Ambush Ability

[Guest]

Welcome, Guest. Please login or register.
Did you miss your activation email?

1 Hour 1 Day 1 Week 1 Month Forever

Login with username, password and session length

[LuAn]

Heyo, i stumbled across something interesting:

attrib\attrib\abilities\_europeinruins\pe\panzer_elite_fallschirmjager_camo.rgd
attrib\attrib\abilities\_europeinruins\pe\doctrines\luftwaffe_luft_ambush.rgd

Is the ambush ability for the FJ/FJTB+Luftwaffe Infantry, now we all know, or should know, that this ambush ability was changed in the last patch:

*  Fallschirmjager Tankbusters are no longer effected by stealth first strike bonus.
*  Stealthing Anti tank infantry will take longer to revert back to stealth.

 to work like this:

actually the only thing that fj cloak ability does is, let them cloak..

the camoflague extension in the ebps is where you look for the stats on how long it takes.  troops popping in and out of stealth is silliness to the extreme.   it will take 10 seconds for a unit to recloak after an action, in combat, out of combat, anything.  Doesn't matter.  so if within those 10 seconds he does another action, it will take 10 seconds after that action.

ambush does not = continued ambush, nor should it.  I should look at the snipers and paks camoflague as well actually, having them pop in and out while under fire, i wonder if that can be fixed..

Now there are several  things I want to bring up:

The Ambush Ability has been changed for every unit using it, not only anti tank infantry
Either the changelog statement is wrong and its supposed to be like that, or this is a implementation screw up of some sort, however some clarification would be nice.


The new Ambush only allows your Units to recloak 10sec after the last action from them has ended.
So theres no more infight recloaking, which, in the matter of gameplay logic, makes perfect sense to me, theres no arguing there, that whole recloaking thing was just annoying.
But, in the matter of gameplay balance, and considering the units and the benefits they gained from that recloaking mechanism, this "fix" can be perceived as a "nerf" to those units regarding gameplay balance.
Will this change ever become compensated by some minor balance change? (Every Ambush shot has a 1.25dmg and 1.25 acc modifier to it, so due to the removal of infight cloaking this change leads to a direct 25% dmg and 25% acc reduction).

So what are your thoughts on this new Ambush Ability?
Is the removal of the first strike bonus on FJ TankBuster and the Ambush change at the same time justfied?

Id propose a minor "buff" to the ambush ability:
The First Strike Bonus should not only be applied to the first shot fire out of stealth, but to all shots for a period of time, meaning for like e.g. 5 seconds after the first strike has happened the ambush modifiers will be in effect.
Or change the ambush once again and compensate for the increased (= old) effectiveness by increased the MP cost of FJ/FJTB.

(In my opinion this change/"fix" can be compared, balance wise, to a removal of the suppresion removal effect from Fire Up/Heroic Charge/Commando Smoke, meaning that those three abilites wouldnt remove any exisiting suppresion on the units, but make them immune to any further suppresion.
If this change would be made, it could be directly compared to the new ambush ability balance wise in my opinion.)

[spinn72]

All we need is that Beta Ambush Bonus as a T3 to stay as an Ambush bonus.  If you think 1.5x damaging shrecks (or any weapon for that matter, even ones picked up) that will almost always hit from 35 range while cloaked is not OP then what else are you saying?

The main problem with this ability is the bonus, and the fact that with 12 luftewaffe squads in supply and 4 falls + 3 or so fall tankbusters that you can take advantage of a couple of doctrine abilities and abuse them more than you could elite airborne.

[LuAn]

All we need is that Beta Ambush Bonus as a T3 to stay as an Ambush bonus.  If you think 1.5x damaging shrecks (or any weapon for that matter, even ones picked up) that will almost always hit from 35 range while cloaked is not OP then what else are you saying?

The main problem with this ability is the bonus, and the fact that with 12 luftewaffe squads in supply and 4 falls + 3 or so fall tankbusters that you can take advantage of a couple of doctrine abilities and abuse them more than you could elite airborne.

What do you mean by that?
Which bonus? Check the rgd files for yourself, there currently is no "Bonus".
Have you read and understood my post? If no, what things are unclear?

[LuAn]

Hello? Can anybody hear me? If yes could somebody please bring me some light into this darkness?

[salan]

patients is a virtue?

the ambush bonus's are in the entity blue prints in their camoflague extension..

for instance:

attrib\attrib\ebps\races\axis_panzer_elite\_europeinruins\soldiers\fallshirmjager.rgd

look at the camouflage.ext

then look at first_strike_actions, then look at abilities actions action01 has a  apply modifier action which adds 1.25 damage and 1.25 accuracy..

understandable?

[LuAn]

Gotcha, so the two things changed from vCoH are
reveal_duration: 5 -> 6
revert_time: 1 -> 10
revert_time_on_detection: 1 -> 5

which seems only minor, but looking at the long term effects this directly leads to a 15-25% Damage and 15-25% Accuracy decrease in longer lasting ambush fights, which seems a bit harsh to me?
Removing the first strike bonus AND changing ambush for FJ Tankbuster at the same time?
What were the reasons behind this.

Mhm is there any way to make this effect last longer so that not only 1 shot gains the first strike bonus but make it like a 4-5 second thing?

Any thoughts on this?

(Prior to this change FJ + FG42 in ambush were some serious troubles for commandos, now i can walk them right over with my commandos without the need of a grenade any more.)

P.s.:  Nobody seems to care about this change , but I think if just 1 minor thing about fire up would be changed,  all hell would break loose....

[Tymathee]

in vcoh cloakingl ike that isn't a big deal, you can spam jeeps and stuff but in our environment, being able to camo while you're being fired at is really stupid. Basically its like something blinking out of existence while you're lookin at it, so what the change does is make it like the m18, where you can't camo while someone is looking right at you and engaging you,s o it no long becomes a cloak, but an ambush or "you didn't see me before, so you can't see me yet" and then if under fire "you can see me, so you can't not see me by me pr essing this little button here, now i have to actually be smart in my play and not have an auto get away button and then ic an force you into my trap"

[gamesguy2]

in vcoh cloakingl ike that isn't a big deal, you can spam jeeps and stuff but in our environment, being able to camo while you're being fired at is really stupid. Basically its like something blinking out of existence while you're lookin at it, so what the change does is make it like the m18, where you can't camo while someone is looking right at you and engaging you,s o it no long becomes a cloak, but an ambush or "you didn't see me before, so you can't see me yet" and then if under fire "you can see me, so you can't not see me by me pr essing this little button here, now i have to actually be smart in my play and not have an auto get away button and then ic an force you into my trap"

Both paks and falls need the cloak toggle that makes it so it can't cloak in combat, like the M18.

[Smokaz]

The m18 ambush is highly abusable, you can pop cloak from uncloaked state once you are in range of the tank and then receive ambush bonuses. Then again.. it is the same for paks.

[Falcon333]

The m18 ambush is highly abusable, you can pop cloak from uncloaked state once you are in range of the tank and then receive ambush bonuses. Then again.. it is the same for paks.

But Paks are used more devensively than M18's

[NCOIC]

Um I dunno but I've seen the Paks used pretty offensively

[pqumsieh]

I already demonstrated that the beta ambush was way to powerful when combined with the stacked benifits provided by the doctrine. At max power, one squad could 3 shot a sherman (easily done when you pick up a second shrek and literally rape all armor).

The squad alone is powerful enough as a T3, adding the ambush bonuses into it makes it a T4 tbh. So it was either move the Falls TB squad to T4 or leave them at T3 and remove bonuses.

PQ

[LuAn]

I already demonstrated that the beta ambush was way to powerful when combined with the stacked benifits provided by the doctrine. At max power, one squad could 3 shot a sherman (easily done when you pick up a second shrek and literally rape all armor).

The squad alone is powerful enough as a T3, adding the ambush bonuses into it makes it a T4 tbh. So it was either move the Falls TB squad to T4 or leave them at T3 and remove bonuses.

PQ

Im perfectly fine with the removal of first strike bonus on FJ TankBuster, but im concered about the performance of all Ambush Units due to the Ambush change.

[VERTIGGO]

This was supposedly fixed on sappers, but what about the 6 pounder? In a recent game a brit 6 pounder kept re-cloaking and my P4 or whatever kept re-targeting, so I couldn't fight back. I'm sorry if it's been fixed since then and that I don't have the replay, but if not, it should be looked at as well.

[pqumsieh]

@ vert, this also exists on the pak; both units need to be fixed as recloaking during combat is just fail. Thankfully the 6lb doesnt get a first strike bonus; so its not as bad.

PQ

[Aggamemnon]

Neither does it get heavy cover from it's gun naturally.

Never seen them do this myself from all the time i have used them, as they require full cover for all men in the team and tanks usually blow it up on the first shell.

You sure it wasn't re-targeting a more favourable unit when you clicked to move? tanks love doing that

[VERTIGGO]

I watched it go invisible after each shot. Or rather watched it fire and then noticed its absence:o

Also, PQ, are you saying it works on the PaK if someone keeps clicking and exploiting the toggle? I know my crews don't revert for 10 seconds on their own.

[Blitzen]

I think PQ was more talking about how there could be a fight going on, and you pull your pak forward into the fight, then cloak it and let it hit a tank.  It cloaks even if there are units in sight range, or are firing at it.  Most players do this, kinda have to to make the pak do much damage.  Same thing the m18 does, drives up, disappears, you go OH SHII and bam your tank just took it in the face.
Doesn't bother me much though, because both sides can do that with their cloaking units.

[VERTIGGO]

Well I think the difference is that the Q.F 6 pounder cloaks whenever it's in cover or stopped (I'm not sure which) and so it's handled differently. I'm not sure what he was doing, but it needs to be fixed so it can't fire and then cloak between shots.

[jackmccrack]

The QF 6 Pounder cloaks only in cover.

If recloaked in battle the player is moving it between shots.