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Author Topic: Cost System should be reworked  (Read 53874 times)
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Nijo Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 625



« Reply #180 on: October 22, 2009, 05:20:36 am »

i thinks the current system feels nice.

But smokaz got some points in that.

The only thing wich is just a joke in my eyes are all range modifiyer due doctrins ^^

they just totaly change the balance.
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #181 on: October 22, 2009, 06:21:40 am »

Ok, count up my example within 1 minute WITHOUT using a calculator, or a piece of paper.

Failed? Good job.

My point is that you don't need to use paper and a calculator to pre-plan your company at least slightly right now (for instance, you have 570 MP left, you know you can still buy 3 rifle coys or 5 engineer squads).


What other logical barriers come from this system?

It would give a lot of coding work for whoever has to improve the launcher at the time(most likely lucipher, who is already extremely busy with real life).
It would completely rework the balance of the game - rebuilding the cost system from scratch would not only be place for dozens of possible mistakes, it would also be an immense ammount of work for the devs to balance them at least acceptably.
It would give much more work to the server. The need to recalculate all companies would put a lot of strain on it, and if you believe the lag gets bad sometimes, you could be looking to intense lag 24/7.
What about decimals? How would they be rounded up? Units that end with a 5 in their cost would be at a severe disadvantage if it rounded up, and at a severe advantage if it rounded down. You're not actually implying we should turn to company resources in the milions just so we could ignore decimals?

Not to mention that the problems arise not from units being easy to spam, but because some doctrine buffs are too strong(zeal, raid assault, improved barrels, current AB elite). Fix either the units, or the doctrines that make them OP, not reinvent the bicycle.

And the solution is simple as hell - PP costs to units when they're being spammed. I haven't once seen a 25 airborne/stormie company this war. They're more than affordable MP wise(7500 MP for all of them). Yet, nobody spams them to such numbers.
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Smokaz Offline
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Posts: 11418



« Reply #182 on: October 22, 2009, 06:50:29 am »

Storm spam sucks cause theres no T4 buffing their direct combat ability
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 06:54:14 am by Smokaz » Logged

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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #183 on: October 22, 2009, 06:53:06 am »

Lightning War/Conviction? Best buffs you need for the ever faithfull storm.

I still haven't seen or heard of a 25 airborne coy yet. Probably the 72 PPs for the units alone feeling a bit too hefty.
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tankspirit668 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129


« Reply #184 on: October 22, 2009, 09:04:45 am »

Ok, count up my example within 1 minute WITHOUT using a calculator, or a piece of paper.

Failed? Good job.

My point is that you don't need to use paper and a calculator to pre-plan your company at least slightly right now (for instance, you have 570 MP left, you know you can still buy 3 rifle coys or 5 engineer squads).


What other logical barriers come from this system?

It would give a lot of coding work for whoever has to improve the launcher at the time(most likely lucipher, who is already extremely busy with real life).
It would completely rework the balance of the game - rebuilding the cost system from scratch would not only be place for dozens of possible mistakes, it would also be an immense ammount of work for the devs to balance them at least acceptably.
It would give much more work to the server. The need to recalculate all companies would put a lot of strain on it, and if you believe the lag gets bad sometimes, you could be looking to intense lag 24/7.
What about decimals? How would they be rounded up? Units that end with a 5 in their cost would be at a severe disadvantage if it rounded up, and at a severe advantage if it rounded down. You're not actually implying we should turn to company resources in the milions just so we could ignore decimals?

Not to mention that the problems arise not from units being easy to spam, but because some doctrine buffs are too strong(zeal, raid assault, improved barrels, current AB elite). Fix either the units, or the doctrines that make them OP, not reinvent the bicycle.

And the solution is simple as hell - PP costs to units when they're being spammed. I haven't once seen a 25 airborne/stormie company this war. They're more than affordable MP wise(7500 MP for all of them). Yet, nobody spams them to such numbers.

Theres a right way and an easy way to do things cost system does need some adjustements, the whole  unit pool has to be replaced by the cost multiplier system, unit pool costs of each unit have to be replaced by its cost modifier. This is all caused by a bad design idea first place.

Yes things have to be rebalanced, but this time it can be balanced. At the moment you cannot balance spam. To speak in extremes to make it visible: if most efficent / cost efficent unit, which is therefore spammed. So it gets an increased pricing or it`s unit pool pop. Then the unit is no longer used at all propably , because it`s not cost efficient. So another unit is then probably the most efficent / cost efficient unit and gets a price increase and a unit pool pop increase and is then no longer used, because it`s maybe longer used at all. So in the end all better units have to go up in pricing or and in unit availability pool costs. Which leaves probably a whole faction as a whole nearly useless or it is argued that a unit needs a price decrease again and then the spiral begins from the start. There is no way to find balance with this system, it`s not balancing itself.

Concerning the Server Load, I don`t know if the Client is able to cache things before , so the server is just used when you hit the save button on your company build screen, but it should. And to the Server Load Problematic if the devs really decide to implement this here , but fear they cannot, because of load problems: I`m working in IT business and can provide some server for some services Grin.

Haven`t hought about decimals, yet as some other things, but that`s just something you have to think about when it`s actually implemented, let`s be extreme - you will loose one point of each ressource  per units max if every rounding is to your disadvantage. So rounding up and down according how you had learnt it in school will do the trick. Nobody has stated to want to  change the ressource pool at all and millions would be a little too much.

Doctrines are a part of the problem, make it worse. Why U think the system cannot be balanced was stated in paragraph 2 of this thread entry .

There are high level players swimming in PP, needing it only for off maps, so it`s not really costing them anything. The reason you have to pay only for it when you purchase a squad makes units that die more rarely (are harder to kill) still a very interesting PP investing object, because you have to "PAY" for it only when  you purchase a unit. So something you pay only right after the purchase and all other usages are free from then on ( like doctrines) are not a counterweight and can not balance things out.

And yes nobobody I could think of  spams them in these numbers currently, but if  players could they would- or if someone really wants to  ( have enough PP floating around -  remember vEIR Cheesy), but still elite infantry in general can be seen in large numbers on the battlefields.
 
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #185 on: October 22, 2009, 10:20:18 am »

Quote
There are high level players swimming in PP

To quote the devs from like 20 threads now - a problem due to the war having taken 3 times longer than it should of.

Quote
And yes nobobody I could think of  spams them in these numbers currently, but if  players could they would

Exactly. They can't, so they don't. Seems like the current system is working.

If a unit is just cost effective enough, it's balanced - noone tells you to double nerf a unit if it's just slightly too cost effective(look at the T17/stag, they both were nerfed in "phases", and not instant huge nerfs, resulting in much better perspective on the units).

And really, the current system is great. It doesn't really alllow you to go into absolute extremes, while maintaining good flexibility on your companies. Sure, it gets spammyish with certain doctrines and units being too powerful, but it's not due to those units costing to cheap - it's due to the doctrinal choises being way too good. And with the doctrine rework, it'll all be fixed, trust me on that. If not, further nerfing/buffing accordingly will eventually do it.

Remember that perfect balance is impossible to achieve. Even in chess/checkers, one side starts first, thus offsetting the balance Wink.
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Two Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2079


« Reply #186 on: October 22, 2009, 10:27:41 am »

Yet if they know its a problem why has the war been reset Shocked
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Mysthalin Offline
Tired King of Stats
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Posts: 9028


« Reply #187 on: October 22, 2009, 10:35:39 am »

Ask the devs? It's intended to reset with the patch, afaik.
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Two Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 2079


« Reply #188 on: October 22, 2009, 10:39:06 am »

That patch was intended to be out weeks ago :p
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tankspirit668 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129


« Reply #189 on: October 22, 2009, 12:12:07 pm »


To quote the devs from like 20 threads now - a problem due to the war having taken 3 times longer than it should of.

Exactly. They can't, so they don't. Seems like the current system is working.

If a unit is just cost effective enough, it's balanced - noone tells you to double nerf a unit if it's just slightly too cost effective(look at the T17/stag, they both were nerfed in "phases", and not instant huge nerfs, resulting in much better perspective on the units).

And really, the current system is great. It doesn't really alllow you to go into absolute extremes, while maintaining good flexibility on your companies. Sure, it gets spammyish with certain doctrines and units being too powerful, but it's not due to those units costing to cheap - it's due to the doctrinal choises being way too good. And with the doctrine rework, it'll all be fixed, trust me on that. If not, further nerfing/buffing accordingly will eventually do it.

Remember that perfect balance is impossible to achieve. Even in chess/checkers, one side starts first, thus offsetting the balance Wink.

The swimming in PP is a problem of this overlong war, okay. But it shows the system is not balancing itself, with all the issues i stated also. The current system works against very extreme forms of spam yes, but not against all forms and it does not establish a counterweight to doctrine abilities or just abusing OPness of one Unit by spam effectefely.

In a system which balances itself, it does not matter how long a war is fought, e.g. .  If a problem like that aises it just shows that the system is somehow flawed from its design.

Of couse you can make adjustements, be it unit statistics or changing the cost or availibility system in phases system, with a certain aim. But what do you want to accompish with these changes ? At one time  UNit C / Unit D  are "spammed" like hell, so hey get nerfed or a unit pool pop increase  or a cost increase whatever. Afer that it won`t probably not used that mutch at all, instead another unit will become most / cost efficent ) and is spammed.      

So in the end you can just give every ( cost ) effective unit a price increase.  
Making a faction considered underpowered. I repeat it again you cannot balance things in the state it is. PPs don`t work as a balance system at all it is broken, imho.  

It`s a fact that some units are more effective than others and are used in very large quantities. And the current doctrine system makes things worse.  Shure this is not chess, but this here is currently not balancable at all, nor will you ever be able to balance it as good as chess, after all I`m  ( hoping ) im a realist.
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 12:17:07 pm by tankspirit668 » Logged
MonthlyMayhem Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 164


« Reply #190 on: October 22, 2009, 01:31:51 pm »

Who's swimming in PP? I for sure am not. Its not a problem either.

Like demon has pointed out its being fixed next patch without this ridiculous cost system.
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lionel23 Offline
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Posts: 1854


« Reply #191 on: October 22, 2009, 01:58:51 pm »

+1 for Mayhem  Smiley
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tankspirit668 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129


« Reply #192 on: October 22, 2009, 03:03:48 pm »

Who's swimming in PP? I for sure am not. Its not a problem either.

Like demon has pointed out its being fixed next patch without this ridiculous cost system.

Well I do neither, but somebody posted a bug that there`s a problem with the display of  PP Points, it doesn`t go beyond 99. So I  guess some people have.

This will fix the problem with making some units more (cost) efficent, it`s a step in the right direction, but not solving the whole problem, but it`s a step in the riht direction.
But for reasons i stated it`s still not balancable.
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Demon767 Offline
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190



« Reply #193 on: October 22, 2009, 03:17:00 pm »

theres no bug at 99

your reasons and system are irrelevant. sorry to be blunt.
applaud you for trying though
« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 03:20:31 pm by Demon767 » Logged


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tankspirit668 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129


« Reply #194 on: October 22, 2009, 07:07:23 pm »

theres no bug at 99

your reasons and system are irrelevant. sorry to be blunt.
applaud you for trying though

We ll i read about the bug in the forums, I don`t know if it`s there.

Of course is a system that is not implemented and will probably not be implementet absolulutely irrelevant. But nobody is telling anything, how the issues I`ve stated are addressed in any way by the current system. In fact, so I believe, they are not. It`s alright to be blunt, but that`s also offtopic. Promoting changes that will change the whole game render loved company builds impossible is not well accepted here.

But that are no arguments and I saw very few counter arguments in this discussion here, what is a pitty. At least there will be more likely a change about Doctrine Abilities and it`s Effectiveness, granted for free, what is a good thing, but addresses only a part of the Problems of this System.

I`m give it my best shot, because postings like Unit A is OP!!!! won`t change nothing about the retarded design of this system it will just make that  Unit B  takes its place Cheesy. But I guess it`s more fun to fiddle with the symptoms than to change it .

« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 07:15:02 pm by tankspirit668 » Logged
tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #195 on: October 22, 2009, 07:31:06 pm »

Um.... I currently have 565 PP

I noticed reinforcements are 999... I just might make it...lol
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Akranadas Offline
Honoured Member
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Posts: 6906


« Reply #196 on: October 22, 2009, 08:50:06 pm »

Ha, you can't get it anyway; its block.

I have 2565 PPs Cheesy
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tank130 Offline
Sugar Daddy
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Posts: 8889


« Reply #197 on: October 22, 2009, 09:06:17 pm »

That's it!!!!!

Next time I donate to OMG
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tankspirit668 Offline
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129


« Reply #198 on: October 22, 2009, 09:40:08 pm »

Ha, you can't get it anyway; its block.

I have 2565 PPs Cheesy

Lololololololololololol , back on topic - why will he problem be solved  with next doctrine rework Akranadas ?

« Last Edit: October 22, 2009, 09:55:17 pm by tankspirit668 » Logged
Demon767 Offline
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190



« Reply #199 on: October 22, 2009, 10:32:28 pm »

omgs tankspirit, this system wont be used in the future, thats what ive been trying to tell you, suggesting to edit the system is irrelevant becuase this system wont be used
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