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Cost System should be reworked
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Topic: Cost System should be reworked (Read 56768 times)
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Baine
Steven Spielberg
Posts: 3713
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #140 on:
October 20, 2009, 10:37:28 am »
I'm studying math. It fails hard
Logged
MonthlyMayhem
EIR Veteran
Posts: 164
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #141 on:
October 20, 2009, 02:02:27 pm »
One question..why would you want to have a counterweight for doctrain buffs.. They're suppose to buff your army..
Logged
aka Maysauze/MrGamenWatch
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #142 on:
October 20, 2009, 07:20:06 pm »
Quote from: MonthlyMayhem on October 20, 2009, 02:02:27 pm
One question..why would you want to have a counterweight for doctrain buffs.. They're suppose to buff your army..
Because they make units more effective and more cost effective and pps are no cunterweight to that. It should be NO no brainer to max these units out , maybe til lyp pay some pps. PPs don`t work there. Units are more important than strategy atm here. And no end in sight.
EIR is and will be a history of spam and abuse if this is not fixed. Hardcaps just suck, PPs don`t work. Units can be buffed no Problem, the problem is the quantities you get / or you want to get then then. This is the reason why I did come up with the price increase after each purchase of a unit type. Everybody is just caring about his own company builds and his own units. A balance of the whole , a system balancing itself will not be created by that kind of discussion and that makes me sick. I lve EIR, but some people already say, and they are right IMHO, EIR is like Warcraft3 from the gamestyle perspective and I see It is heading that way. You can just have one company and to tweak your company every time according to the type of spam your facing just sucks and will do this mod no good. Instead the pricing should balance that out somehow. Spamming should be possible should be doable, but be not so cost effective like it is atm. In other words the battle of attrition should be fought by spammes and not by the spam "victim".
Quote from: MonthlyMayhem on October 19, 2009, 11:48:08 am
No cost multipliers. Paying PP is good enough. If people spam one unit, it'll have a weakness. Every company will pretty much look the same because they're going be going cost effective.. The availability system is fine how it is. People that loose say like... a ranger squad and their infantry say is at like -26, they're going to have to pay around 4 PP to replace that squad, and most games only give 8-10 PP.
That would not be the case, because then every company would look quite similar at the moment, because there are "things" ( Doctrine Choices + Units ) too, that are defenetly more cost effective than other "things". PPs don`t cut it like I said several times now as a counterweight.
«
Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 07:23:13 pm by tankspirit668
»
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puddin
EIR Veteran
Posts: 1701
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #143 on:
October 20, 2009, 07:39:14 pm »
tank do you notice a trend... Not one person supprts your arguments, Evgeryone is arguing against it.
I am not trying to be mean, Just stating the obvious, If the community got behind it would be something to consider, but your arguing against the community.... Not just a few ppl.
Logged
Puddin' spam
tm
Quote from: aeroblade56 on September 03, 2012, 04:46:14 pm
i cant really blame smokaz i mean playing against puddin is like trying to fight off breast cancer. You might win and do it and be a bad ass but you'll feel sick and mutilated forever.
Quote from: nikomas on September 04, 2012, 03:59:27 am
Puddin' spam
tm
is soulcrushing... what's hard to understand about that?
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #144 on:
October 20, 2009, 08:37:35 pm »
Quote from: puddin on October 20, 2009, 07:39:14 pm
tank do you notice a trend... Not one person supprts your arguments, Evgeryone is arguing against it.
I am not trying to be mean, Just stating the obvious, If the community got behind it would be something to consider, but your arguing against the community.... Not just a few ppl.
You are probably right, most do. But the overall criticism is overall not very well crafted, but I guess it`s a serious case of "I want my company build" and "everything is always fine like it is - really every time" instead of reason and a real desire to establish a cost and availiability system, reflecting more a ww2 scenario, rewarding variety of units and combined arms and last but not least make it possible to bring balance.
It just makes me sad, not for my company build, but for tis mod overall.
«
Last Edit: October 20, 2009, 08:39:18 pm by tankspirit668
»
Logged
Computer991
Donator
Posts: 1219
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #145 on:
October 20, 2009, 08:39:14 pm »
Quote from: tankspirit668 on October 20, 2009, 08:37:35 pm
Quote from: puddin on October 20, 2009, 07:39:14 pm
tank do you notice a trend... Not one person supprts your arguments, Evgeryone is arguing against it.
I am not trying to be mean, Just stating the obvious, If the community got behind it would be something to consider, but your arguing against the community.... Not just a few ppl.
You are probably right, most do. But I guess it`s a serious case of "I want my company build" and "everything is always fine like it is " instead of reason and a real desire to establish a cost and availiability system, reflecting more a ww2 scenario, rewarding variety of units and combined arms and last but not least make it possible to bring balance.
It just makes me sad, not for my company build, but for tis mod overall.
i agree with you,but i dun wanna get flamed!
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lionel23
Donator
Posts: 1854
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #146 on:
October 20, 2009, 11:15:27 pm »
The arguments have been well-crafted and stated many times by many, many people; yet you time and again dismiss them as if they weren't said.
Your idea, while interesting, is convoluted and confusing with the math, and you're advocating price adjustments but not price adjustments. Use the current system of balancing by a per unit basis otherwise you're nerfing all uses of all units, that's the simpliest and easiest fix, not a total rewrite of the mod. What next, laser guns on KCH's and nukes on Pioneers next (and shut up Computer, I know you want friggin' lasers on their heads too!)
Logged
Congratulations, dear sir...I must say, never before have I seen such precise gunnery displayed. - CrazyWR (on Leaderboard Howitzers)
Computer991
Donator
Posts: 1219
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #147 on:
October 20, 2009, 11:17:49 pm »
Quote from: lionel23 on October 20, 2009, 11:15:27 pm
(and shut up Computer, I know you want friggin' lasers on their heads too!)
DRATSS!!!!
Time to derail the thread out of rage.
Logged
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #148 on:
October 21, 2009, 05:51:40 am »
Quote from: lionel23 on October 20, 2009, 11:15:27 pm
The arguments have been well-crafted and stated many times by many, many people; yet you time and again dismiss them as if they weren't said.
..... What next, laser guns on KCH's and nukes on Pioneers next (and shut up Computer, I know you want friggin' lasers on their heads too!)
To be honest I don`t see any arguments or real discussion regarding certain aspects, or when I replied to certain things, that were stated, there was never a response from the corresponding people. What I want to mention nobody is really discussing what this change would do on the whole battle scenario, especially the major change that spammers would probably have to fight the battle of attrition. which lies at the moment on the side of the spammer`s victim.
That is a major change of the aspect how this game works as a whole and would probably be way more interesting. Nor did I see any suggestions for improvement for the current system what will deal with these issues I mentioned, ět`s just stated that everything is fine as it is regarding dealing with spam, because in game mechanics of COH deal with it.
If Smokaz, Elite Gren, Killer and I Play For Keeps state these comments, I think it`s right from their perspective, but for the average EIR Gamer it`s not. L2P is not the answer. Adjustements should be done already at the company building screen. The situation is a not satisfying at the moment and discussions about people won`t be able to do their current company builds isn`t helping either. Don't count your chickens before they are hatched, but some people are just trying to imply numbers here and there without any reason.
So im repeating myself over and over again, trying to bring some light in some aspects, mayb I`m the maniac street preacher or something, I don`t know, but what I know is that I`m not biased towards certain company builds, or factions. I want a balanced mod, what is fun to play. So here comes the repetition:
The current system has some fundamental flaws:
People spam units that are most cost efficient / efficient. If you increase costs for UNIT A, ok then it`s UNIT B what will be spammed then, because it the most cost efficient unit then. So in the end it will lead to that all unit which are most cost effective for their bang get a price increase. This is a fundamental problem of the system.
The current availibility system does not really work that well. EIR(R) has a long history of spam now and we already have the second availibility system rework in place. But the main reason of implementing an availibility system is still not implemented, to reward people for variety in their company builds.
The Doctrine Abilities and buffs make some units more efficient, so spamming it is encouraged without enough counterweight implemented in the system.
And one other thing is High Level Accounts don`t need PP so much , so spamming really Units beyond the Availibility Pool is not really punished here at all. Especially with UNIT C, which dies rarely it is a valid point. So there is an imbalance, Level 8 Players can spam more and more cost efficent units ( because of doctrine buffs ) more easy than low level accounts , what is not necessary. High Level Players already enjoy Doctrine Ablities, UNits and more ressources.
The current system creates artificial interlayer called unit pools, which is way too general to encourage more variety in company builds. I consider this as an corset unnecessary and inconvenient.
Tactical Gameplay gets more and more into the background, because of this situation.
Measures to fight spam don`t cut it - if most efficent / cost efficent unit is increased in pricing, then the most efficent / price efficient unit will be just another type.
I think in game mechanics in coh don`t deal really very well with the spam problem for the average EIR Player just by saying if it would work so well, why is there so much spam ?
The new system would take care of that - I`m mentioning some points here
:
Most Cost effective Units ( with Doctrine Buffs ) can`t be maxed out in this large numbers, because units in larger quantity getting more expensive. Grade can vary from unit to unit, representing scarcity.
Tactical Gameplay is encouraged and playing with a units mix is encouraged. Tactics should more count than now, now it`s somehow favouring units.
A Counterweight to the increased cost effectiveness of doctrinal buffed units is established.
The gap between High Level Players, who can afford to purchase cost efficent units in greater numbers is narrowed.
The proposed system would be more flexible, more flexible company builds allowed, spamming units comes with a price though, as there would be no more unit pools.
The proposed Avalability System would be easier to understand. Availibility is represented by price and only price. Price Increase cana be represented in Perccent.
Logged
Demon767
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #149 on:
October 21, 2009, 05:59:14 am »
new doctrine's will fix this.
Logged
Generalleutnant of The Reichs Wolves
Nevergetsputonlistguy767
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #150 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:07:36 am »
Quote from: Demon767 on October 21, 2009, 05:59:14 am
new doctrine's will fix this.
No New Doctrine System will fix any issues with the current availability System and Pricing Scheme. Why do you think it will fix something ?
Logged
Akranadas
Honoured Member
Posts: 6906
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #151 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:11:27 am »
Because you have to pay to unlock unique doctrine units
Logged
EliteGren
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6106
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #152 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:12:19 am »
And right now you dont?
Logged
Quote from: deadbolt on December 30, 2010, 09:14:16 am
i prefer to no u
Quote from: deadbolt on July 30, 2012, 08:08:48 am
Don't knock it til uve tried it bitchface, this isn't anything like salads version. Besides u said a semois conversion would never work, now look that's the most played map, ohgodwhy.jpg r u map lead
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #153 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:14:11 am »
Quote from: Akranadas on October 21, 2009, 06:11:27 am
Because you have to pay to unlock unique doctrine units
Pay what ? PPs or Manpower or Fuel or Ammo ? And even if, what will it change about the Cost and Availibility System and its broken design favouring spamming most cost effective / effective units ?
Logged
Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #154 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:19:44 am »
Posting this in its own thread, this one is too is too long and cluttered already
«
Last Edit: October 21, 2009, 06:49:42 am by Smokaz
»
Logged
SlippedHerTheBigOne: big penis puma
SlippedHerTheBigOne: and i have no repairkits
SlippedHerTheBigOne: ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #155 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:34:12 am »
Quote from: Smokaz on October 21, 2009, 06:19:44 am
The result of these flat out buffs not having a additional cost associated like them is what results in teh spam. Why pick 4 rifles that work as six, when you can pick twenty rifles that work as thirty for no cost difference?
This is a different interpretation of tankspirits problem, if you havent realized it yet. I think the source of the problem is the doctrine buffs and not the units themselves.
It`s a part of it yes. The Doctrine system, combined with the current availibilty and pricing system just results in more effective spam. There is no real counterweight to doctrine buffs in the pricing and availibity system at the moment at all, yes. But there is not an effective counterweight against spam either.
But the problem is not only combined with the Doctrines, as you could see in VEIR or currenty in OMG, the spam is there and was there.
There should be a representation, that some units get scarce or are scarce. The representation is the price for example, and if units are really scarce, you have to pay PPs. I have stated many times already why I think paying PPs just for the purchase of the unit does not balance things out.
So this is not a thread about overpowered Units, underred Factions, etc., it`s about the broken situation of the current cost and availibility system. And yes, the current Implementation of the Doctrine System with its most cost efficient passive buffs is making the situation worse, like Smokaz stated, but that`s only a part of the problem as I see it.
Logged
Smokaz
Honoured Member
Posts: 11418
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #156 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:45:14 am »
Changing all passive % buffs that do not cost SP to upgrades that cost company resources would go a long way to mend the problem, dont you think?
You do see the difference between the Carabine player and the Explosive Rounds/Armor Piercing rounds player, right?
Logged
tankspirit668
EIR Veteran
Posts: 129
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #157 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:47:36 am »
Quote from: Smokaz on October 21, 2009, 06:45:14 am
Changing all passive % buffs that do not cost SP to upgrades that cost company resources would go a long way to mend the problem, dont you think?
You do see the difference between the Carabine player and the Explosive Rounds/Armor Piercing rounds player, right?
I think it would not address the whole problem, but it would be a step in the right direction.
Logged
Mysthalin
Tired King of Stats
Posts: 9028
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #158 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:51:11 am »
So there has been not a single post that counters yours?
All of your posts are The Word Of The Almighty That Can Not Be Negated?
Aparently, they are.
Because you failed to even respond to my question about needing at least A-Level maths
before
playing the mod.
Logged
Demon767
Warmap Betatester
EIR Veteran
Posts: 6190
Re: Cost System should be reworked
«
Reply #159 on:
October 21, 2009, 06:52:37 am »
Tankspirit you obviously havent seen the new doctrine rework
All of this availability, Doctrine specific buffs= spam units will be nullified with the implementation of the doctrine rework, so dont get your panties in a knot and calm down it will all be soughted
/thread
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