[CW] Recon Section. A Problem or not?

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[puddin]

Mystalin... So your tellign me 10 Pop cap kicks 5 popcap ass.... 


So if i have 2 recon squads vs 2 grens with lmgs... I wonder who will win....

They re not to great, OR how about 2 recons vs 2 MP40 Volks... 

Volks have the ability to...

1.) Kill Infantry,
2.) Kill tanks, Disable them (Faust crits)
3.) Kill Light vehicles/ Disable them,
4.) Slow tanks, (Mines)
5.) Slow Vehicles
6.) Assult Infantry and support wepons (Assult nades with 1.5 times the ammount of men.. So how many... Oh yes 7 nades WITH STUN)

So a Main line units for Where is just as powerfull just even more so because it can handle armor and infantry, With Vet they get more powerfull... 

So Volks i Argue can be just as amazing as a recon section, If one is changed the other needs to be as well.  No they are nor mirror images, But havign so much ability in One unit is what the base argument appears to be and Volks right now how to much versitility and thats a bad thing.

[Mysthalin]

So if i have 2 recon squads vs 2 grens with lmgs

Recon squads would win, and it wouldn't even be a competition. Improved Rifles would make sure of it for the RCA ones and zeal/mark target for the commando ones. Nobody plays RSE, so bringing them up is a moot point.

420 MP 70 MU of generalist utility units beating off 480 MP 150 MU of specialist anti-inf units, or at least being an equal match for them is quite impressive.

The volks scenario you just posted features them costing the following :

65 mu for MP40s.
30 mu for fausts.
20 mu for mines.
60 mu for nades.
A total of just 175 mu per squad. 185 MP.

So for the two squads that can only ward off IR/zeal recon tommies, which have nowhere near the scouting capability and just light AT, you'll be paying 370 MP 350 MU. Personally, I think the 280 mu cost difference(for which you can buy 2 paks and an MG42) not only offsets the 50 MP price difference that favors the volks, but also is a fair enough point as to why MP40 + assault nade volks SHOULD beat IR/zeal recon tommies.

[puddin]

And most of the senarios you all post are bullshit as well. 

But its a single unit, That is versitle.  One of the few brit ones that are.

ITs a msnipe once every 3 mins... Like a canister shot with recharge....  If the unit dies before the 3 mins your screwed. 

So your telling me that a front line unit thats mosre then likly to get targeted, Artied, Morotred first... IS a huge problem?  No i think its an economical defnsive unit. 

Don;t seeto many of them except in Brit Arty companies because Brens are brokena as are other upgrades.  If those were availible they would not be to big a problem as maybe 2-3 of them would be in a company. 

But yea,  Instead of tweaking the units already in play we want different units to play the same roles... 

Ya know what, If infantry stops and sits long enough, it should reveal mines. 

HERES AND IDEA... ADJUST THE TIME IT TAKES TO REVEAL MINES, MAKE IT LONGER. 


just adjust whats there

[Tymathee]

I rarely call out more than one recon at a time

That's the reason you think they're not powerful. Call out 3-4 of them at once, especially with improved rifling. They'll be able to gun down zeal LMG grens to 1-2 man and then it'll be a choise between running away or getting sniped, rather than the proposed "wish come true". They'll man-handle pretty much every infantry out there, and their sight range will alow to dodge MGs, as well as spot for the firefly/6 pdr that's defending them from armor assaults.

The recharge time is 4 minutes for a vanilla squad, but at 57 exp needed for vet 3, there's more vet 2+ out there than there are vet 0-1s. At vet 3, they get 3 minutes cooldown between shots.

I have about 6 or 7 in my company. Who wants to micro all that sniping and then have to sit around and wait until the cooldown to take on another squad?

To answer Puddins question. if both had no vet and no doctrine abilities, you take a recon squad vs an lmg gren, neutral cover, the lmg gren wins evertime. Sure you can sinpe it once but the recon doesn't have the firepower to compete. Now, you go two recons vs two lmg grens, the grens still win. So i dont know whre you're getting this

Here's the problem with what you're doing, everytime you talk balance, you're bringing in doctrine abilities, when the balancing of the unit itself has nothing to do with doc abilities. So, the unit itself isn't that powerful, but the abilities that are added do and also because of its cheap vet. So to balance it, you raise the vet and tone down the doc abilities. The very price of the unit is fine, hell at first i felt like it was over price until I got improved rifling and the ability that gives them more sight, and only then did I feel like they were worth buying en masse.

So we have a unit that can't beat another core unit 1v1 until it gets two doc abilities and even then, in an open field, the lmg gren can still win because despite the fact that its getting fired on irst, the lmg gives a lot more damage in a shorter amountof time, so when it does get close enough to fire, its dmg output will more than make up for it, plus it has about what, 80 h ealth, vs 65 i think for tommies?

Stop brining uip freakng doctrine abilities to talk about the balance of the unit. If you think the ability is OP say so, ifyou think there's a problem with the vet say so, but to say "change the price" of a unit because of its vet or doc abilities, that's just counterproductive because then that unit is still strong and people will just take something out of their company to use the same amount of units they had before and it still wont matter.

[AmPM]

Tym, I am going to quote you on this the next time you cry for an axis price increase.

[bbsmith]

Also, bob - it's not the engineer defense upgrades that are problematic and spamable, but the flamethrowers at 55 mun and 1 pool cost. I think that 55 mun and 2 pool cost is quite the awesome balance between cost effectiveness and spamability reduction. Mines and bunkers can very well be at 1 pool value - you pay seperate pop for the static MG emplacements, and putting down mass mines would mean no actual combat units on the field .

Maybe, but running an army of flamer engineers gives you a greater risk of getting Flammer critted.

[AmPM]

While true, combining cheap low pop high damage units with halftracks is another thing, HT's suppress, unload flamers, party.

The Flamethrowers are the issue with spammable engineer units, nothing else. Normal Engies at 1 pool and Flamethrower engies at 2 pool, both with mines, demo/goliath available and the flamethrowers lacking the Minedetector would work fine.

[Wnb 1337]

Mystalin... So your tellign me 10 Pop cap kicks 5 popcap ass.... 


So if i have 2 recon squads vs 2 grens with lmgs... I wonder who will win....

They re not to great, OR how about 2 recons vs 2 MP40 Volks... 

Volks have the ability to...

1.) Kill Infantry,
2.) Kill tanks, Disable them (Faust crits)
3.) Kill Light vehicles/ Disable them,
4.) Slow tanks, (Mines)
5.) Slow Vehicles
6.) Assult Infantry and support wepons (Assult nades with 1.5 times the ammount of men.. So how many... Oh yes 7 nades WITH STUN)

So a Main line units for Where is just as powerfull just even more so because it can handle armor and infantry, With Vet they get more powerfull... 

So Volks i Argue can be just as amazing as a recon section, If one is changed the other needs to be as well.  No they are nor mirror images, But havign so much ability in One unit is what the base argument appears to be and Volks right now how to much versitility and thats a bad thing.

1. Yes, pretty much. I thought mp40's WERE for killing infantry
2. Destroying tanks.. Right. Ofcourse if its a maingun destroyed sherman with 5% hp, yeah. Maybe if person gets lucky, otherwise he will just waste a faust for engine damage.
3. Eh, sure. Take away few hp's from stag while losing the squad for suiciding it to take out that damn vehicle. How much is that? 30 mun for faust, 65 for mp40s.. Dont seem like an good idea.
4. I have yet to see someone who does use them for that reason.
5. You splitted 4 and 5 just to make your reasoning look bigger.
6. As an blitz player for tier 2, which is uh... Pretty reasonable if you ask me

[Mukip]

The problem with flamer engies being 2 pop is that a Rifleman squad and Engineer call-in is worth 3 pool pop.  I had four such call-ins a while back, a rifle squad with grenade and engineer with flamer and they would have cost me 8 pool pop overall but now they would cost 12 for just a couple of cheap, trashy squads to throw into the grinder.  There's lots of more powerful double infantry call-ins that are only 2 pop overall and Allies alreayd struggle with unit diversity.

I never noticed a problem with Engineer spam.  I used to have 6 Engineers I currently have 0 because of this issue, I need the pop to spend on rifles.

[puddin]

1. Yes, pretty much. I thought mp40's WERE for killing infantry
2. Destroying tanks.. Right. Ofcourse if its a maingun destroyed sherman with 5% hp, yeah. Maybe if person gets lucky, otherwise he will just waste a faust for engine damage.
3. Eh, sure. Take away few hp's from stag while losing the squad for suiciding it to take out that damn vehicle. How much is that? 30 mun for faust, 65 for mp40s.. Dont seem like an good idea.
4. I have yet to see someone who does use them for that reason.
5. You splitted 4 and 5 just to make your reasoning look bigger.
6. As an blitz player for tier 2, which is uh... Pretty reasonable if you ask me

Much the same as Sniping and Counter sniping and basic Infantry as well.  I did that to prove the point you were makign them to be the end all be all of they can do everything when they are at best, Mild infantry with Sight bonus and mine detection.  

THey have 3.
1.( Mine detection
2.) Slightly better sight
3.) Snipe ability once every 3 mins.  Which if the average EIRR game lasts 40 mins, and you call them on first thing, and snipe an axis in the first second, you will get at most... 13 kills from the snipe.  wow, 13 kills in 45 mins...

So basically you split up a bunch to make a total of 7, 4 of which doubled.  

And while Volks might cost more munitions to have all of that, ITs the fact they have the fuckign ability to do it.  How many tanks run away from rifles for fear of stickies... Many do.  Same with seeing 3 volks on the feild, tanks tend to move a little slower as you tend to expect some slow mines.

Also its the fact they can defend themselves against armor or light vehicles is a huge advantage over a recon squad that gets raped by an IHT.

[3rdCondor]

Recon squads pwn 

[Mysthalin]

None of your arguments are actually valid or well based puddin.

You imply that recon tommies are not capable of fighting on their own(at least you removed it as one of the traits of the recon tommy). They're not only capable of doing so - they're quite good at it, especially when in groups. With the inherent nerfs they recieve from being recon tommies, they're still fighting with 80 percent firepower of regular tommies.
Meaning that there are 8 "tommies" fighting for each 10 recon tommies, while the recon tommies still retain the 2 extra men in terms of HP. Claiming that 10 tommies, out of which 2 wouldn't have weapons, do not justify as proper fighting formations is absurd.

You combine sniping and counter sniping as if it were one and the same. Now, shooting enemy units, dealing 1-shot 1-kill damage is sniping. Counter-sniping is the act of killing an enemy sniper in a quick and efficient manner. A 3x Bike callin is capable of "counter-sniping", whereas it is not exactly capable of sniping.

Now, if we split up the bike's capabilities of blocking vehicles and blocking tanks - it wouldn't make a difference. It's simply blocking. Same way how a mine can damage engine tanks, and it can damage engine light vehicles. A tank is a Light Vehicle +1 - a sniper can not be reffered to as a rifleman + 1, as it's a completely different unit.

And while Volks might cost more munitions to have all of that, ITs the fact they have the fuckign ability to do it.  How many tanks run away from rifles for fear of stickies... Many do.  Same with seeing 3 volks on the feild, tanks tend to move a little slower as you tend to expect some slow mines.

You imply that 3 units which can put down purely defensive temporary slow devices are equal to a unit that has offensive engine disabling AT? Frankly - a much more temporary and far less "scary" result at 3 times the manpower cost, while retaining the same munitions cost is quite acceptable in my opinion. I've never seen a tank reverse from volks because they're about to lay a mine on it. Seeing volks forces a player to think more before mindlessly charging and it is extremely different to being FORCED to kite until the rifles are dead.


Your whole argumentation is based upon volks being better than recon tommies for a much larger price.
I mean, ok - who would actually expect 2 panthers, for twice the fuel cost, to be worse than 2 upgun shermans, especially at their designed role - AT. You are indeed fitting that analogy by claiming volks with more than 4 times the munitions cost SHOULDN'T be better.

Also its the fact they can defend themselves against armor or light vehicles is a huge advantage over a recon squad that gets raped by an IHT.

Red herring - this game features and encourages using more than just one unit type on the field at once. How about I send 8 halftracks at your 5 volks with full upgrades? You'll knock out 1 of them with the first 3 fausts, and damage a second. Maybe you'll kill another 2 in the second volley of fausts. You'll still be dead, and I will have only lost 600 MP 60 FU for your 925 MP 875 MU. If you're going to theorycraft to your benefit - I'll be happy to do as much to benefit myself, too.

[Ununoctium]

There's also going to be a rework on how all mine sweeping units work.

Am i the only one that noticed this line?
please don't make us Buy AOE mine removal kits on riflemen. if we use it at the wrong time its a waste it we forget to move them back to our spawn they might die and theyre sitting ducks while mine removing.

(parody on repair kits, imagine grenadiers being unable to move or shoot until their medkits fully heal them.)

If we simple seperate sniping from mine detection we have a win. each squad has a "specialist rifleman" he can't be pro at everything.

[NightRain]

I did notice the fact that minesweeping is being worked. I'm not entirely sure how this will be but giving Brits a minesweeping unit and same to PE is somewhat useful. Mine spotting can be put as a doc ability for RSE and RSE should encourage the use of Demolition experts too.

[Mysthalin]

Good god, read what he wrote.

He said there'd be a 1-2 popcap, cheap, 1 infantry pool engineer type 3-man unit that can minesweep, but nothing else. Also given to PE and CW.

[NightRain]

Good god, read what he wrote.

He said there'd be a 1-2 popcap, cheap, 1 infantry pool engineer type 3-man unit that can minesweep, but nothing else. Also given to PE and CW.

I mean mine spotting as doc ability for Recons for Royal Scottish Engineers

[Mysthalin]

Was reffering to the guy who lost a vet 2 pershing to a StuH, speedy.

[NightRain]

I propose one thing.


Recon snipe never misses its target. It always hits. This can be used to grief axis players by sniping their retreating infantry. I propose to give them a chance to miss like in VCoH. Recon sniper sometimes misses its ability shot. Vs Retreating infantry, in heavy cover infantry and building infantry. I'm aware it is an ability but giving it same values as American sniper would only be fair.

[CrazyWR]

recon snipe misses occasionally in vcoh...not sure if it got changed for EIR though.

[Killer344]

It does miss sometimes here, I don't know if more or less often than the other snipers though.