I am making a personal rule two.

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[Smokaz]

And really Two? You don't run shreks at all?  Well then you should be punished by light vehicles for it.  It's like saying I do a 38 rifleman company with BARs and nades only, then complaining that Armored Cars and ostwinds own me...

Do us a favour and make a axis company that relies on schrecks to kill light vehicles.

If I still had the replay, I could give you one of my 2 stormtrooper squads killing not only 7 light vehicles total, but also killing a vet 2 pershing and forcing a vet 3 one off-field(OBM and field repairs). My enemies were Smokaz and Deadbolt. So I'd reckon that an axis company that relies on shreks to kill light vehicles would be quite efficient, at least in my hands...
PE has TD shreks, which can cloak in cover for a simmilar, if slightly less offensive effect.

As for the ultimate counter to T17s - use a P4 :S.

Rofl I knew that game was going to be mentioned sooner or later, a game where a total of 30 different virus warnings from downloading a spyware-filled video edit program made me alt-tab out of game the around every 10th second. You did get the lag messages, didnt you?

Also as usual the point of discussion flies straight over your head like a engineer deflecting a tiger round, sending 12 pop to deal with 8 is not a counter.. not even taking in the fact that the t17 can just run from the p4 at any rate.

[Mysthalin]

Please refrain from flamebaiting, smokie.

I do not care why you lost the game, nor did I even MENTION that you lost it - that was not the point of my post. I had no lag messages, and the game was very much playable, and quite enjoyable, thank you. At any rate - I pointed out that using shreks as a reliable counter to kill light vehicles against capable players is quite possible, not that you lost - take that post as such.

Yet, tell me, since when are wehrmacht light vehicles superior to their allied counterparts? If you need an equal-pop counter on the same chasis, try the upgun hotchkiss. It deals pretty well against the T17. Alternatively, you could use a 5-pop double-shrek stormsquad. Even better, use a 10-pop double double shrek storm callin, which will more than likely not only win the engagement, but last you for quite a few more to come.

[Smokaz]

Where does my post mention the result? The point was that 1 player was stopped from being capable and that the particular game doesnt prove that shreks alone are a viable counter to light vehicles.

And yet again you miss the point. Two double shrek storms is 600 munitions and cannot be everywhere if they are to stay cloaked unless you wanna start mixing in blitzkrieg and storms running around uncloked to catch the t17. Theres no mobile counter to the t17 for wehr, for the same pop.

I'm saying that t17 is broken against wehr because the puma underperforms against it for pop causing anything but a static counter to be reliable, not that PE doesnt have counters to it. The upgun puma beats the m8 reliably which has the same role as the t17, should the m8 beat the upgun puma too?

[lionel23]

Again I've had many games where I used no pak guns and rely strictly on shreks and a single 88 and I've had no problems with them.

And on the issue of the backcapping, isn't that the same as an entirely mobilized PE army running around back capping, outrunning everything that the allies have Practically?  And why don't you just put one squad in every front sector? Then the T17 can't cap, because now you're trying to tread into the backcapping debate issue that was on these forums a while back.

And you consider grens to be 'static' like mines?  They can move, same with the double double storm shreks.  Worried about t17s raping your inf? Well duh, keep your AT infantry near your infantry, as tanks can handle themselves just as well.  A P4 easily scares off t17s, and a competent allied player would only risk so many t17s to do a quick strike and pull out if tanks and AT are present, simple as that.

And what if the t17 runs at your pak and shrek squad and knocks them out of cover?  I don't believe that thing can knock down stone walls and the like, and you can always build tank traps too near the bags to prevent that and mess with its pathing, and KNOWING he will knock your cover out, put the dang volk mine in front of the sandbag, you have your easy bait there.

T17 Player: Hehe, going run run over the guy's silly cover and own his infantry... hehe...

*t17 hits volks mine in front of sandbags that have shrek infantry*

T17 Player: Oh noes!
Wehr Player: Now you're mine fool!

Problem solved, you have the bait and the capability to disable t17s, but you're not using them.  Same can be said about Greyhounds, they got mines that they can plant anywhere very quickly, and placing them on roads and key points (like Axis players putting mines in craters to trick the allies into thinking there are no more mines) are all viable tactics that are very cost effective for what they do.

[Baine]

And what if the t17 runs at your pak and shrek squad and knocks them out of cover?  I don't believe that thing can knock down stone walls and the like, and you can always build tank traps too near the bags to prevent that and mess with its pathing, and KNOWING he will knock your cover out, put the dang volk mine in front of the sandbag, you have your easy bait there.

First of all, i mean "pushing" them out of cover, not crushing the cover. Second now you bring in another unit, volks with volk mine, or tanktraps. How do you manage that, everywhere you move with your pak you set up defenses like that?

And Mysthalin, you are talking about stormtrooper doubleschrecks, very common in every wehr army... Ofcourse stormtroopers have easy pickings against all vehicles if they get the first shot. We are talking about mobile AT like grens with schreck.

[Mysthalin]

There are as many companies capable to field stormtroopers as there are companies capable to field T17s.
Since when are stormtroopers immobile?
With a certain T1 called Blitzkrieg, they become VERY mobile .

The problem is, the people who are playing wehr are not thinking creatively at all. LVS has been around for more than a month now, and people are STILL using the same kind of companies they used 2 months ago, when LVS was not yet "invented". They're just sitting there, sucking their thumbs and crying buff/nerf, rather than adapting or, come to think of it, thinking at all.
The mod's changing : that's what patches do, why shouldn't your company change as the patches do?

[lionel23]

In that example, yeah sure the axis have more units for the price equivalent (a single tiger cannot be easily countered by a single rifle squad, for example).

You're talking about then if it's going to be 1-on-1 then, an Anti-infantry specialist vehicle against an infantry unit with AT capabilities... it's still infantry and should lose one on one in such a situation unless maybe in a house or on heavy cover.

Given the gren/pak scenario, put the grens behind cover a medium distance away from the pak, pak faces t17.  T17 rushes around pak, tries to flank, grens provide covering fire for rear (and the pak would be in cover).  T17 goes for shreks, pak turns around and covers grens who are supposedly being bumped... dead T17.  Overlapping fields of fire, I do the same with AT guns and handheld AT to great effect, did it with my luft company too, you create overlapping lines of defense for fast vehicles going in and now they're cut off, he tries to run then you preemptively turn the pak guy, nail him in the ass as he runs for more damage, grens and pak did their job.

Or, have a single P4 there, counters T17 immediately and forces it to leave the immediate engagement area, like how a M3 halftrack has no chance against a Tiger tank.

Other super cheap counters?  Single dummy volks with mines, by itself boom, cripples the t17, or engineers tanktrapping areas to stop any vehicles from coming in and bumping them OR any other unit out of cover, any tank will stop it, overlapping paks can stop it, goliaths in cover and 'feigning' to run your men away into the goliath and BOOM.  There are many ways to counter this guy, just like how allies have many ways to counter heavy tanks... sticky bombs, ATGs, mass handheld AT, tank destroyers, artillery (in a pinch), mines, stun, button down, piats, 17lbs, real tanks (firefly, mass upgun shermans).

If you're relying on using old methods or refuse to adapt to a new threat (ie the mass BAR rifle company, the wehr company with nothing but lmg42s), then yeah you should be punished by what counters you.  As Mys said while I am posting this and I have reiterated, there are many mobile and immobile ways to counter this, doctrine or non-doctrine!  As they always say, where there is a will, there's a way, and you just got to find a way is all that works with your company (whether it be with superior armor doctrine, stormtrooper doctrine, nondoctrine units like mass volks or a single pio squad, bunker with shreks in it, etc), the resources are at your disposable. 

[Draken]

Only succes about this thread is that it wasn't locked after twos rage post and it changed into some kind of constructive balance discussion.

It's pointless imo, but keep it going if you really like arguing in something pointless.

[CrazyWR]

Seriously, just use a tank to kill them, its not hard.  They can't penetrate any Axis tank often enough to kill it before it dies.

As for PE, treadbreaker works pretty well...2 forms of AT far enough apart so the t17 can't do a figure 8 will win...its not unbeatable...

[gamesguy2]

There is a rule in coh, if you start listing mines as your main counter against a unit, that unit is OP.

Mines are the counter to every unit in the game and should never be brought up when discussing unit balance.

[CrazyWR]

God stop crying, I play both sides and t17s are fine, doctrine buffs is what made you think that they are OP, without any doctrine unlocks they are fine but compared to other wehr buffs you shouldn't complain, doctrines are reworked and there is new patch coming so stop this rage balancing.

this

[GeneralGlacko]

There is no hard counter to T17s atm. Need faust fixed asap.

YESSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSSS SSSS

[lionel23]

Gamesguy I think you're taking my post out of context, I'm saying there are many counters to the T17, mines being one of the many things he could easily do if he's being pushed, as Hellcats got anti-vehicle mines too and volks get them for cheap and can horde many, many of them.

And this isn't vCOH, this is EIR, don't compare the two there as what I've learned from the rules when discussing balance.

[gamesguy2]

Gamesguy I think you're taking my post out of context, I'm saying there are many counters to the T17, mines being one of the many things he could easily do if he's being pushed, as Hellcats got anti-vehicle mines too and volks get them for cheap and can horde many, many of them.

No, there is only one thing that counters T17s reliable for cost, tanks, thats it.  Paks don't do it, shreks don't do it.  Mines are not an argument.  Your one pak+one shrek argument has been conclusively proven false in the tests Baine and Smokaz did.  Even charging a pak+shrek from the front, the T17 won half the time. 

And this isn't vCOH, this is EIR, don't compare the two there as what I've learned from the rules when discussing balance.

Where did I say anything about vCOH?  Its a rule in COH, mines counter everything and is not a balance argument, period.

[lionel23]

No need to be a jerk about it Gamesguy, I would like to see where this 'rule' is if you're so persistant about it.

And shreks counter T17s I find reliably enough, nothing is 100% in this game, like an M10 can fail to kill a P4.  Not likely to happen too much but it can happen.  So I don't know where you're making that up.  Paks do it just fine also, shreks do it, mines do it (oh god mines!), goliaths and defensive structures do it, using cover and buildings does it, and yes even TANKS counter vehicles, oh noes!  I have yet to see from your argument when so many examples and others have said otherwise in this thread.

[gamesguy2]

No need to be a jerk about it Gamesguy, I would like to see where this 'rule' is if you're so persistant about it.

Its simple, other than a few mine detecting units(extremely rare), what doesn't mines counter?   Everything can be countered much easier with mines.

Bringing mines into a balance argument is just not done.  Because they are extremely situational, requires prep time, and counters every single unit in the game.  Plasma shield shermans?  Mine it.  Boys AT rifles insta-gibbing infantry squads?  Mine it.   American officer killing two squads of infantry alone?   Mine it.  There is almost nothing that can't be solved with mines.

And shreks counter T17s I find reliably enough, nothing is 100% in this game, like an M10 can fail to kill a P4.  Not likely to happen too much but it can happen.  So I don't know where you're making that up.  Paks do it just fine also, shreks do it, mines do it (oh god mines!), goliaths and defensive structures do it, using cover and buildings does it, and yes even TANKS counter vehicles, oh noes!  I have yet to see from your argument when so many examples and others have said otherwise in this thread.

http://forums.europeinruins.com/index.php?topic=12338.msg210104;topicseen#new

There's no point arguing about T17s in this thread, goto that thread for T17s debate.

[Smokaz]

Nothing is 100%, but at what % does a intended hardcounter become a softcounter? What if I told you the t17 won half of the time, even when conditions were perfect for the pak+shrek? Nobody wants the t17 nerfed into uselessness, I think its a great unit that rewards micro. But it needs to die to its intended counters for pop, it needs to lose to specialist at units if they are put to optimal use against a optimally used t17. And right now, it just doesnt.

As for Rikis question, the shrek was positioned normally next to the pak.

Also, note that this is aimed at t17 vs Wehr. PE is fine against the t17. And it's targeting the lack of a mobile counter to the t17 and the fact that the less mobile counters underperform against the t17.

Upgun accuracy versus the t17's armor type could be tuned but it would affect the m8 unfairly, imo.

[CrazyWR]

Smokaz, how far apart were the shrek and the pak, there's no way they should have been close enough for you to both push the shrek squad and circle the pak...

[Tymathee]

why is it I, a mainly allied player that has no problem against T17 spam? Maybe you need to just change your tactics, heck, I welcome t17 spam, it means less tanks therefore my panther can run free

[Killer344]

You are talking about the PE Tym, sigh.