50mm ATHT

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[gamesguy2]

I believe this unit is currently far too powerful for its cost.   Before the availability changes, the 50mm HT was capped at two.   Now you can buy five, and the problem has become glaringly obvious.

When you spam those and marders and just use them to kill your enemy's AT guns by outnumbering them, the game just becomes borked.

There was a reason it was availability 2 before the patch.   This vehicle needs a massive price increase.  Its currently far too cheap at only 80 munitions, a pak costs 120 munitions by comparison.    

People are using it to snipe ATGs because its cheaper, is fast enough to chase tanks and run away from infantry.   Its like a mini-marder in the sense that you can't mortar it, you can't use snipers or flamers or any of the normal ATG counters.  But its also much faster and more manueverable compared to a marder so it can get out of situations that would kill a marder.

I believe this problem would be somewhat alleviated if marders are changed to support.   The marder IS basically an oversized ATG.   If you can't buy 5 AT halftracks and 4 marders, then the problem isn't as bad.

Alternatively, cut PE's support pool by at least half.    Look at the units in the support pool.  Americans/Wehr/Brit has to fit their MG/Mortar/ATG/sniper within this pool.   By comparison, the only PE units within this pool are 50mm HTs, mortar HTs(which are notoriously easy to keep alive), vampire and munitions HTs.    And all the PE support units are mounted on a halftrack chassis, making them easier to keep alive compared to the regular versions.

[Killer344]

"me thinks the Pak on wheels will always be close to OP/Broken, it penetrates more than a marder :/", LAHT's and marders have always been enough for me, and the occasional clown car with schrecks.

[Mysthalin]

Repeat after me :
"I will not post a balance thread right after i lose a game to whatever tactic beat me".

I only had 4 50mm halftracks, not 5. And, oh, I'm using all of my availability to the zeros. If anything the general concensus right now is that it's TOO HARD to build a PE company without going into PPs. The support pool also holds the hummel, the healing car and the simple LATHT.

The 50mm halftrack costs 60 fuel, as well the 80 munitions - it's not cheaper than an AT gun, en totale. It's quite fragile but yes, agreeably, people do rightfully expect 2 50mm ATHTs and a LATHT to take on an ATG and win. Considering the costs involved - I would expect 2 6 pdrs and a bofors to take out one pak, too.

[gamesguy2]

"me thinks the Pak on wheels will always be close to OP/Broken, it penetrates more than a marder :/", LAHT's and marders have always been enough for me, and the occasional clown car with schrecks.

I think this problem didn't show up under the old system because you were limited to two.  Anymore and you had to pay pp to oversupply on a vehicle that dies every game.

What the new availability system has done is demonstrate which units are OP.  As smokaz said in another thread.   Spamming one unit doesn't make it OP, its only when the unit itself was already overpowered.

[gamesguy2]

Repeat after me :
"I will not post a balance thread right after i lose a game to whatever tactic beat me".

I only had 4 50mm halftracks, not 5. And, oh, I'm using all of my availability to the zeros. If anything the general concensus right now is that it's TOO HARD to build a PE company without going into PPs. The support pool also holds the hummel, the healing car and the simple LATHT.

Then move the hummel to armor, I think the priest and cally or any extremely high fuel units should be moved to armor as well.

I have no problem building a PE company without going into PPs, its only when you want to spam 30 vehicles is there a problem.

The support scout car is a single unit from a single doctrine, and most SE companies only run one.

The 50mm halftrack costs 60 fuel, as well the 80 munitions - it's not cheaper than an AT gun, en totale. It's quite fragile but yes, agreeably, people do rightfully expect 2 50mm ATHTs and a LATHT to take on an ATG and win. Considering the costs involved - I would expect 2 6 pdrs and a bofors to take out one pak, too.

Two 6 pounders and a bofors would not kill a pak.   How are you going to get the bofors in range of the pak?  Magic?   If I saw two 6 pounders slowly advancing on me I would just back my pak up or stay cloaked.

On the otherhand, the 50mm HT can drive into range and starts sniping so quickly there is no chance to retreat your ATG, not to mention the 57mm cannot cloak.  Whats worse is the 50mm HT can setup a flank extremely quickly, get off a volley of shots at your ATG, and drive away by the time your ATG has slowly picked up and turned around.  And it can do this over and over at little risk to itself.    In addition, the 50mm HT isn't vulnerable to the normal ATG counters and thus only AT weapons should damage it.  And unlike a normal ATG, it can just pay 25 munitions and repair itself up back to full, without even needing infantry to recrew.

[Sixpack]

Then move the hummel to armor, I think the priest and cally or any extremely high fuel units should be moved to armor as well.

I have no problem building a PE company without going into PPs, its only when you want to spam 30 vehicles is there a problem.

The support scout car is a single unit from a single doctrine, and most SE companies only run one.

Two 6 pounders and a bofors would not kill a pak.   How are you going to get the bofors in range of the pak?  Magic?   If I saw two 6 pounders slowly advancing on me I would just back my pak up or stay cloaked.

On the otherhand, the 50mm HT can drive into range and starts sniping so quickly there is no chance to retreat your ATG, not to mention the 57mm cannot cloak.  Whats worse is the 50mm HT can setup a flank extremely quickly, get off a volley of shots at your ATG, and drive away by the time your ATG has slowly picked up and turned around.  And it can do this over and over at little risk to itself.    In addition, the 50mm HT isn't vulnerable to the normal ATG counters and thus only AT weapons should damage it.  And unlike a normal ATG, it can just pay 25 munitions and repair itself up back to full, without even needing infantry to recrew.

You smoking crack?
Armour doc will NOT get my hummel, just go airborne and laugh all the way back to the bank, or have fun with churchills, the 50mm has been nerfed enough.

[gamesguy2]

Then move the hummel to armor, I think the priest and cally or any extremely high fuel units should be moved to armor as well.

I have no problem building a PE company without going into PPs, its only when you want to spam 30 vehicles is there a problem.

The support scout car is a single unit from a single doctrine, and most SE companies only run one.

Two 6 pounders and a bofors would not kill a pak.   How are you going to get the bofors in range of the pak?  Magic?   If I saw two 6 pounders slowly advancing on me I would just back my pak up or stay cloaked.

On the otherhand, the 50mm HT can drive into range and starts sniping so quickly there is no chance to retreat your ATG, not to mention the 57mm cannot cloak.  Whats worse is the 50mm HT can setup a flank extremely quickly, get off a volley of shots at your ATG, and drive away by the time your ATG has slowly picked up and turned around.  And it can do this over and over at little risk to itself.    In addition, the 50mm HT isn't vulnerable to the normal ATG counters and thus only AT weapons should damage it.  And unlike a normal ATG, it can just pay 25 munitions and repair itself up back to full, without even needing infantry to recrew.

You smoking crack?
Armour doc will NOT get my hummel, just go airborne and laugh all the way back to the bank, or have fun with churchills, the 50mm has been nerfed enough.

Armor as in armor supply pool, not armor doctrine...

There is a serious problem if airborne is the only counter to 50mm HTs.

[Draken]

I first time agree with gamesguy, pop of this shit should be also increased, it's now must have in strat if it was 5 or 6 pop people would think again about buying it.

It just eliminated normal at halftrack noone uses it, cuz what's the point?

Maybe just delete that stupid 50 mm and give normal at ht something like ap rounds on cooldown with munition cost so it will have penetration like 50 mm atm but not be able to win anytime with sherman in 1v1, this shit is really broken, it most effective tank counter what exist in game atm.

[TheDrunkenSmurf]

The upgunned ATHT is 80mun and 80 fuel so it is not cheaper than an AT gun its price is divided into fuel and munition.

50mm ATHT has its strong sides (movability, less fuel than a marderIII) and its weak sides (killed by rifle fire, killed by AT, weaker than a marderIII, costs munition unlike the marderIII).

When i play PE i have always the feeling the 57mm AT gun and 6 pounder are overpowered. This is the case because they can handle half of my army and it is hard for me to counter them (when they are like always supported).

In case of the AT halftrack i see many making the mistake and trying to counter them using armor. The strategy to deal with them is using infantry and baiting them into AT gun traps.

They have different uses to the marderIII and it is not the case that they can replace marderIII their task is to support your other AT (like marderIII).

They are class cannons and like weaker paks (that can not cloak, no remenable, lower reload...) on wheels.

[Mysthalin]

So it's your own fault letting 2 50 mms and a LATHT flank and kill your ATGs - all I can say. Have a ranger squad, a sticky squad, an AB squad to support the ATG, and they won't die.

Seriously - the 50mm has been nerfed enough.

[Ununoctium]

the 50mm is more like a stug than an ATG
1. it can shoot while moving
2. it moves fast
3. it doesn't need to lock down or pick up the AT gun and rotate it.
4. cant be rushed by infantry or mortared
5. cant be recrewed

[Mysthalin]

Ununoctium - the word you were looking for was "marder" not StuG .


1. It can shoot while moving, but now has terrible accuracy(thank god).
2. Yeah, StuG isn't known for it's speed. But the LATHT does move fast.
3. Marder.
4. It can indeed be rushed by infantry and it will die if it stays there, even if it's just vanilla riflemen. Mortared... Well, it can die to mortaring, if it stays there.
5. Yup, rather huge minus. You can both recrew, and heal a 57 mm(triage), but you can only heal a 50mm once(and not fully, in my experience).

[Demon767]

World?

[Ununoctium]

actually if compared to all other AT its biggest issues is its turn rate outspeeds every support weapon in the game. and 3 times as fast as an ATG and 2x Marder

[sgMisten]

1. It can shoot while moving, but now has terrible accuracy(thank god).
Yep at 0.25 moving accuracy now.


2. Yeah, StuG isn't known for it's speed. But the LATHT does move fast.
Yes fast.

3. Marder.
Rotates faster than Marder and doesn't need to lockdown.


4. It can indeed be rushed by infantry and it will die if it stays there, even if it's just vanilla riflemen. Mortared... Well, it can die to mortaring, if it stays there.
Er... this implies that any allied player can use basic infantry as a valid unit to kill a 50mm ATHT in a significantly game-changing timeframe? Really?


5. Yup, rather huge minus. You can both recrew, and heal a 57 mm(triage), but you can only heal a 50mm once(and not fully, in my experience).
57mm gun health can't be repaired, none of the ATGs can. This is actually a point in favour of the 50mm ATHT; what normally kills a ATG crew doesn't kill the 50mm. What can kill the 50mm also kills ATGs, which can't be repaired while the 50mm can.

[Mysthalin]

Triages and SE scout cars can indeed heal ATGs, misten.

And yes, rifle fire does significant damage to LATHTs. 2 Squads of riflemen will gun it down in 20-25 seconds.

Even if it does rotate faster than a marder, it has a huger wind-up time, which causes it to be as unable to shoot a circle-strafing target as the marder is.

[LuAn]

I do agree that the the categorization of PE Vehicles currently is very strange, epsecially the Marder, ATHT, 50mm need some looking at.

In my opinion:
ATHT should go into light vehicles category
Marder should go into Support category and have its Cost reduced to 2, to be the same as other ATGuns
50mm should stay in support and keep its 3 Point cost

[Sharpshooter44]

Mysthalin, what misten is trying to say is that you can't heal the HP of the actual ATG, yes you can heal the crew of it but not the actual ATG....unless you are armor co and pop field repairs lul..

Anyways what I think of the 50mm ATHT is... yes it has terible moving accuracy but its super high range means it can Speed off chasing that.... oh lets say sherman, and with its super range it can get in range, stop and fire off 1-2 rounds and repeat till sherman is dead

As it is any piece of armor really has no way of escaping these things and with the armor type they are using they seem to be  very resistant to tank shells meaning it takes like 4-5 shots with a sherman to destroy one..

And about riflemen killing 50mm ATHTs, yes that can be absolutely true................IF YOU ARE A BLIND IDIOT WHO CAN'T MICRO! This thing easily can outrun just about any unit..

[Baine]

Mysthalin, what misten is trying to say is that you can't heal the HP of the actual ATG, yes you can heal the crew of it but not the actual ATG....unless you are armor co and pop field repairs lul..

Healing stations can all heal the actual ATG not just the crew.

[RikiRude]

You have to assume that it must be a little bit OP if from what I have seen, most players have totally abandoned the LATHT and ONLY use the 50mm ATHT.

Also is there a difference in how they look?