Cost System should be reworked

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[Smokaz]

Tankspirit you obviously havent seen the new doctrine rework

All of this availability, Doctrine specific buffs= spam units will be nullified with the implementation of the doctrine rework, so dont get your panties in a knot and calm down it will all be soughted

/thread

Ahem..

[tankspirit668]

Tankspirit you obviously havent seen the new doctrine rework

All of this availability, Doctrine specific buffs= spam units will be nullified with the implementation of the doctrine rework, so dont get your panties in a knot and calm down it will all be soughted


/thread

Hope you are right, but docrines are just a part of the whole problem as I see it. I`ve been at the Doctrine Discussion of the Brits, but haven`t seen anything that will deal with the doctrine problem at all, but pricing was not finished afaik.

[lionel23]

So there has been not a single post that counters yours?
All of your posts are The Word Of The Almighty That Can Not Be Negated?

Aparently, they are.

Because you failed to even respond to my question about needing at least A-Level maths before playing the mod.

Notice he's still ignoring your arguments Mys?  Apparently it's not a real argument or an issue worth discussing according to what he says about everyone who has clearly responded and given examples of how flawed his system is, but guess we can't go against the AllMighty right?  

[tankspirit668]

So there has been not a single post that counters yours?
All of your posts are The Word Of The Almighty That Can Not Be Negated?

Aparently, they are.

Because you failed to even respond to my question about needing at least A-Level maths before playing the mod.

In Germany percentage calculation and projection math isn`t A Level Math, it`s also teached in B and C Level Classes. I am not a Believer in God the Almighty, btw, but that is offtopic.  
But you are right I didn`t see that question Lionel. And I don`t think I would do math for the whole company beforehand, I`m not doing it at the moment, also. It`d be a decision if it`s worth for me to get another piece or not.
And if you have a fetish, that`s forcing you to do so, you can probably do it by yourself or the devs build a little helper, but that`s total not in my hands.

[lionel23]

Never even heard of these A, B, and C level classes of 'math', and I graduated years ago.  So we have to become mathematicians now?

[tankspirit668]

Notice he's still ignoring your arguments Mys?  Apparently it's not a real argument or an issue worth discussing according to what he says about everyone who has clearly responded and given examples of how flawed his system is, but guess we can't go against the AllMighty right?  

This is a kind of posting I`d never ever do. Like Confucuis said : Look at the means which a man employs, consider his motives, observe his pleasures. A man simply cannot conceal himself!

[lionel23]

The arguments have been well-crafted and stated many times by many, many people; yet you time and again dismiss them as if they weren't said.
.....  What next, laser guns on KCH's and nukes on Pioneers next (and shut up Computer, I know you want friggin' lasers on their heads too!) 

To be honest I don`t see any arguments or real discussion regarding certain aspects, or when I replied to certain things, that were stated, there was never a response from the corresponding people. What I want to mention nobody is really discussing what this change would do on the whole battle scenario,

And this is the kind of posting I never do either.  I don't make points and 'ignore' valid replies and counter-arguments and go on as if nothing has happened.  Mys brought up a good point and I and a few others have pointed out that your system is too complicated and flawed in a sense that people must have higher level math skills just to think and calculate the ump-tenth power for that 19th rifle squad to figure out if the company they plan to get is actually in reach when they level up to 8 and get their resource bonuses and doctrine abilities.. someone will have to come up with a javascript calculator just to figure out how to build your company at lvl 8 or if you're gimping yourself in the long run just by your suggestion.

[tankspirit668]

And this is the kind of posting I never do either.  I don't make points and 'ignore' valid replies and counter-arguments and go on as if nothing has happened.  Mys brought up a good point and I and a few others have pointed out that your system is too complicated and flawed in a sense that people must have higher level math skills just to think and calculate the ump-tenth power for that 19th rifle squad to figure out if the company they plan to get is actually in reach when they level up to 8 and get their resource bonuses and doctrine abilities.. someone will have to come up with a javascript calculator just to figure out how to build your company at lvl 8 or if you're gimping yourself in the long run just by your suggestion.

Yes I admit the Idea with the calculator is quite gimpy, but I have to say I never ever calculated how much of Unit C I get for what Amount of Ressources before I built a company, but Mysthalin  has  definetely a point there, but I think the benefits of the system are still worth it.

Counterproposals or Suggestion how to deal with the problem generally or specifially with another system or in the current system , like it was done by smokaz is heavily welcomed.  Still is the problem that there is no real counterweight to massively using the same unit types in larger quantities.

[Mysthalin]

So removing 70 percent of the community which happens to not be of the higher than average intelect, and thus capable of taking figures to multiplications of percentages to the xth degree for a nice, good game of chess is worth it? I beg to differ.
Sure, the games will not just feature 24 pawns and 4 rooks against 12 knights, but a nice mix of 8 pawns, 2 knights, etcetera, but it'll result in mirror balance. Sure, there'll be flavorable differences like a paladin instead of a knight, or a duke instead of king, but it'll still be basicaly mirror companies, absolutely killing REAL variety.

[tankspirit668]

So removing 70 percent of the community which happens to not be of the higher than average intelect, and thus capable of taking figures to multiplications of percentages to the xth degree for a nice, good game of chess is worth it? I beg to differ.
Sure, the games will not just feature 24 pawns and 4 rooks against 12 knights, but a nice mix of 8 pawns, 2 knights, etcetera, but it'll result in mirror balance. Sure, there'll be flavorable differences like a paladin instead of a knight, or a duke instead of king, but it'll still be basicaly mirror companies, absolutely killing REAL variety.

Well one thing is calculating while your buiding your company , the company builder will do that for you. The other thing is calculating it on paper before you are going to build it in EIR. And the last one is what all this is about here. I mean we are not talking about IF it makes sense to increase the pricing after each purchase but how.
So my proposal makes things more complicated to make these battalion plans on paper , but not with  the company builder of eir. But the thing is how the costs are calculated is still transparent enaough that people will be able to see why they got more expensive  and how they got more expensive, and that is good enough for me.
I have never ever done any company building planning with ressource calculation on paper ever. And I don`t know how many members of this community do, I guess it will be not so much.

In the overall grand design your scizzing things right with your chess gamey  example, BUT. IF that would be the case I tell you everybody with a high level accounts would do nothing but spam certain units in this current environment, to max out cost effectiveness/ effectiveness and that to a much larger scale than it`s currently done. So I tell you it would not result in mirror company builds. Because players have different strengths and weaknesses regarding micro, players like dislike some units, players have different doctrines, etc. but it will cut down the quantities of units you have in an extreme company build yes. You want use extreme company builds, okay, pay the price. Then the spammer has to fight the battle of attrition, instead of the guy, using a less extreme company build. It`s turing this whole attrition thing around in the other  direction, what is a very cool thing in my point of view.


So how would you increase the costs of each unit after a purchase to keep easier with the company planning on paper ?

How many community members do company planning on paper does it matter at all or is it neglectable ?

Is it a bad thing if spammers have to fight the battle of attrition instead of the guy using a balanced company build ?



 

[Smokaz]

I think a poll about how many people plan out their companies on paper would only be slightly more popular than a thread about how many people have nude pictures of Abbeville hanging on their wall, but lets give it a shot and hope content trumps form yet again! Immediatly post this poll young master Mysthalin, men of science cannot tarry or dawdle about!

[Mysthalin]

I'm not interested in finding that out, because I never do. I prefer the current, simple builder where I think of a theme, and build upon that.

Without having to solve a maths equation of roughly 20 variables.

As I said - I play EiRR. I PLAY EiRR.
Not WORK EiRR, not STUDY for my Math's exam EiRR, I PLAY EiRR.

I'm fairly certain most people feel the same way.

[tankspirit668]

I'm not interested in finding that out, because I never do. I prefer the current, simple builder where I think of a theme, and build upon that.

Without having to solve a maths equation of roughly 20 variables.

As I said - I play EiRR. I PLAY EiRR.
Not WORK EiRR, not STUDY for my Math's exam EiRR, I PLAY EiRR.

I'm fairly certain most people feel the same way.

Yes but I`m wondering why you don`t argue against the system of availibility by price increase , just against  the proposed implementation. Well the basics should be understandable by everyone who is able to do addition and multiplication, price calculation would do the company builder for you. So the building process gets not ore complicated as it is currently.

I thought this mod live a little from it`s community and it`s input. I see the flaw, I point out why I think it`s flawed and propose a way how  I think it would be  fixable.

[Mysthalin]

Which is more complicated for you :

28 - 3x1 - 5x4.
And 8000 - 190*3 - 5*300

Or

8000 - (190 + 190 * 1.05 + 190 * 1.05 * 1.05 + 300 + 300 * 1.07 + 300 * 1.07 * 1.07 + 300 * 1.07 * 1.07 * 1.07)

Simple buying of 3 rifles and 4 ABs.

[tankspirit668]

Which is more complicated for you :

28 - 3x1 - 5x4.
And 8000 - 190*3 - 5*300

Or

8000 - (190 + 190 * 1.05 + 190 * 1.05 * 1.05 + 300 + 300 * 1.07 + 300 * 1.07 * 1.07 + 300 * 1.07 * 1.07 * 1.07)

Simple buying of 3 rifles and 4 ABs.

I tought we were beneath this point now, i mean in the company builder u drag unit a and unit b in your company and you said yourself  you are  not planning your company on a sheet of paper.

[Demon767]

argh cant believe this is being dragged on

[tankspirit668]

argh cant believe this is being dragged on

Yes and comments like that don`t help to bring it to an end, one way or another. 

[Demon767]

My last comment did. but you still want to drag it on pointlessly, there is no point of this thread. it changes nothing because we already have a solution to the problem

[BigDick]

what is the current solution demon? i can't see it.

all i can see is that people like to find some op abilities of their doctrine or some op units and like to abuse them by spaming special units....


and mystalin i wouldn't limit myself so much by saying its to hard to recognize that units get more expensive if they are put into the company

and i find it very insulting to say 70% of the community is to stupid to understand a system where each additional unit of the same type get a slight price increase to dynamically balance spam

[Smokaz]

Exponentials are only known by 30% of the Lithuan people, I guess.