EIRR Balance

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[Akranadas]

Hey Guys, I just want to get some ideas on what areas of EIRR that you feel need to be worked on.

Now, this isn't a discussion thread. Just tell me in simple detail, What is unbalance and how it could be balanced. Thats it

[lionel23]

We talking about anything in EIRR?  Like anything goes including units, doctrines, tutorial, interface, game modes.... etc?  Or you looking to narrow it down to anything specific (unit focus, doctrine balance only..)?

[Killer344]

Unit/Doctrines, this is the Balance Forum not Related Discussion.

[wildsolus]

Make fausts do the correct version of dmg to t17

Nerf ferocity/IA... limit uses? not sure what the limit is on ferocity atm

Nerf armor AP rounds on hellcats. not sure how to balance it..maybe make it so you can't click it while in cloak? lol

1 super heavy per company, 2 heavies (tiger/pershing) per company.

[lionel23]

Hmm just what we feel needs to be worked on in terms of units and doctrines only?

Then this would be my most pressing list:

Problem: Ferocity + Zeal = Single man gren rambo able to kill 3 squads of infantry or 3 tanks with a single lmg/shrek, respectively
Solution: Nerf or non-stacking buff to prevent machine gun rate fire of shreks or insane damage output, or even a penalty like increased receiving accuracy to make it not so godly.

Problem: M10 lackluster performance, either too hard to keep alive and short range and thus vet, and its poor performance against countering tanks
Solution: Take less damage from tanks perhaps?  Or maybe if its accuracy on the move wasn't so crap or if it wouldn't misfire constantly then maybe it could stand a chance against things.  Any small fix to this would solve any of the aforementioned problems.

Problem: Rapid fire, sniping Panthers against Tank Counters
Solution: I believe this is based off using Blitzkrieg where the panther just rapid fires and can single-handedly take on mass Tank Destroyers, ATGs, and Infantry AT squads with impunity, and with Germany's superior armor there isn't anything remotely like that on the Allies that can counter it via armor or firepower.  Perhaps add a decreased accuracy debuff while it gets a reload buff?

Problem: Pool Cost adjustments needed for certain units
Solution: I'll bring this up just some examples where pool costs need to be addressed, as they prevent a few units from making appearances.  Like why is the American officer at 3 and Rangers are 4?  Is the officer 3/4th a ranger squad?  Same thing with British officers, it's hard to field and rely on them when 1 officer = 15 men.  Churchill MK6 price is insane for a doctrine tier unlock.  Croc church I can understand at 5, but a Mk6 which is only a 75mm sherman which bounces shells off a P4 being the equivalent in pool cost as a Firefly?  With Royal Engineers that's 1/4th your total pool cost.  So basically solution is adjust pool costs?

Problem: Unit viability/usefulness (Stuart, Tetrarch, M8 Greyhound, etc)
Solution: Currently these units are too expensive and huge ammo sinks when a cheaper, more survivable, more effective unit exists (why take a Stuart if it cant dodge and can't kill infantry so well when a Staghound can do it and has a better chance to survive and gain vet?).  Why should say I, as an infantry player, take the greyhound when it just dies in 2 hits and I'm given no other choices for light vehicles really?  Buffs needed to some things (50mm Puma, Greyhound, are good examples) to make them more attractive and viable for player armies.

Problem: Lack of quality American support teams to counter Axis Teams
Solution: American mortar doesn't get range equalizing bonus till vet 3!  Allied HMG doesn't get need suppression till Vet 3, whileas axis units can walk in and own it head on (best example yet was when an Axis LMG team pinned a deployed .30cal on a stone wall and proceeded to rape the 3 man crew).  Currently allies support teams are jokes and it's better to rely on more general infantry, light vehicles, and tanks to do the work in a more brute force manner.  Vet 3 needs to be switched with Vet 1 (make Allied MGs get suppression first, more damage later; allied mortar needs range to not get owned hardcore by axis sniping mortar teams).

Problem: Axis end game armor compared to Allies
Solution: This could be related to the M10 issue up above, but as my friend and several newer and older players I play with say, they're sick and tired of mass heavy tanks (ie after killing 6 P4s, the enemy team brings out a bunch of Panthers and Tigers/King Tigers, etc) that can easily chew up what remaining ATGs and the like.  US Tank destroyers are too paper thin unless you really protect the hellcat, Shermans are expensive ammo sinks to just properly deal with tanks, cromwell can't absorb shots too long though has a decent, fast firing gun, leaving only the firefly as the best mobile counter. Maybe paying for a health upgrade for Shermans or the introduction of that hopefully not TOO FAR AWAY Sherman jumbo could alleviate the allies need for a non-doctrine heavy tank.

Problem: Mass Axis Suppression weapons
Solution: Being almost instantly pinned by LMG grens, Stugs, Panthers, Panzers, and Halftracks is ridiculous.  I have suppression buffs from an Officer and a T1 and a halftrack or Stug zooms by and instantly suppresses rangers and riflemen, and then proceeds to run them over?  Or watching LMG squads pin riflemen and just laugh that they don't need HMG 42s because this has no deployment time and is more effective?  Now, I don't know if this is from Intensity or what, but it almost makes it mandatory to field pure rangers or airborne just to break the crazy suppression while Allied Tanks, halftracks, and MGs don't seem to do squat in the suppression war when they are already gimped in the range one (at least for MG weapons like teams and .50cals on vehicles).  When was the last time you saw the Sherman suppress a squad, while the staghound can do it much more easily?

Anyway, this is just a starter list of my thoughts, could be non-issues, could be issues most of the playerbase is having, who knows.  Just offering the main things that come to mind.

[Smokaz]

Americans

- Tune rr's versus support weapons (to stop them gibbing 42's from the front)
- Bring Vet 1 of airborne in line with other infantry (0.80 received damage is freaking crazy)
- Bring RR's up to 190 munitions
- Increase the price of skirts on the t17 to 85
- Remove any veterancy giving the t17 more dodge, use less received damage instead
- Remove the extra reload time the upgun sherman gets from the upgun upgrade
- Make stun grenades have normal pineapple range

Wehrmacht
- Put the slow effect of the terror officer on a timed ability
- Stop zeal/IA or zeal/Ferocity from stacking their cooldown modifier
- Increase p4 skirts to 80
- Decrease Stug skirt price to 45
- Decrease Stug mg price to 45
- Give geschutzwagon a base munition cost of 60, reduce fuel cost to 130
- Make precision strike a actual precision strike


British
- Stop CCT from affecting american tanks
- Stop LT from affecting american infantry
- Lower the price of "2 mortar
- Remove flank speed from the CCT
- Further tune tank shock values (should either only pin 1 squad or supress several)
- Make the 17 pounder non-doctrinal
- Reduce the munition cost of commandos to 150
- Shorten the recharge of the vickers machine gun's recharge time

PE
- Remove the slow effect from the hotchkiss CS
- Reduce the radius of panzer fear
- Remove accuracy bonus from Hunter Killer affecting Jagd

[o4b1]

concussion nades need a price increase to at least 35, if not 40 IMO, since they apparently do the same damage as a pineapple as well as stunning effect.

Edit: Any nerf to panzer fear should also be a nerf to bogged down.

[Mysthalin]

- RRs can only be "fixed" against support weapons by increasing their scatter angle. If so, they would need a severe boost in damage to make up for their sole advantage - low scatter.

- Zeal - halve the 2-man health regen, change the 1-man 0.25 cooldown modifier into a 0.75 one.

- Improve Pershing penetration against skirted P4s and StuGs.

- Improve the moving accuracy of both hotchkiss variants to 0.75.

- Reduce the penetration of the upgun hotchkiss so it at least sometimes bounces off pershing frontal armor.

- Improve the damage of the anti-infantry hotchkiss to 75 from 50, to account for it's lack of an MG when compared to the greyhound.

- Give the hotchkiss greyhound armour.

- Give the US T17 Stuart armour.

- Remove reload debuff on 76mm Sherman.

- Terror officer slow effect : remove completely, give it a 'increased recieved accuracy and damage' modifier to enemy infantry.

- Put the super-nebel barrage from terror to defensive.

- Improve firefly HP to 636 to match other shermans.

- Increase stormtrooper shreck price to 340.

I was recently pointed out to that the Hotchkiss CCT actually has built-in panzer fear on a cooldown.

I do believe that this should be either taken off the unit, or set to limited use(much like the smoke barrage for the CW CCT), considering that not only is it extremely cheap at 120 FU and just 8 popcap, but the global ability of Panzer Fear is actually a T3, 1 free use, 3 max. ability, while the Hotch CCT remains a T2!
 Not to mention the fact the Hotch CCT has yet another ability to buff it's tanks for a timed duration with an entire 15 extra range!


---Killer344: Double post.

[Pak88mm]

- terror officer slow nerf. make it activate with cooldown

- increase cost of oversupplied units

- nerf officer .45 rof. make it like wehr officer.

- tone down health gen on officers. it makes em like zombies coming back from death.

- give stug a worthwhile vet 3 bonus.

- zeal/ferocity combo is insane. I know its a T4 it can do with a bit of tone down. LMG vet 3 grens are just like old VCoH terminator falls lol......wish we still had those.

[spinn72]

- Decrease Penetration of Recoilless Rifles at long range or increase price by 15 munitions
- Remove Mine Flail for Churchill Mk VI
- Decrease effectiveness of Zeal/Ferocity combination
- Partially decrease effectivenes of Blitzkrieg, possibly decrease the speed bonus to tanks slightly

- Give the Cromwell command tank a debuff aura with pershings to decrease effectiveness, ie actually give it an aura at vet0 that's reload 1.1 (pershing only), thus making the pershing/CCT combo less effective.

- Increase price of Staghound MG to 100, Fix Staghound vet.

[TodlichPanther]

Hotchkiss low damage.

Increase damage slightly (20%).

allow more doctrine abilties to affect it, so it is more viable (telescopic sights).


Light At halftrack

decrease the cost of treadbreaker, 90 munitions is extortionate. Maybe down to 50-60.

Staghound

increase mg cost. not sure to what.

fix vet bug.

Assault/stun nades-need to be bug fixed.

that's all i can think of right now.

[Malgoroth]

Let's see if it's possible to be MORE biased!

I have an idea to improve balance...
 get this... the Wehrmacht should have to pay an extra 200 munitions PER UNIT to activate that unit's weapons. For instance... regular priced grens can't attack anything UNLESS you bought the 200 munition activation. Then they'd have to pay on top of that for LMGs and schrecks (which should probably cost PPs anyway). This would stop the Wehrmacht's OP bullshit unit spam.  

I sincerely hope the mods can pick out which ideas are good, and which ideas are just fucking stupid.

[EIRRMod]

Yep

Just asking for perspectives I believe.

[Tymathee]

Let's see if it's possible to be MORE biased!

I have an idea to improve balance...
 get this... the Wehrmacht should have to pay an extra 200 munitions PER UNIT to activate that unit's weapons. For instance... regular priced grens can't attack anything UNLESS you bought the 200 munition activation. Then they'd have to pay on top of that for LMGs and schrecks (which should probably cost PPs anyway). This would stop the Wehrmacht's OP bullshit unit spam. 

I sincerely hope the mods can pick out which ideas are good, and which ideas are just fucking stupid.

Yay lets be an asshole and totally go off topic and show how smart we think we are to shoot down everyone elses opinion.

they're just getting a general view of how people view things. I'm sure if one thing is being pointed out a lot, then they'll look at those closer but if its totally off base, then they'll ignore it.

[BigDick]

i would say before you can comment about doctrine stuff the new doctrine rework need to be released and maybe "tested"

in terms of units/upgrades

- recrewable support weapons (at guns, hmgs, mortars, nebel, howi) generally to cheap in term of resources and pop

- mortar pit still broken (unkillable by indirect fire an health "regen")

- brens to cheap

- tommis to cheap

- heavy tanks (including pershing and tiger) need a hardcap of 1 you are free to get shermans p4 stug m10... aditional

- T17 to cheap (needs fuel increase and mun increase for skirts)

- M8 need a look at maybe too

- quad needs pop increase (at least 7 pop)

- puma needs a pop increase too (same as quad)

- recoilless need price increase (+20 more mun)

- double shreks on storms need price increase (+20 more mun)

- shreks on grens need a price decrease (-20 mun)

- mp40/g43 needs price decrease (-5mun)

- panzerfaust need to be looked at (does almost no damage against light armor..maybe critical hits vs light armor increase too)

- ap rounds usage on at guns should be 2->3 price 50 mun

- rifleman price decrease (-5mp)

- sherman upgun to cheap (+10mun) .50cal could go down (-10mun)

- mg upgrade for P4 -10 mun too

- upgrades for stug need to be tuned down (skirts, mg)

i didnt want to comment to much on doctrines but

- american officer completely broken (easy to get 20 kills in a game)

- terror officer slow down needs to be tuned (maybe shorter range)

- commando sniper way to powerful

- tankshock broken

- churchill MK6 need to be 12 pop not 10

- churchill croc needs a pop (+1) and price increase

- actually pe needs a complete rework (should be discussed in an own topic) because currently they suck in eir environment (when you not getting 2 jagd and hope that your opponents run out of AT)

[lionel23]

Hey Guys, I just want to get some ideas on what areas of EIRR that you feel need to be worked on.

Now, this isn't a discussion thread. Just tell me in simple detail, What is unbalance and how it could be balanced. Thats it

Just to point out to others, Akr just wants to hear problem areas we have encountered and which we feel need to be worked on and if they are possible issues, as we can discuss the validity of these until the moon turns blue but he just needs to get to the root of the problem, not have 15+ pages on discussion for why person X is wrong or person Y is right, etc. 

Quick aside I've seen it and so have Computer and Ryeassean (sp?) who was my partner that game and unfortunately I didn't save the replay, but I still stand on LMGs being way too powerful against support weapons.  He found out the hard way what happens to a pinned, deploy mg team (they don't fire even though they don't lay down like infantry squads who are pinned).  Anyway, go ahead and post your 'balance issues', and remember Akr is just asking for your opinion from your experience, not a super in-depth analysis of your opinion which can be brought up in another thread discussion.

And Malgoroth, why don't you post a 'real' thread about balance issues for this topic and not just to just fill space that isn't constructive, I'm sure you have your own concerns you'd like aired out and can be looked at and examined by Akr and the rest of the devs from your own playing experience with EIRR, no?

[Mgallun74]

not much of a axis player, so will just say a few american stuffs


1.  All US Infantry with M1 Garand or Carbine should have a faster ROF than any axis bolt action rifle.. dont give me this crap its faster close in, that means i have to run in close which can be suicidal.

2.  M18, M10 and Upgun Shermans all should have the same penetration and Damage.. all these different numbers for stuff which performed pretty much the same is goofy.

3. Also, i think the upgun sherman should not cost mun, it should be more mp and more fuel...  its a completely different tank.


---Killer344: Double post.

[anthony210]

I agree,  make the upgun sherman a differant tank like the upgun Puma is, and make it cost a bit more MP and Fuel than the regular sherman.

[DisposableHero]

I would agree about axis support (mortar especially). The brit mortar is especially screwed in this regard. No sooner than it gets into a position to actually hit something, it can be counter-fired by whermact mortars safely out of range, or pe mortar halftracks that can get away.

Your only other source of indirect support comes from doctrinal offmaps or the Captain's FOO - which would have to have LOS. And get very close. And drops red smoke. And forces your Captain to sit there like a dumbass for several seconds calling the strike in and unable to do anything - including cancelling the strike and retreating. That's more than enough time for the Axis player to spot the smoke, register artillery inbound, push past your line and gimp the poor Cap before he can run off. I'm fine with the other limitations, but have something of a gripe with just how long it renders your Captain vulnerable.


---Killer344: removed reply to BigDick.

[Killer344]

Hey guys, 1 post per user please, keep it clear and simple.