Allied Grit

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[Mysthalin]

Now, as far as I am aware, Allied Grit will be one of the abilities that will stay with the US infantry tree after the doctrine rework.

Currently, it gives 15 percent more health to riflemen, and I personally believe that it is not worthy of it's T3 slot.

For US riflemen, 15 percent more health brings the per-man health from 55 to 63.25. This means that the most common small arms weapon, the Kar 98k still needs the exact same ammount of shots to kill one rifleman :

The grenadier K98 deals 15 damage per shot, with 4 shots dealing 60 damage. This puts the riflemen into the red health state, meaning that they will die on the 4th shot(most likely).


The Panzergrenadier K98 and G43 deal 12 damage per shot, with 4 shots dealing 48, and 5 shots dealing 60 damage. No matter what health the riflemen have, you need 5 shots to put the riflemen into the "red" state, where they have the biggest chance of death.

The volksgrenadier K98 deals 10 damage per shot, and it deals 50 damage in 5 shots. It is not yet enough to put the vanilla riflemen into the red status, and thus another shot is needed. So from 6 shots to kill.. we still remain at 6 shots to kill.


So, we have established that allied grit does NOT help in the most likely case of an infantry firefight (rifles versus rifles).


With tanks dealing a minimum of 87.5 damage per shot, it is pointless to discuss the increase of survivability for riflemen if they engage the most common WM/PE tanks - the P4, Hetzer and StuG while having allied grit. The hotchkiss deals 50 damage per shot, so it needs 2 shots to kill riflemen, no matter whether they have allied grit or not.

Survivability increase against tanks : 0.

The Axis mortars(all variants) deal 36 damage per shot. 36/63.25 is 53 percent damage. This means that the riflemen will not be put into yellow health in one shot(60 percent damage needed), and they will not be subject to the 50 percent chance of death they are afflicted by from the mortar at yellow health.

Survivability increase against mortars : No more chance to lose members on the very first dead-on shot to hit the riflemen.

Automatic weapons generally need 1 more shot to kill each riflemen with this buff, which is roughly a 0.1 second increase in the lifetime of each rifleman, meaning it will take an entire extra half of a second to kill a rifle squad if it is engaged with automatic weaponry. I do not think this is an increase particularly worthy of noting.


Now, if we compare this T3 to other T3s that improve survivability, we will see why this T3 is so deficient in comparison.

The Blitz T3 that reduces recieved accuracy on ALL infantry, including stormtroopers, helps survive not only standard small arms fire, but also increases the survivability of the infantry against snipers, tanks and even random anti-tank gun shots.

The Armor T3 that improves the health of M10s and M18s brings their health up by 35 percent, meaning a 140 health increase overall, puting their health pools at 540.
It means 1 more hit until death from a marder (3 shots for 450 damage to 4 shots for 600).
It means 1-2 more shot hitting until death from a pak (1st shot 144, subsequent shots 115 damage mean for death at 3-4 shots against a vanilla M10, 5 against a buffed M10)
It means 1 more shot hitting from a Panzer 4 (5 shots for vanilla death, 6 shots for buffed death).
And so on - it generally means surviving one more shot from every single AT source in the game.

I think the deficiency of a T3 that only really increases survivability from direct hitting mortar shots against quite mobile targets(riflemen) is quite apparent.

I would vote for the increase of this buff to +10-12.5 health, rather than a percentage increase to make it a T3 that is actually worth buying.

[Smokaz]

Allied grit needs to be better, thats for sure. It's a very weak buff for a tier 3. If it stays as a health increase, it should go up to around 28%, putting rifleman health at 70 Hp, allowing them to take that extra kar98 shot.

[Tymathee]

I've said this so many times....

[CrazyWR]

how does it compare with group zeal?

[Tymathee]

how does it compare with group zeal?

uh, group zeal is different as it's a per man kinda thing and it also addds other modifiers.

[Leafedge]

It might be more fun to just change the ability altogether. I think a slow health regen might be interesting. It'd have to be slower than the axis infantry (especially because of larger squad sizes), but it could alter your playstyle as allies and make the game more interesting. Just a thought. In general, things that make units more specialized or effective only in certain circumstances tend to be more fun than just direct buffs anyway. At least, that's my opinion.

Even if the devs would prefer to keep the health buff, 15% to a single stat on a single unit is pretty weak for a T3, even if it is one of the most common units in the allied army.

However, I'd like to point out that in most circumstances, a lot of that math won't hold true, Myst. Most firefights (especially with rifles) take place in some kind of cover, which affects the damage of weapons. Explosives such as the mortar and tank rounds also have AOE damage, which decreases with range. All that said, this T3 is still in need of a buff.

[Groundfire]

I've said this so many times....

You've said it? I made a balance post 3 months ago and was told to shut up because it was good as it is.

Top that!

[RikiRude]

I think the 15% might be ok if they added in engs and rangers as well.

[Tymathee]

I think the 15% might be ok if they added in engs and rangers as well.

+1, just having it on rifles sucks. I think in the new version engies get it.

[Sharpshooter824]

Thats still really worthless tho, because it doesn't help rifles survive another shot, it needs to go up to 25-30% tbh

[tankspirit668]

Now, as far as I am aware, Allied Grit will be one of the abilities that will stay with the US infantry tree after the doctrine rework.

Currently, it gives 15 percent more health to riflemen, and I personally believe that it is not worthy of it's T3 slot.

For US riflemen, 15 percent more health brings the per-man health from 55 to 63.25. This means that the most common small arms weapon, the Kar 98k still needs the exact same ammount of shots to kill one rifleman :

.....

All this theoretical math here. You estimate every shot is hitting its target. A 15 % boost of a thing is much. We change the metagame here, shifting it in another direction under circumstances.  How much should this boost the infantry ? Should it really  make the infantry more resistant to tank fire ? Will the overall ( axis included ) game experience benefit from it ?

[RikiRude]

Although zeal and allied grit work much different, couldn't we agree that zeal is much more powerful than allied grit?

[Sharpshooter824]

Zeal is x10 more effective as Allied Grit rofl, think about it, a 2 man volks squad with zeal and maybe some medkits will pay for itself easy, probably kill double what it would cost.. allied grit really doesnt do a thing and its a T3!

[tankspirit668]

Zeal is x10 more effective as Allied Grit rofl, think about it, a 2 man volks squad with zeal and maybe some medkits will pay for itself easy, probably kill double what it would cost.. allied grit really doesnt do a thing and its a T3!

It gives every SINGLE Rifleman a 15 % Health Boost it can make a difference. I don`t know where you get ur nmbers from ( 10 times as effective and so on ). I personally consider Group Zeal OP atm, so I would not compare it to that and expect it to get changed when  new doctrine rework is live.

[Smokaz]

Zeal gives vastly superior bonuses on units that to begin with are stronger, so any comparison between Allied Grit and Zeal will just make Grit look even worse than it is. Blob Zeal is a better comparison, as the PGs are just as crappy as rifles health-wise and its also a T3, and finally not considered OP like zeal is.

The blob zeal bonuses are extremely tricky to benefit from. Hardcore allied supression like strafes or vickers will be ably to harshly punish a group zeal blobber.

At 15 PE guys blobbed together, you get the same HEALTH bonuse as allied grit.(15%) Thats a minimum of 4 squads called in (20 pop) to benefit from it as theres no way to field less than 4 squads and still have 15 guys.

At 15 PE guys you also get: a health regen on these squads, and a 0.85 received damage modifier.

So group zeal works differently and have different requirements than grit but also gives stronger bonuses.

If you want health and rifle-blob capability, cohesion is the way to go. It also help attempts to negate one of the prime disadvantages of blobbing, supression.

As it stands, grit seems weak even compared to blob zeal although they are hard to compare. Health bonuses have to be fairly large or on "dodging" units to truly be powerful, unlike received accuracy or received damage bonuses.

[Mysthalin]

All this theoretical math here. You estimate every shot is hitting its target. A 15 % boost of a thing is much. We change the metagame here, shifting it in another direction under circumstances.  How much should this boost the infantry ? Should it really  make the infantry more resistant to tank fire ? Will the overall ( axis included ) game experience benefit from it ?

Read my post again. It clearly shows that the 15 percent buff is completely worthless, helping only against being hit by a mortar shell. The fact that in practice not every shot hits does not add anything to the discussion, as the health bonus does not affect it.

Actually, Group Zeal has been buffed to 1.25 percent per man(I aired my opinion on not doing it loudly). So at just 8 men blobbed up (2 squads, 8 pop), you are getting 10.4 percent more health and 9.6 percent less recieved damage and a health regen. Meaning a total increase of 22.1 percent in health, making this T3 much more powerful than the T4 cohesion, which only gives 1.6 percent per level of health. With the 0.992 modifier per man towards suppresion, at 24 men you will have a total of 0.824 recieved suppresion, hardly helping you at all from suppression.

[Pak88mm]

yeah the 15% health is nothing. But then comes the issue of increasing and combining it with cohesion. Theoratically it can make riflemen the highest HP unit in game thought still a shitty one lol. Either ways it needs a boost in health and something else.

[bbsmith]

To use group zeal all of your PGs would have to be within a radius of 20. Cohesion is all Infantry and all support teams in a radius of 1000.

[Mysthalin]

What are the odds of you having 4-5 infantry squads spread out and being microed accordingly as oposed to them being used in one assault force spread out across 1 screen, anyway?

Even if stacked with cohesion at it's maximum of 50 percent buff, it is 94.85 health per rifleman. Stormies have 95 health per man.

Pzgrens with the same ammount of men in a blob with the T3 have 102 health per man + regen + soldier armor, and it can still go up beyond that.

Just for the record :
A lonely squad that has group zeal gives itself the following bonuses :
0.96 recieved damage, 1.038 health + regen. 8 percent health buff + regen.
Goes from 55 health to 59.4 health.

2 squads that have group zeal give themselves the following bonuses :
1.09 health, 0.915 recieved damage + regen.  19.1 percent health buff + regen.
Goes from 55 health to 65.45 health.

I think it is safe to asume that 2 squads of panzergrenadiers being used together within 10 metres of each other at any given point of the game, and in any callin is pretty much a given, and it should be looked at as the "most commonly seen" buff to the panzergrenadiers. Further calculations are just to illustrate the superiority of Group Zeal in comparison to Allied Grit/Cohesion.

3 squads that have group zeal give themselves the following bonuses :
1.146 health, 0.87 recieved damage + regen. 31.7 percent health buff + grenadier vet 1 regen.
Goes from 55 health to 72.4 health.

4 squads that have group zeal give themselves the following bonuses :
1.204 health, 0.82 recieved damage + regen. 46.8 percent health buff + regen.
Goes from 55 health to 80.74 health.

5 squads (20 popcap) that have group zeal give themselves the following bonuses :
1.266 health, 0.77 recieved damage + regen. 64.4 percent health buff + double vet 1 grenadier regen.
Goes from 55 health to 90.42 health.

4 squads (20 popcap) of riflemen that have both cohesion AND allied grit give themselves the following bonuses :
1.68 health, 0.82 recieved suppression.
Goes from 55 health to 92.4 health.
I believe it is fair to assume that the 0.82 recieved suppression is about as useful as the regen - depends on personal taste.

Why should a combination of a T3 AND a T4 be only barely equal to just a T3 from another faction?

[tankspirit668]

What are the odds of you having 4-5 infantry squads spread out and being microed accordingly as oposed to them being used in one assault force spread out across 1 screen, anyway?

On fact is you have to form to keep them together to get this buff, which makes it more vulnerable to Weapons of mass surpression and or artillery fire.

Even if stacked with cohesion at it's maximum of 50 percent buff, it is 94.85 health per rifleman. Stormies have 95 health per man.

it`s stackable, you have this buff on any SINGLE Rifleman. You have to choice to blob them and get these buffs or to spread them. You are more flexible with the mentioned allied buffs - another pro the buffs you mentioned. Don`t you think that a combination, of doctrine abiliies buffing certain things up to 50 % is bad for the overall gameplay ? I personally think so. A stacked buff up to 50 % is changing a lot regarding metagameplay, i think even too much.

Pzgrens with the same ammount of men in a blob with the T3 have 102 health per man + regen + soldier armor, and it can still go up beyond that.

Yes but you have to blob, YOU have not other choice then as an axis player. And your buffs die with your men Percent by percent. Another Point for the stacking allied buffs.

Doctrines are being reworked and i personally hope that the Group Zeal gets a nerf along with the stacking buff of allied grid and cohesion. A stacking buff buffing like  50 % health is buffing too much. Doctrines are in the rework, we are discussing the past and he present here, but hopefully not the future.