlier that a skirted p4 takes 10% less damage from both Sherman guns and no other AT source but hand held AT gets that nerf. This includes m10, m18's pershings, etc.

So you get a lower ROF, added to the fact that you're doing less damage. Look it up in the .rgd yourself, go to the 75mm gun, look under the target tables and look at panzeriv_skrited and you'll see it does 0.90 damage vs both guns.

You continue to ignore my post.

[Guderian6pndr]

The P4 deserves it's slight benefits in this case, as it is bearing the brunt of the wehrmacht's workload. It's not on the level with shermans exactly because allies have plenty of light to medium AT vehicles which are all fast, whereas the
P4 is the Axis mainstay and is slower than every allied vehicle besides churchills (until they get flank speed), so it has a lot of trouble just getting out of engagements. Allied ATGs kill them in 3.5 shots whereas PaKs require almost 6 good hits to take out a sherman. Every unit has it's own balance vs. others so you can't make them equal.

As far as schrecks go, it is currently a laughable situation (if it weren't so disgusting). As far as the stats go, it seems like they are almost twice as good as the RR one for one, but in reality, the incredibly slow setup and unreliable behavior of grens or storms means they often don't fire while AB snipe away with both barrels as fast as they can. 2 AB can take out a P4 from the front without losing a man, and if they do, they usually lose 1-2 at max.

Personally I've had so many engagements where my storms came out of cover and fired both schrecks directly into the dirt in front of them and then proceeded to do the belly flop and get run over by any number of allied tanks which are faster infantry and can suppress them easily. Now with the price increase, it's almost textbook insanity to spend 300 mp and 370 mun on a 4 man squad which will average 1-2 schreck shots and maybe a grenade kill per game.

[Mysthalin]

The P4 is better than the sherman because it costs more, tym.
In the end, 10 percent isn't all that much whatsoever - it's not at all a problem with skirts. It's a problem with upgun being an underperformer.
The P4 does not need a further nerf, not at all. Sure, it's the best MBT in the game, when equiped with skirts, but it also costs more than any other MBT.

[CommanderHolt]

The P4 deserves it's slight benefits in this case, as it is bearing the brunt of the wehrmacht's workload. It's not on the level with shermans exactly because allies have plenty of light to medium AT vehicles which are all fast, whereas the
P4 is the Axis mainstay and is slower than every allied vehicle besides churchills (until they get flank speed), so it has a lot of trouble just getting out of engagements. ....

The Panzer IV has the maximum speed of 5 which is only .2 slower then most sherman varients which means speed diffrences are pretty neglitable.

Also Puma can be upgunned to act as Light/medium AT (Which also happens to be faster then the M8).

[Illegal_Carrot]

I just said earlier that a skirted p4 takes 10% less damage from both Sherman guns and no other AT source but hand held AT gets that nerf. This includes m10, m18's pershings, etc.

So you get a lower ROF, added to the fact that you're doing less damage. Look it up in the .rgd yourself, go to the 75mm gun, look under the target tables and look at panzeriv_skrited and you'll see it does 0.90 damage vs both guns.

I know Skirts give a 10% damage reduction. What I'm saying is that 10% reduction doesn't mean anything overall in this comparison.
Lower ROF only affects the 76mm, which is more than made up for by the fact that the 76mm will penetrate the P4 100% of the time. I've already mentioned like 20 times that he 10% damage reduction doesn't equate to much in the end.

And why do you keep mentioning that only the Sherman gets the 10% damage reduction? What does that have to do with anything?

[Rocksitter]

 Serious the P4 is fine if you want to get into a real problem look into AB or light armor spam now your talking problem..

 I have played in one game in my past 30 with P4 spam while playing in a least 85% or more of those with either AB or LA LV spam and you know if it was that big of a I win Button you would see everybody and there mom doing it people catch on real quick to gimmick companies and start to copy cat...

[RikiRude]

I'm starting to wonder if this is really a question about the P4, or if it's just a question of a price reduction for the upgun?

the P4 is about as much of a main stay in the wher army as rifles are in the US army. a good axis player almost always keeps a P4 on the field because it can deal with infantry and it can deal with armor. you keep rifles on the field because they do the same, just on a much less damaging scale of course.

i do think the upgun should be reduced to maybe 50 muni, because i still don't think we would see many people using them. and i still think the problem remains that shermans simply aren't meant to take on P4s, they are meant to rape infantry.

[Bubz]

What will happen if you put a schrek and rec.rifl.airbones in the mix? Big weakness of the u.s. faction is the low resistance to that random indirect hit, be it that alpha schrek or mortar hit.

[Draken]

Axis/Allies were not designed to mirror each other. Stop expecting P4s and Shermans to be equal AT-wise.

Well prices are almost mirror like even if unupgunned sherman will get raped by p4.

If upgunned sherman cost was only 10 more fuel then p4 I guess we would see mirror whining from axis players.

Either unupgunned sherman is ovepriced or p4 is underpriced, but I would rather say that first option.

[Tymathee]

Thats my main argument. Either teh upgun needs a decrease or the skirts (all types) need a price increase no one uses up-guns and they're not cost effective at all, i might sa well create a new thread about upguns

[Wolster]

Carnt believe this disscussion is still going tbh, o wait its not, its just Tym not letting it die.

Move along everyone nothing to see here, Tym wont accept the many valid reasons posted above why he is completly incorrect on this point.

[AmPM]

Tym, Skirts are fine, upgun needs price decrease.

[pqumsieh]

from what I've understood of tyms arguement, he is more concerned with the benifits given to the P4 and other tanks via skirts compared to their price. 60 munitions is arguably too little for what you get from skirts. So I think he would be more interested in increasing the price of skirts then decreasing the cost of the upgun. He merely used the sherman upgun as a comparable example of how effective skirts are. As many other community members have already stated, P4's and other tanks without skirts are a big risk, putting skirts on is almost manditory to make the tank worth its cost.

So rather then decreasing upgrun, perhaps increasing the cost of skirts is more in line.

PQ

[CafeMilani]

skirts have been nerfed some time ago btw

[SX23]

Schrecks >>> RR's.

Tell me something. If you had one slot to go and there's an RR and a Schrck on the ground next to each other, which do you pick up? The Schreck easy.

What is that bad joke??? You pay 210 muni in a pe army to have 2 shrecks, and the shrecks miss 25 % of the time. Now, if you're ab, u got 3 rr for 160 muni, the rr does alwasy penetrate, even a jagppanther front armor and never miss. And also, they are way better against inf than the shrecks.

[Mysthalin]

2 RRs cost 180 MU.
3 Would cost 270 MU.

RRs do miss, and quite often. Just they got good scatter values, so their shots don't spread out so much. They do NOT always penetrate anything - not in the least.

And they SUCK vs infantry, and the carbines on the 4 other airborne are about as good as 1 grenadier rifle at long range or 2 at close and medium range.

1 PE rifle is worth 3 carbines at long range, 1.5 at medium and close range.