[CW] Recon Section. A Problem or not?

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[NightRain]

First off I'm not biased, I play British (4thRangerDivision), Wehrmacht (NightRain), and PE (Grob88mm), sometimes with US (Grob88mm) if I get a test company up which at the currently reserved for PE

I'm concerned about this unit, both as a user, and as a opposer. Recon squad the british spotter.

Now this unit costs what. 210 Manpower 45 Munition and 2 Pool value and 5 Pop on field.

This squad has several abilities which are:
-Mine Spotting (when stands still)
-Sniper (Marksman shot)
-Counter Sniper (Marksman shot)
-Basic Infantry
-Spotter Squad
-Stealth spotting
-Mark Target

This squad is now the backbone of British infantry, they do all the dirty job a normal Rifle section can not do. As well these soldiers are easy to vet up. With 57xp required for Vet 3 these soldiers get it rather fast.

If I remember right Recon Sections negative effects were slower fire speed and longer reload?

Its no problem if its alone, but what happens if it comes in masses?

British players these day have a habit of having more than the needed 4 of these. With its cheap cost and ability to stand up on its own in combat this makes the Recon section a dangerous squad to fight against.

2 Marksman shots will take basic Axis infantry down to 50%. To Zeal Grenadiers this is a wish come true but to non-zeal infantry it becomes a terrifying fear.
With the most abilities. Mine spotting, Spotting for artillery and all that this squad basically takes away the need for British minesweeper squad. Who uses Demolition Experts in their army nowadays? Sappers with Minesweepers, ability to put few mines and a democharge? So far I've seen no one use this ability because there is no need for minesweepers as recons do the job for them. No need to defuse a mine when you can just shoot it. This leaves the Demolition expert Sapper squad only to plant mines and demos and afterwards they become useless as they have no AT nor AI to speak of.

Players tend to call in 2 Recon squads. If they are commandos they have the famous mark target that gives negative effects for the opposed squad was it increased accuracy only? It comes with a very short cooldown as well. Comparing to Lit up, Area of effect only used by officers that comes with a long cooldown.

Now the recon section is the only spotting unit, this 1 cheap squad can perform multiple tasks mentionated above.

The worst of all is, this squad can perform very well in combat. 2 Recon squads will do well against anything more expensive comparing to their cost. 2 Pzgren squads with Gewehrs have hard time fighting against recons. 2 Snipes, 2 men down leaving it 6 men fighting 10 men. Good Armor and health and vet buffs make Recons even far more effective.

We all remember Mysthalin's was it 25 Recon Company where he ONLY used Recons as his backbone infantry? As RCA you get 26 Pool for Infantry leaving 10 for Reserve. I bet he didn't even have to pay PPs for them.

Now I'm asking from the community, what to do to make Recon squad more balanced?
Leave it as it is?
Increase its cost?
Increase its Pool value?
Move it to Support?
Take away Mine spotting ability?
Decrease its LoS?
Increase its Marksman shot Cooldown but increase ability range?

I'd suggest that its pool value would be increased someway, for its cost this squad performs very very well.

[EliteGren]

Increase pool value.

[Mysthalin]

Oh, it was nice while I had 26 of them. Then the evil EiRRMod set them to 45 mun and 2 pool value .
After that I had 14 of them at vet 3. I eventually got absolutely bored with the company as it was a decided game against anyone unless it was a custom built stack with me having a complete and utter noob on my team. Then it would be almost kind of equal, with the stakes still towards me.

Spent the rest of my reserve pool on, I believe, a stag and to half-pay for a firefly. No PPs necessary, though.

My opinion is that with the removal of Improved Rifling, and a nerf to Mark target, the recon tommies will not be quite as awesome. The removal of zeal (for both brits and terror) should also follow, considering the absolutely outrageous buffs it gives, and the fact that it completely revamps the entire system of how the units using zeal work. This would also help balance out recon tommy spam, as well as terror infantry spam.

One good idea I've noticed at OMG is that they seperate the spotter recon tommies and the sniper ones. Either snipe, or spot - and that seems like a fairly good idea.
Their mine spotting capability should be removed if all of these changes don't help with the situation.

The problem lies not in a low pool cost, but in the fact recon tommies are so damn omni-potent. They can do basically everything - from building trenches to sniping to fighting like a rifle squad. They can even detect mines! Recon tommies really need a nerf.

[NightRain]

Everything like that has been pointed out in the thread's main post. All brits player know how damn good Recons are in the end.
Improved Rifling should be Tier 3, its just that good if not removed entirely.


I'd combine Myst's and Elite's suggestion and my owns.

No Mine detection
Increased Poolvalue
No Zeal
No building abilities

[CommieKillerz]

More than anything, mine detection needs to be removed or either nerfed hard.
1 recon tommies can negate scorched earth T4 mines alone.

[EliteGren]

But so can a 10 muni minesweeper engi?

I never liked the way this T4 was designed.

[CommieKillerz]

engis are Ok, because they are not for multitasking (ie: engaging in combat or scouting)

recon tommies can snipe, fight, scout and mine detect for just tiny price

[EliteGren]

Well so a 10 muni upgrade hardcounters your T4.

Recon tommys need their pool value increased, price raised to 60 munitions and the mine detection should take longer.

[Tymathee]

Recons are fine. Even though they have the snipe ability, that one m an in the sniper squad doesn't fire, sot heir firepower is reduced say vs a regular tommy squad. Improved rifles doesn't increase their snipe range, so you still have ot come into range of any weapon to use it.

then to use the mine sweeping ability you have to stop, so you can still hit a mine before you even know it. Very few people spam these things, choosing rather to go with brens and rifle nades. If anything, the major reason RCA spams them is cuz uhhh, we can't get upgrades on our canadian infantry, so why would we want to use them with no kind upgrade other than to use the healing center.

[EliteGren]

that one m an in the sniper squad doesn't fire,

What do you mean he doesnt fire? Of course he fires.
They only get a few negative penalties statswise.

[bbsmith]

This squad has several abilities which are:
-Mine Spotting (when stands still)
-Sniper (Marksman shot)
-Counter Sniper (Marksman shot)
-Basic Infantry
-Spotter Squad
-Stealth spotting
-Mark Target

Don't worry we have already looked into the Recon Sniper and we have a solution.

There's also going to be a rework on how all mine sweeping units work.

[NightRain]

Alright.

I do hope that Minesweeping WONT be a ability. I feel like I'm the only one with a Pioneer with a minesweeper. No one likes to use minesweepers...people should. They are the backbone of attack and defend. Detect mines. Whole SE t4 is useless in front of a minesweeper squad. The problem why it is so Strong is...NO MINESWEEPERS!!

Solution to PE t4: Minesweeper. If thats NOT enough, get another minesweeper...its only 20 munition mate. With 2 Engy squads. 220 mp 20 mun. GJ T4 neutralized.

Anyway for the Recon, I do hope you guys will find a good, decent, and suitable solution to this unfortunate unit that does tasks even tasks its not designed for (Mine spotter)

[bbsmith]

If you must know. I plan on splitting Engineers into 3 separate units.

The minesweeper unit will be 1 Pop and 1 Pool value. It will only have a minesweeper and no upgrades.

The Flamethrower unit will be normal pop and 1 Pool value. It will only have a flamethrower and no upgrades.

The Engineer unit will be normal pop and have 2 pool value. It will have the Engineer Upgrades (Mines, Mg Nest, etc.)

The prices will also be adjusted.

This also means that PE and Brits wont get free mine detection anymore. They will probably receive a Minesweeper unit.

[Hicks359]

So i wont be able to have my mine placement and clearing call in anymore?

I rather like having a pair of Engineers with minesweepers and mines... Lets you plant your own mines where you clear up thiers, which can be a wee bit harsh for those not expecting it. ^_^

[bbsmith]

Still considering if normal Engineers would keep their Minesweeper and Flamethrower upgrades.

The purpose of splitting the Engineers would be so Minesweepers are more accessible to everyone and cheaper to field. Also you wouldn't be punished by the 2 Pool value cost applied to normal Engineers to prevent spam.

[AmPM]

Hmm...just split off the Flamethrowers, then lower the pool of normal engies.

[puddin]

so the brits and PE get punished instead? 

Currently either its 70 Munions ona  sapper squad or recon tommies for 45 Munitions...  They are recons... The purpose is to handle front line combat...

It makes them worth while...

I am suick and tired of seeing arguments made with doctrine abilities clumpted together like they all come standard... Its bull shit. 

Mark target is a Doctrine ability, It should be removed from the unit or tweaked, its not the units fault it has it.


So lets argue. 

his squad has several abilities which are:
1-Mine Spotting (when stands still)
2-Sniper (Marksman shot)
3-Counter Sniper (Marksman shot)
4-Basic Infantry
5-Spotter Squad
6-Stealth spotting
7-Mark Target

1.) 45 munitions for a spotting unit, Must stand still.  Other option is a 70 Munition on a sqauds thats worthless with those sweepers....  So this unit is required.
2.) Sniper... Shorter ranger so you have to get in range, Powerful, Should have a longer recharge if its a problem.  Itas a seperate ability, That ABILITY needs tweaking not the whole damn squad based on it.
3.) Counter sniper?  Really?  So a sniper that out ranges it and it can not shoot back.  Snipers out range the shot so thats a Null Argument... Any unit will kill a sniper when it gets to close....  Rangers with SMGs or bar rifles have a counter snipe ability then....
4.) Basic infantry.  They can hold their own ina  fight slightly.  ITs nto to great, But basic infantry... YEs.. Volk MP40s can probly man handle them....   so basic is the right term...
5.) They have sight range, Its nice, Sight gets you screwed on the front line as your the first to die to Mortors, Arty, and rushes.
6.) Stealth spotting.  No other unit spots stealth at range... Commando Jeeps, Null argument, its a doctrine ability.  Every other doctrine can spot units at some range, and this unit, Again needs to get close to do it.  can mean death unless its behind friendly lines....
7.) Mark target... Null argument, Doctrine ability. 

So whats the conclusion? 

This unit tackles Mines.. Step to close and boom...
This unit tackles Snipers? No snipers kick their ass uncloak, run away and the sniper wins with range
This unit tackles Stealth? Somewhat, Mp40 squads gets de cloked and starts to rape... Who wins?  Defense against Stomrs with Shreks... YEs... One of the few, What other unit detects stealth? 
This unit has sight?  Yes plenty, And its the first to die from it. 

It seems all the jobs of Basic frontline scouting mine clearing infantry this unit does... IT should be dead and buried long before it is the most effective unit out there.  Its left at the front to do all the jobs that gets everything killed. 

PE having 3 butterfly bomb uses and a t4 minefield thats like a tank rea-ers player complaining when the axis bring infantry hordes.  OR the OBM player complaining when they they feild 10 Shreks... 

The only mines are en massed by Volks, terror, and PE.  You pick a t4 thats random... And you complainw hen its not that effective... Thats funny. 

The unit should not be able to build anything, ITs a recon scout sniper.  its a 5 man squad... IT will get it ass kicked by many things, ITs just versitile... God forbid allies have a versitile unit that can at least survive a fight.

[Tymathee]

I rarely call out more than one recon at a time unless I have some other AI on the field, they're just not that great at it. Yea you can pop a few guys with the sniping ability, in the end it's less powerful than a tommy squad. The sniper ability is a 3 minute recharge i tink.

All in all, i so agree with puddin....why did I just feel a chill when i type dthat?

[Mysthalin]

I rarely call out more than one recon at a time

That's the reason you think they're not powerful. Call out 3-4 of them at once, especially with improved rifling. They'll be able to gun down zeal LMG grens to 1-2 man and then it'll be a choise between running away or getting sniped, rather than the proposed "wish come true". They'll man-handle pretty much every infantry out there, and their sight range will alow to dodge MGs, as well as spot for the firefly/6 pdr that's defending them from armor assaults.

The recharge time is 4 minutes for a vanilla squad, but at 57 exp needed for vet 3, there's more vet 2+ out there than there are vet 0-1s. At vet 3, they get 3 minutes cooldown between shots.

so the brits and PE get punished instead?  

Read what bobsmith said - they'd be getting a minesweeper unit as well.

Also, bob - it's not the engineer defense upgrades that are problematic and spamable, but the flamethrowers at 55 mun and 1 pool cost. I think that 55 mun and 2 pool cost is quite the awesome balance between cost effectiveness and spamability reduction. Mines and bunkers can very well be at 1 pool value - you pay seperate pop for the static MG emplacements, and putting down mass mines would mean no actual combat units on the field .

[NightRain]

I totally agree with Mysthalin there. Btw its 52 xp for vet 3 Myst. I've stated everything one needs to know in the FIRST post. I basically think, Bob already mentionated that this will be fixed someway or another.

I do wish to hear what kind of fix choices people would recommend for this annoying multitask unit