Pop Of all vehicles

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[Ununoctium]

8 pop:
M8, T17, Upgun puma, hotchkiss (stuka also)

6 pop:
AC, puma

5 pop:
flammen
hotchkiss command

Now as an assessment of the pop:damage/life ratio it seems the m8 should go down to about 7-6. 6 could be considered a bit too far but every time I see one of these it cant solo anything that it can kill. m8 does to vehicles/inf exactly as the puma does. low damage, low rate of fire.
The thing is that the m8 is outclassed by all the 8 pop vehicles and may be a bit too much for the 6, but at least a 7 is warranted to be thought about.

[CrazyWR]

you left off quad, stuart, staghound and regular halftracks...

[Baine]

The m8 and the upgun puma are very similar, if not the same, so I don't see why it should be less pop.

[Ununoctium]

The m8 and the upgun puma are very similar, if not the same, so I don't see why it should be less pop.

well they used to be.
Now they aren't.

upgun puma has more damage and more penetration vs other stuffs. it has the same AI as the m8 and always wins vs an m8.

you left off quad, stuart, staghound and regular halftracks...

I knew i forgot some stuff. regular halftracks are all 3 they're fine.
i consider the brit staghound a tank and i cant balance/play the british for my life.

[gamesguy2]

The m8 and the upgun puma are very similar, if not the same, so I don't see why it should be less pop.

well they used to be.
Now they aren't.

upgun puma has more damage and more penetration vs other stuffs. it has the same AI as the m8 and always wins vs an m8.

M8 with 50 cal is a lot better at anti-infantry than the upgunned puma.

[Ununoctium]

The m8 and the upgun puma are very similar, if not the same, so I don't see why it should be less pop.

well they used to be.
Now they aren't.

upgun puma has more damage and more penetration vs other stuffs. it has the same AI as the m8 and always wins vs an m8.

M8 with 50 cal is a lot better at anti-infantry than the upgunned puma.

well using the 50 munitions upgrade that also can die on its own it brings the m8 close to a puma's AI and it's still only nibbles away at vehicles a bit better than the puma but worse than the upgun. thats why I said 7 pop probably and 6 hopefully since i always hope for all units to be 0 pop and free. Neverending EiR ftw.

[Smokaz]

The light vehicle discussion constantly ignores the biggest issue, imo. Allied light vehicles have a HUGE advantage over axis light vehicles because they can crash into the axis units. At long range, they arent so bad. Its the fact that the axis infantry cant sticky or button them that lets stags and quads just turn them to goo in 5 seconds because they have no disabling type of defence. Hell, pumas even have to stay away from unupgraded vet 0 rifles because you constantly have to watch out for sticky bombs. If you know hes terror and has a shrek, or you know he can pop into a building you see this upgrade, you have a feeling for whether or not you can mush it.

Even if pumas and flammenwerfers or ac's were inherently superior to their allied counterparts, they'd still do worse since they just cant go in there nedneck style and shove their shotguns up the ass of the allied infantry.

[Groundfire]

Disabling weapons? why cant we improve the faust crit tables against light vehicles?

[Ununoctium]

you do have a point smokaz but its really just button. stickies are such a stupid AT weapon sometimes. 60 mun to damage an engine and then you gotta get the kill. albeit quads and t17s have the im invincible to fausts bug but the m8 is different to this arguement. its always been the halfway between puma and upgun so im saying put it there.

[Smokaz]

What? Sticky vet 2 range is ridicolous. Faust doesnt even get range increase with vet anymore, at least its not readable from current veterancy. You can sticky a panther just outside its sight range at vet 2. They even dropped in price so more of your vet 2+ squads can have them. A disabled tank is a dead tank most of the time. Sticky is how you kill the axis heavies, you make them waste a repair, you make them open to fast moving tank destroyers. If theres a vet 2 rifle squad next to a 57mm, I dont go near it with my tanks. Even if it succees in decrewing the 57mm, thats a tank not getting out of the situation any time soon.

Faust critical table against light vehicles, and their damage modifiers would help a lot. Go test a faust hit vs a t17 or a british staghound. It barely hurts them. 4 faust hits (20 pop of volks) would probably bring a t17 to half health.

I'm not saying its imbalanced, but unless PE and wehr infantry could somehow punish tanks for trying to crush them like the allied tommies and rifles can, axis light vehicles will always be inferior. Long range accuracy for most light vehicles isnt that uber, meaning they take time to kill allowing you to bring up at.

When you can use all your light vehicles at point blank range, a huge amount of extra accuracy comes into play making them deal more damage.

I remember a while back someone proposing rifle squads to have a visible sticky upgrade. Sounds more and more fair to me in the current environment, considering all other disablers except mines loudly proclaim their presence.

Take this very common example from any game. T17, a stag or a quad is rampaging your backcapping infantry. Now the volk or the pgs throw their at nade/fire their faust, its now on a cooldown and it barely damages them. A allied infantry squad with a disabler can move into cover and wait it out until help can arrive - an axis infantry squad trying the same gets pushed out of cover and annihilaited or quickly retreated as its health is flushed down the toilet. By the time help is there, the allied light vehicle has gotten away.

Again, Im not saying its imbalanced but its a MAJOR part of why light vehicles are so successful against axis. Sending up a 12 pop p4 thats slower than a allied light vehicle and barely can hit it on the move to begin with, effectively neuters the other force the p4 was supporting. Single shreks are pointless, single paks are pointless. They just dominate the sides of the game, because nothing can counter them popeffectively AND stay mobile against it.

Watch that 3v3 on schindel with pudding, pak and gamesguy. Killer sacrifices hordes of PE infantry all game to try to keep up with backcapping, eventually draining him try. If they had redeployed all their slow ass infantry based AT, the t17 just switches sides.

Upgun puma is to blame for wehr, its inability to chase throgh disabling infantry and horrible accuracy on the move comes to mind. PE can send a clown car or a 50mm atht and compete in mobility, but the amount of AT population then possibly drawn away from the main push is still atrocious.

Also, compare the recharge of the only reliable disabler PE gets to a sticky. And you pay more for this, on a unit that cannot actually fight anything with even more munitions or supported poured into making it perform. A sticky rifle with carabines or a zook, a sticky rifle backcapping.. it can achieve much more than a ATHT.

[gamesguy2]

Vet 2 sticky range is 25, faust range is 35, I dunno what kind of stickies your rifles have...

[LeoPhone]

and again il suggest..... give the faust a stun ability like the allies have.
the t17 white phosphorus round for example.

[Smokaz]

The effective range of the sticky is noticably larger than this and it also goes through buildings and hedges. Once the animation is set off, the sticky will chase the overdrive AC or whatever it is halfway across the map instead of just turning into air like a faust will if the vehicle gets out of range.

Even if faust range was 40, its still a peashooter that most allied vehicles and armor ignores. So what if you faust me, It cost me a tiny sliver of health and my unit is standing right on top of your FSJ or volks making bacon.

[BigDick]

i totally have to agree with smokaz on this one

allied light armor is so effective because they are fast, they have not to fear stickies (you can rush into squads and have much higher dmg output) and when there is some at you just run away raiding somewhere else

the m8 is superior to an upgunned puma because it can take on one half of one axis faction company (pe) with its maingun and the other half with its maingun+hmg

actually it is more pop effective than an upgunned puma because it can deal with infantry AND the most vehicles

and the point that makes light vehicles a pain in the ass pop effective unit is armor with its capping ability
you can raid with your light armor and you don't even need infantry to cap or backcap
if you see you ge backcaped you will always need some serious AT to kill the M8/T17 and infantry to recap

[CrazyWR]

light vehicle spam isn't that hard to deal with, the problem is people refuse to put enough AT on the field at once, and proceed to lose it one by one...anyways, I guess I just don't see the upside to this idea, but oh well.

[Killer344]

Watch that 3v3 on schindel with pudding, pak and gamesguy. Killer sacrifices hordes of PE infantry all game to try to keep up with backcapping, eventually draining him try. If they had redeployed all their slow ass infantry based AT, the t17 just switches sides.

It was o4b, Groundfire, CrazyWR against me, DasNOOB and puddin...lolz.

[Baine]

light vehicle spam isn't that hard to deal with, the problem is people refuse to put enough AT on the field at once, and proceed to lose it one by one...anyways, I guess I just don't see the upside to this idea, but oh well.

No. It's because mobile AT is expensive and people don't want to bring out all the AT just to get buttuf***ed endgame.

[CrazyWR]

I don't get it.  So you bring it out one piece at a time, and all game long have not enough AT, or you bring on 3-4 pieces early and rape a few waves, then have plenty left for the next few waves when those 3-4 pieces finally die?

[BigDick]

the only thing that is fast enough to be able to catch allied light vehicles is upgunned puma for wehrmacht (but that suck against infantry and cannot cap) or clowncar by PE (less shrecks because way to expensive = less clowncars)

if you don't have something to catch them all you can do is camp with your stuff at one place and bait them but than you get backcapped

[AmPM]

Panthers clean them up pretty nice.